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Avid is loosing their mind
Old 8th October 2019
  #1
Avid is loosing their mind

I am so exhausted by Avid and Protools.

The subscription service makes zero sense for DAWs. The cost is way too much. It's actually cheaper to go buy an older mac running OSx 10something than it is to upgrade or crossgrade if you're running sessions for longer than 2 years. I just don't understand where they're pulling these numbers from. I don't feel like I would be getting any value out of an AVID subscription because there's no need for it! I should be buying a complete product if I'm paying $300 for it and it should work on more than ONE version of OSx. Also why are they still offering technical support for these packages? Avid technical support might just be the worst on the market. This feels like a company that's trying to forcefully extract every last dollar it can, even from loyal users.

Anyways, rant over. I just needed to vent my frustrations somewhere... Anyone have any other perspectives? Am I being too critical of this subscription service before I try it? Should I just move to another DAW?
Old 8th October 2019
  #2
You should have been around for SONIC and SONIC CARE...makes Avid look almost benevolent.
FWIW
Old 8th October 2019
  #3
Deleted 3284bb9
Guest
I've been a long time Pro Tools user. I don't understand why we get so little new features we get every year. Studio One is a far newer DAW (and to be fair has had more ground to cover) but every release they put out has a ton of new features in there.

The only useful thing I've got from my yearly upgrade plan is the search feature when inserting plugins. And other than that I probably could have stuck with PT12 if it it wasn't for problems with bugs.

I understand they're constantly fighting to keep up with new Mac OS's etc but with the amount of money people pay for subscriptions, new products and updates surely they could release new features more frequently.

I much preferred it when it was "Pro Tools 8". Then they'd release "Pro Tools 9" and there'd be a host of new features, you'd pay to upgrade and that was it. It didn't matter then if it was a few years between versions as long as there were updates to address bugs.

It frustrates me that I'm essentially paying a yearly update fee for them to release a version with barely any changes and then the rest of the year they're release bug fixes which I feel should be free. It's almost like I'm paying them to fix their own software.

I don't think there's any other situation where that would be acceptable. If a gaming company released a game and there were bugs in it, they wouldn't ask people to pay an update fee for it to be fixed.
Old 8th October 2019
  #4
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Aziak's Avatar
Avid is a greedy company, in a terrible financial situation, loosing market share day after day, without any innovation and vision, other than new ways to milk money from their users. They behave like common crooks, grab the money upfront and deliver crap, or nothing for long periods of time...what a joke.
I like the software, but i think i never hated any company, like i hate Avid. I got off their ridiculous "annual plan" a few days ago, didn't give them more cash, instead i gave them my mid finger so they can shove it up their....
I have a perpetual license that will serve me good for some years...FU Avid!


p.s. That was a hell of a vent...
Old 10th October 2019
  #5
Lives for gear
Avid lost its mind a long, long time ago when it went on a madcap acquisition buying spree for over a billion dollars back in 2005-2010. That lot (e.g. SoftImage, Pinnacle and many others) had to be sold off at fire-sale prices. They got rid of all the top creative tech staff and tried cheap staff from Ukraine and then in Poland. We had all the gritty details in a thread lasting a few years in the Moan Zone with many participants claiming that Avid will collapse at any moment - it didn't!

If you look at the pay for the executive suite you can see why they is in no hurry to crash the car! The CEO gets c.a. $5m and several are on $1m - I know a CEO who runs a PROFITABLE company that is TEN TIMES THE SIZE that gets that kind of pay!

The only option they have is to milk the existing market as hard as they can and hope for better times or at least to delay the inevitable for as long as possible. As pointed out above, NLE and DAW alternatives are gaining popularity at a steady rate. If Avid loses those two markets, the rest will struggle to survive.

The institutional holders of shares are all praying for jam tomorrow - they don't understand the NLE and DAW markets. Avid shares are some of the most volatile you can trade, so many people can make money at the expense of others. It can gain 100% or lose 50% overnight on one quarter's results. Madness!

Cove Street sold c.a. $34m at $10 a share when the share price went from $4+ to $8+ more or less overnight (April to May) and some pea-brains called Impactive Capital bought a $25m package in August at $10 a share and now the price is $6+. Madness on a stick!

Last edited by The Byre; 10th October 2019 at 09:45 AM..
Old 10th October 2019
  #6
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Aziak's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
The CEO gets c.a. $5m and several are on $1m - I know a CEO who runs a PROFITABLE company that is TEN TIMES THE SIZE that gets that kind of pay!
Wait a second....this sounds very familiar....
Oh yes... the Thomas Cook that collapsed late-summer, followed exactly the same pattern. Executives got paid with absurdly numbered paychecks and got bonus on top ( ) , from a bankrupted company! I guess that was an internal joke in there.
Avid is at the same course...the signs are all over the place...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
The only option they have is to milk the existing market as hard as they can and hope for better times or at least to delay the inevitable for as long as possible.
As long as there are stupid people who feed them with cash....LOL!


Cheers!
Old 10th October 2019
  #7
Gear Addict
 
TexasCat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aziak View Post


As long as there are stupid people who feed them with cash....LOL!

This is why Avid has survived for so long. Up until recently I was one of them but I kept telling myself "This is the industry standard!".

The last straw for me was the support plan price hike.

The crazy part is that there were people buying multiple years of support to "save" money!

I think Avid will probably be around forever...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aziak View Post
I like the software, but i think i never hated any company, like i hate Avid.
I'm right there with you. I've used Pro Tools literally for decades but now that I've finally switched DAWs I look at them without the rose colored glasses.

If someone bought Pro Tools from Avid and made a few changes though...
Old 10th October 2019
  #8
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Aziak's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCat View Post
This is why Avid has survived for so long. Up until recently I was one of them but I kept telling myself "This is the industry standard!".

The last straw for me was the support plan price hike.

The crazy part is that there were people buying multiple years of support to "save" money!

I think Avid will probably be around forever...

We were on the same "boat" called Avid, heading to nowhere....until my plan is due a few days ago and show them the finger. All my colleagues have stopped paying Avid years ago, some froze their systems in 12HD, others even on 10HD and keep working their studios just fine. Others simply moved to Logic Pro, Cubase or Studio One and saved a ton of cash.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCat View Post
I'm right there with you. I've used Pro Tools literally for decades but now that I've finally switched DAWs I look at them without the rose colored glasses.

If someone bought Pro Tools from Avid and made a few changes though...

Avid must die first for that to happen... they dig their own grave just fine so far...
time will tell.


Cheers!
Old 11th October 2019
  #9
Deleted e09cd8e
Guest
Most of my guitar dude clients use Reaper or Logic depending on Windows or PC. The only dudes still on Pro tools are rocking pre trash can Macs.
Old 14th October 2019
  #10
Lives for gear
Here's an interesting snippet of information -

I read in this week's Sunday Times that the CEO of Barclays Bank, Jes Staley, agreed to a pay cut from $10m to 'just' $5m. That is the same remuneration packages as the CEO of Avid, Jeff Rosica.

There is however a slight difference - Barclays employs nearly 80,000 and has total assets of over $1.4 trillion and has a net worth of $80bn and makes a gross profit of about $4.5bn.

Avid employs just 1,400 and has a net worth of minus $176m and the last time it made a profit was 2.5 years ago.

Avid has no fewer than eight senior managers costing collectively about $10m. Four of Rosica's lieutenants get c.a. $1m each.

There is just no way that any sane board of governours could agree to that situation.
Old 14th October 2019
  #11
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Aziak's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
Avid has no fewer than eight senior managers costing collectively about $10m. Four of Rosica's lieutenants get c.a. $1m each.

Thanks for the info.



A bunch of greedy [email protected], that is.


Regarding that info, this is scandalous for a company with such dept and profit losses a few years in a row. I guess no one cares...much like Thomas Cook until it crashed...oh well...this is the modern world we live.



Cheers!
Old 18th October 2019
  #12
Man, I know this is super basic but it feels so good to know others are feeling the same as I am. I'm in the process of mastering Cubase, decided they deserved my money more than avid. I'll have protools first just to keep fresh on key commands for freelance work but otherwise the studio I own will be primarily cubase.
Old 18th October 2019
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aziak View Post
Thanks for the info.



A bunch of greedy [email protected], that is.


Regarding that info, this is scandalous for a company with such dept and profit losses a few years in a row. I guess no one cares...much like Thomas Cook until it crashed...oh well...this is the modern world we live.



Cheers!
It makes me super sad because I really like protools but I just cant stand a company that's set up like this.
Old 18th October 2019
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
Here's an interesting snippet of information -

I read in this week's Sunday Times that the CEO of Barclays Bank, Jes Staley, agreed to a pay cut from $10m to 'just' $5m. That is the same remuneration packages as the CEO of Avid, Jeff Rosica.

There is however a slight difference - Barclays employs nearly 80,000 and has total assets of over $1.4 trillion and has a net worth of $80bn and makes a gross profit of about $4.5bn.

Avid employs just 1,400 and has a net worth of minus $176m and the last time it made a profit was 2.5 years ago.

Avid has no fewer than eight senior managers costing collectively about $10m. Four of Rosica's lieutenants get c.a. $1m each.

There is just no way that any sane board of governours could agree to that situation.
Jesus... The greed is unreal. Also the board must have ZERO backbone to not realize there's a major issue.
Old 18th October 2019
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted e09cd8e View Post
Most of my guitar dude clients use Reaper or Logic depending on Windows or PC. The only dudes still on Pro tools are rocking pre trash can Macs.
Yep, honestly I'm just going to run parallels if I really need access to protools. If that doesn't work I'll happily pick up an older mac tower.
Old 18th October 2019
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCat View Post

If someone bought Pro Tools from Avid and made a few changes though...
We can only dream of this reality lol.
Old 19th October 2019
  #17
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeAreNotOkay View Post
Jesus... The greed is unreal. Also the board must have ZERO backbone to not realize there's a major issue.
Compensation for the board - 2008

Quote:
Cash Compensation for Outside Directors Our outside directors are paid the following cash compensation for their service:

Board of Directors
Lead Director: $75,000 annual retainer and $6,000 per meeting
Other Outside Members: $45,000 annual retainer and $3,000 per meeting

Audit Committee
Chair: $25,000 annual retainer and $6,000 per meeting
Other Outside Members: $7,500 annual retainer and $3,000 per meeting

Compensation Committee
Chair: $15,000 annual retainer and $6,000 per meeting
Other Outside Members: $5,000 annual retainer and $3,000 per meeting

Nominating and Governance Committee
Chair: $15,000 annual retainer and $6,000 per meeting
Other Outside Members: $5,000 annual retainer and $3,000 per meeting
Compensation for the board - 2018

Quote:
Director Compensation Table for Fiscal Year 2018
The following table sets forth a summary of the compensation we paid to our outside directors for service on our board in 2018.
Name
Fees Earned
or Paid in
Cash(1)
Restricted
Stock Unit
Awards(2) Total
Robert M. Bakish $76,354 $114,759 $191,113
Paula E. Boggs $70,994 $114,759 $185,753
Elizabeth M. Daley $91,623 $114,759 $206,382
Nancy Hawthorne $97,535 $114,759 $212,294
John H. Park $64,250 $114,759 $179,009
Daniel B. Silvers $48,130 $133,936 $182,066
John P. Wallace $86,954 $114,759 $201,713
Peter M. Westley $52,390 $85,854 $138,244
Total compensation for the board in 2018 came to about $1.5m plus expenses.

Perfectly normal sums for any larger profitable company. I can think of many international companies with a market cap of about $2bn and more where the CEO gets $5m and the board gets about $200k each. These are of course companies that are growing, making a profit and building up equity. Shareholders in such companies are only too happy to see the folks at the top being well paid.

You may draw your own conclusions!
Old 29th October 2019
  #18
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
I can think of many international companies with a market cap of about $2bn and more where the CEO gets $5m and the board gets about $200k each. These are of course companies that are growing, making a profit and building up equity. Shareholders in such companies are only too happy to see the folks at the top being well paid.

You may draw your own conclusions!
If I understand correctly, most EU and Japanese companies don't pay executives NEARLY the way comparatively small "American" companies do.

AND the boards tend to insist on at least stability, if more often actual long term performance.
Old 29th October 2019
  #19
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doom64's Avatar
Avid's users lost their minds. I lose gigs because I don't use Avid's products but because audio production is now my secondary business I simply turn them down now.

Lost gigs, kept sanity.
Old 30th October 2019
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike O View Post
If I understand correctly, most EU and Japanese companies don't pay executives NEARLY the way comparatively small "American" companies do.
That is as maybe, but I can find dozens of US companies that are ten times the size of Avid and actually write healthy profits that pay the executive about the same as Avid.

The company I sited in my first post here is a Mid-West US company listed on the Nasdaq and nearly ten times the size of Avid. The CEO began with them straight after school and university and worked his way up. He gets $5m (and some analysts claim that he is being overpaid!) and he took the company from $25 a share to $55. Turnover is growing at 30% and profits are growing at over 12%.

Avid is shrinking and has today just 1,400 employees, it is in negative equity and that situation is worsening.
Old 30th October 2019
  #21
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Mike O's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Byre View Post
That is as maybe, but I can find dozens of US companies that are ten times the size of Avid and actually write healthy profits that pay the executive about the same as Avid.

The company I sited in my first post here is a Mid-West US company listed on the Nasdaq and nearly ten times the size of Avid. The CEO began with them straight after school and university and worked his way up. He gets $5m (and some analysts claim that he is being overpaid!) and he took the company from $25 a share to $55. Turnover is growing at 30% and profits are growing at over 12%.

Avid is shrinking and has today just 1,400 employees, it is in negative equity and that situation is worsening.
I was of course not in any way making a counter point to your arguments. I was rather pointing out that a large portion of our corporate culture does not share the same values (as your example CEO) or over sight that some of the rest of the world does.
Old 6th November 2019
  #22
Gear Nut
 
SilverCrucifix's Avatar
 

What do 1400 Avid employees even DO?
Old 6th November 2019
  #23
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasCat View Post
If someone bought Pro Tools from Avid and made a few changes though...
We've been around the houses on this one on that thread that went on for about four years and although Sony and others were looking at Avid a few years ago, they've all lost interest in DAW and NLE software as a stand-alone product that you can sell for a profit.

Obviously nobody wants to buy the company and the IP is only of interest at fire-sale prices. That means that the company would have to either fail completely (and TBH there is little sign of that happening any time soon - though you never know what is going on below the waterline!) or they would seek to survive by selling off bits and PT could be one of those bits - again, little sign of anything like that happening.

The problem is that Abobe is the Big Beast in NLE and audio just does not pay, so the market is far too small to waste much money on. Adobe does not want MC because it has a far better SW package that has a larger market share. They would be mildly interested in PT as Audition has proven to be a bit of a damp squib in the market.

Grant Petty (Black Magic Design) might be interested in both, but only at a rock-bottom price, as he gives his SW away with the hardware (buy a $1,000 camera and get DaVinci-Resolve for free - or just download the free version!)

That is the reality of the market. You can just about give it away! It is only the projects that contractually stipulate the use of ProTools or MC that are keeping this basket afloat. That island is shrinking.

Anyway, the next quarter's results should be out soon, so you can expect a jump or fall of about 30% - depending on whether the results are above or below estimates. A very small miss the last time lead to a ridiculous 40% fall.

There was a time, a very long time ago, when I was being paid to study Avid and the DAW and NLE markets, but them days is long-gone, so deeper insights from me ain't gonna happen!
Old 6th November 2019
  #24
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doom64's Avatar
I was hoping all this time that Avid's financial failures would result in substantially improved products. That unfortunately did not happen. There must be some senior programmer politics happening that aren't allowing fresh blood to clean out the pipes and replace the pumping stations.
Old 9th November 2019
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
I was hoping all this time that Avid's financial failures would result in substantially improved products. That unfortunately did not happen. There must be some senior programmer politics happening that aren't allowing fresh blood to clean out the pipes and replace the pumping stations.
I really don't know enough about the financials to comment, but as a user PT201x has been the best, most stable release of PT for professionals since PT8.

The memory issues have been sorted; the only real bugs I come across are with things like Autotune (I personally feel Antares have never really got on top of the bugs in their software with PT - I see the same crashes I've seen for several versions!).

If I avoid certain plugins I can track for weeks without a crash or odd behaviour. that simply wasn't the case under 9/10.

So yeah - it may not be a complete revamp but it's a definite improvement in recent years. I'm not the only one saying this!
Old 9th November 2019
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I really don't know enough about the financials to comment, but as a user PT201x has been the best, most stable release of PT for professionals since PT8.

The memory issues have been sorted; the only real bugs I come across are with things like Autotune (I personally feel Antares have never really got on top of the bugs in their software with PT - I see the same crashes I've seen for several versions!).

If I avoid certain plugins I can track for weeks without a crash or odd behaviour. that simply wasn't the case under 9/10.

So yeah - it may not be a complete revamp but it's a definite improvement in recent years. I'm not the only one saying this!
That's really good to hear,!
Old 15th November 2019
  #27
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
If I avoid certain plugins I can track for weeks without a crash or odd behaviour. that simply wasn't the case under 9/10.

So yeah - it may not be a complete revamp but it's a definite improvement in recent years. I'm not the only one saying this!
Back in about 49BC when dinosaurs roamed the Earth and we had PT on a G4, it just NEVER crashed. As in - not once!

OK the code was simpler and shorter and it did less - but all the extra features have added very little (if anything at all!) to my personal workflow and crash-free software is available with CuBase, Reaper, Nuendo, Logic and most others. Just saying!

Anyway, the Q3 results came out a week ago and because the results exceeded expectations and estimates by the tiniest of margins, the share price went nuts again and shot up by 30% (went from $6+ to $8+, only to drift back down to $7+). Estimates for Q4 are very optimistic but are roughly in-line with Q4 results from last year.

If you are looking for an absurdly volatile stock to play with, Avid is it!
Old 19th November 2019
  #28
Here for the gear
 

When you buy a DAW you are really investing in the developers, which is why I can answer in one word: Reaper

Do an audit of Cocko's updates and track record. You can learn any new DAW, support and learn one that does right by it's customers.
Old 26th November 2019
  #29
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jojoB3 View Post
When you buy a DAW you are really investing in the developers, which is why I can answer in one word: Reaper

Do an audit of Cocko's updates and track record. You can learn any new DAW, support and learn one that does right by it's customers.
Not for me. Justin may lose interest in a snap.

Without repeating the criticisms one often does hear about reaper (amidst the hail of positives), the day Justin does a Bob Lentini....well.....

At any rate....yes....the developers....track record...forward motion....deep-pockets support.....

That really can only mean one name. Since 1984 or so.

Steinberg.
Old 29th November 2019
  #30
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post

That really can only mean one name. Since 1984 or so.

Steinberg.
God no, left the berg long ago. Pale in comparison to Cocko's devs.
Decent for midi work though.
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