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Roland hate
Old 3 weeks ago
  #121
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Originally Posted by Doc Asbury View Post
Haha well Kakehashi did make a few colossal blunders (like taking away all the knobs & sliders and copying the Yamaha DX7 "dumbed down" look)
In 2019 it is a blunder sure, but at the time, it's what musicians wanted. I think you're underestimating how big of an impact that the DX7 had on the synth market. Some odd sounding futuristic looking synth that did perfect keys and funny bass sounds had more musical relevance than big old creaky VCO monsters that were a pain in the butt to keep in tune or even carry. There's a reason why all the American synth manufactures crashed and burned in the early 80s.

The aforementioned JD-800 which was probably a passion project from Roland engineers who were/are just as enthusiastic about total control as we are, was more or less a flop.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #122
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DrJustice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flowthrough View Post
While this may be true, I submit that Roland "Borking" is quite real.

It is as Arglebargle stated:>
" Most Roland products have a fatal flaw, to my estimation (a GS myth...). And usually it just seems like an incomprehensible decision. "
...
It would truly be a myth that Roland are the only ones borking. The borks they might have aren't fatal either - I, or my inspiration or music, have yet to die, or even suffer, from using a Roland synth, and no Roland synth has died[1] from me using it

The very early pioneering gear, from the age when the bork-scope was not yet created or discovered is innocent in this AFAIC.

However, all gear (synths in particular - I guess that's the subject) is borked in some way or another. There is no perfect synth. That goes for every synth I've seen from every manufacturer. There's bork everywhere. The specific bork points are of course largely subjective. Every single synth I research, try or own has borks in my view.

Does it matter? Not a lot. There's just so much cool gear. We're spoiled for choice. And we're spoiled for bitching about little details of any given synth, that might not matter at all to the next person, too often focusing on some "favourite flaw". I'm guilty as charged, as are all of you


[1] IME, Roland/Boss gear is some of the most durable, but I digress...
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #123
Gear Nut
 
Doc Asbury's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by space skeleton View Post
In 2019 it is a blunder sure, but at the time, it's what musicians wanted. I think you're underestimating how big of an impact that the DX7 had on the synth market
No underestimation here; having grown up in the 80s and being blown away by the first synth that could do a piano sound without making people laugh, I totally give the DX7 its due. My gripe is with Roland trying to copy the surface design without having committed to the digital engine under the hood. The result was the JX (an otherwise incredible analog synth) that was watered down because Roland wanted to trick people into thinking it was digital. And they succeeded unfortunately. To this day a lot of people take one look at it and think "digital". That's the blunder I was talking about. It was a blunder in 1983 just as it is in 2019. But I'm not complaining because with the digital confusion over the JX series I wouldn't have been able to afford an analog Roland synth otherwise
Old 3 weeks ago
  #124
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synthguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoia View Post
Well, Behringer has a long history too, basically 3 decades
Yeah, in court, and someone has to say it every once in a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Asbury View Post
I just wish everyone across the board, all synth makers, would realize that digital doesn't make us happy.
Uhh... is this sarcasm here? Because I guess something else that must be said is that the digital musical technology FAR outsells the analog music technology, so someone is plenty happy. Me for one, because an analog version of a Radias, Virus or Accelerator would probably cost as much as a Moog One. And there are no analog samplers or romplers, so good luck getting a decent piano sound from an analog synth.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #125
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flowthrough's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
The borks they might have aren't fatal either
Not going for that 5th note on the Boutique eh?
- or expecting 8 notes out of a product that says "8P" either.

It's like buying a hot dog expecting Ketchup and Mustard (standard in the US of A) but getting an oversized bun, slim dog, and lined with Horseradish.

fatal? no

surprising? yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
There's bork everywhere.
and yet theirs often outshines

(though that elusive 5th octave of keys is plaguing most manufacturers these days)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
Does it matter? Not a lot. There's just so much cool gear. We're spoiled for choice. And we're spoiled for bitching about little details of any given synth, that might not matter at all to the next person, too often focusing on some "favourite flaw". I'm guilty as charged, as are all of you
absolutely spoiled*.

for the record- I am as much a fan of their work as a detractor
*I own and use the V-Synth, JD-XA, FA-07, and D-550.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #126
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DesolationBlvd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by flowthrough View Post
Not going for that 5th note on the Boutique eh?
- or expecting 8 notes out of a product that says "8P" either.
Is that a reference to my avatar?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #127
Gear Nut
 
Doc Asbury's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy View Post
Uhh... is this sarcasm here? Because I guess something else that must be said is that the digital musical technology FAR outsells the analog music technology, so someone is plenty happy. Me for one, because an analog version of a Radias, Virus or Accelerator would probably cost as much as a Moog One. And there are no analog samplers or romplers, so good luck getting a decent piano sound from an analog synth.
Zero sarcasm. I was talking about innovation. Digital was awesome, and I use my fair share of John Bonham samples that analog synthesis could never surpass. My point is if we're talking about the NEXT evolution in sound generation, then someone needs to come up with something that surpasses digital bits & bytes. We've topped out at 24 bit 96k pristine waveform replication, and if someone wants to be as groundbreaking as the tonewheel was to pipe organs, or the VCO was to tonewheels, or the CPU was to the VCO, then engineers need to start thinking beyond digital. That was the spirit of Kakehashi - always looking to the next step.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #128
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Physical modeling+granular is where it's at. V-Synth was a great first step, but was barely accepted when it launched.

There's much more here Roland can, and will do over time, I'm sure. Plus they had a pretty damn great series of samplers way back when, too, whether S-760 or much later, the MV series. Was deep stuff.

Mike Acosta of ADSR here should know; he was one of the heroes to the MV community when that was rolling, when he was at Roland.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #129
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Mastropiero's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by flowthrough View Post
Not going for that 5th note on the Boutique eh?
- or expecting 8 notes out of a product that says "8P" either.
Yes... I felt deceived when first played the D-50 and realized it hasn't a 50-note polyphony!!! In fact, and according to that logic, it should have 100-note because the JX-3P is a 6-note polyphonic synth.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #130
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breakmixer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdvancedFollower View Post
Yeah I was tempted to buy one too. Unlike the other Boutiques, it's nearly identical to the real thing, no real compromises in terms of polyphony or features or even user interface (not that the original had a great interface...). However in the end I didn't want to spend the money and use up two audio inputs for what is essentially just a plugin in a box, with the same terrible programming interface as in 1987.

I would gladly pay $199 for a perpetual license to the plugin version of the D-50, but of course, Roland being Roland, they won't just sell their plugins like normal companies do.
I'm using a DAW to sequence and my main audio interface utilizes Asio4all so does the Boutique D-05 so in my case the Boutique is streaming it's audio direct to the DAW and I'm not using an external mixer channel for it, I'm also one for buying a digital VST synth over hardware, but I'm not renting from the Cloud. I'd rather this compact hardware, I may buy the DTronics controller for it if work picks up again soon...I bought the little dock for it too.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #131
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DrJustice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flowthrough View Post
- or expecting 8 notes out of a product that says "8P" either.
I know. It's horrible! The travesty! And what does the P mean?

Probably why I sold mine. And the JX-10... 12 voices and no P - what's with that? I had to sell mine, not once but twice[1].

It's so good that we can have a proper moan about these things


[1] My two biggest regrets in gear sales, that's the moan back in the real world :-(
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #132
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syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastropiero View Post
Yes... I felt deceived when first played the D-50 and realized it hasn't a 50-note polyphony!!! In fact, and according to that logic, it should have 100-note because the JX-3P is a 6-note polyphonic synth.
So, if I'd bought that JP8000...
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #133
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Mastropiero's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
I know. It's horrible! The travesty! And what does the P mean?

Probably why I sold mine. And the JX-10... 12 voices and no P - what's with that? I had to sell mine, not once but twice[1].

It's so good that we can have a proper moan about these things


[1] My two biggest regrets in gear sales, that's the moan back in the real world :-(
That explains a lot! The JX-10 stole the 2 voices missing on the JX-8P.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #134
Gear Nut
 
Doc Asbury's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
I know. It's horrible! The travesty! And what does the P mean?

Probably why I sold mine. And the JX-10... 12 voices and no P - what's with that? I had to sell mine, not once but twice[1].
I know, THE NERVE. They called it "Super JX" but the damn thing doesn't even fly.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #135
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64gtoboy's Avatar
"First World" problems
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #136
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
People can complain about the Aira esthetic and weird roland choices all they want - After my initial scepticism, I've been completely won over on the integrated system - MX-1/TR8/TR8s/tb-3/System 8 are just huge amounts of fun to jam with as a system, and still light and easy enough to drag out to a gig, without the associated vintage nerves and setup headaches.
Assuming everything is hooked up via the Aira usb ports on the mx-1? If so, any issues?
I love jamming on my tr8/tb3/mx1 - looking forward to throwing the mc-707 in the mix, maybe the s8.
Thanks
Old 3 weeks ago
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpe View Post
Assuming everything is hooked up via the Aira usb ports on the mx-1? If so, any issues?
I love jamming on my tr8/tb3/mx1 - looking forward to throwing the mc-707 in the mix, maybe the s8.
Thanks
Yep all 4 into usb, midi out to pyramid.

BSii, tx7, Peak and digitone/digitakt(chained) into analog

Digital in gets a stereo submix from an AH with my modular, mic and Ipad.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #138
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Wave View Post
I've had a love/hate (mostly love) relationship with Roland for about 35 years. I probably own more Roland gear than any other single manufacturer. Sometimes they do things that make me scratch my head, like using an unstable glue in the key weights of the JD800, which eventually dripped down onto the keybed and contact strip, making it necessary to buy and install a whole new keybed assembly for $400. They also used cheap components like the two line LCD displays in their late 90s products, which had to be replaced. Such is life.

But their triumphs IMO greatly outweigh their tragedies. I still love my D-50 32 years after buying it, and my Alpha Juno 1 33 years later. I thought they rehashed the JV sound engine concept for a bit too long (JV1080/2080, XP30/50/60/80), but they got it right with the XV line. Some of their proprietary features were kind of gimmicky (D-Beam). I still like the MC505 and MC909, though the MC307, DR2, and MC808 again left me scratching my head. I never liked the SH-201 or Gaia SH-01. The latter isn't even a true VA. But the JP8000 and JP8080 are still wonderful synths. It's as if they REGRESSED in VA offerings after the 90s through the early 2000s.

Meanwhile the V-Synth is still one of the most inspiring synths I own, and the Integra 7 is one of the most powerful tone generators ever made. I'd been saying for years that they should just release a module with all of the JV and SRX sounds, and they finally did it. The JD-Xi and JD-XA are also two great ideas that are underrated.

I also think ACB is great. The System 8 is currently one of my favorite go-to synths for retro Roland sounds. It even satisfies an age old desire to own a Jupiter 8, though it does a lot more. I also own a number of the Boutique synths and drum machines. They're fun and cheap to own.

I think over the past 20 years or so Roland has faced two dilemmas. One dilemma has been their tendency at times to pander to low end users and release products like the GAIA instead of the kinds of instruments that pros would favor. The other dilemma (for some) is the company's commitment to digital technology during this renaissance of analog synthesis. Roland through ACB found a way to bring back their classic 80s synths without going analog. Some rightly see this as a missed opportunity on their part. I can understand Roland's desire to see digital emulation of their classic synths as a way of moving forward, even if companies like Behringer are cashing in on it.
I think that’s actually a smart move. Behringer is clear cutting the Amazon, Roland is planting bamboo. Once the world is filled with Behringer’s clones... what’s next? Roland will be able to take what they’ve learned from developing their technology and put it into altogether new and different things...

If they’re smart.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #139
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7Wave's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
I think that’s actually a smart move. Behringer is clear cutting the Amazon, Roland is planting bamboo. Once the world is filled with Behringer’s clones... what’s next? Roland will be able to take what they’ve learned from developing their technology and put it into altogether new and different things...

If they’re smart.

TBH, I actually like the way that Roland recycles their ideas into different configurations. Eventually they release the configuration that I like, and that's the one I get.

Experience has taught me to wait when Roland releases something radically new.

Sometimes it's frustrating when you're an early adopter and then a year later Roland releases what that product should have been in the first place.

Their first generation Fantom, for example, was a major misstep -- a workstation without a sampler at a time when ALL major players had workstations with samplers (Triton, Motif, Kurzweil K2600). Within a year or so, Roland released the Fantom-S. I didn't actually buy a Fantom until the Fantom X came out a few years later, but I knew several people were kind of miffed that Roland did that.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #140
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the donal's Avatar
I think part of what I see with the criticism of Roland is based around expectations.

As has been mentioned, Roland's journey has been committed to making realisting sounding instruments with their keyboards or performance tools. The analogue gear could only go so far. BUT by accident, synth classics were created due to the way they sounded and how they got used.

The fact that they use the old synth names for new ranges that are sometimes far away from the originals (think the Junos of old and the current Junos) creates expectation then disappointment from the fans of the old analogue gear.

I think they've missed a trick by not investing more into the current analogue market but I'm sure it's still a niche part of what they produce. The digital pianos, workstations, digital drums and performance keyboards are surely their bread and butter.

But they still do make great sounding instruments. I think often it's a case of forgetting what you want it to be and focus on what it is (like so many things in life!).

I rarely felt particularly drawn towards Roland gear, but now owning the Juno DS-88, SE-02 and D-05 I've kind of been pulled in!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #141
Quote:
Originally Posted by the donal View Post
I think they've missed a trick by not investing more into the current analogue market but I'm sure it's still a niche part of what they produce. The digital pianos, workstations, digital drums and performance keyboards are surely their bread and butter.
This
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #142
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Well, one thing I am about 99,999% sure of is that as far as haters go, may they be R or B haters, the CEOs of both companies laugh all the way down to the bank praising them for the amount of attention drawn to their loyal customers and future potentials. They are part of the system whether they like it or not.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #143
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the donal's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by IncarnateX View Post
Well, one thing I am about 99,999% sure of is that as far as haters go, may they be R or B haters, the CEOs of both companies laughs all the way down to the bank praising them for the amount of attention drawn to their loyal customers and future potentials. They are part of the system whether they like or not.
Yup. I'm personally really happy with what Behringer are doing- making erstwhile expensive and difficult to get (and maintain?) vintage synths accessible to more people via their recreations. At the end of the day, you won't stop a company doing what it does and if that company is successful with it, then they will continue. Best to make the most of things and synth away!
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