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Roland hate
Old 3 weeks ago
  #91
Lives for gear
 

People can complain about the Aira esthetic and weird roland choices all they want - After my initial scepticism, I've been completely won over on the integrated system - MX-1/TR8/TR8s/tb-3/System 8 are just huge amounts of fun to jam with as a system, and still light and easy enough to drag out to a gig, without the associated vintage nerves and setup headaches.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #92
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flowthrough's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post

“Roland hate” is a myth. An internet myth.

Out in the real world, there are millions of musicians using and enjoying Roland gear every day.

There is no “widespread hatred” of Roland gear.

It is a myth.
While this may be true, I submit that Roland "Borking" is quite real.

It is as Arglebargle stated:>
" Most Roland products have a fatal flaw, to my estimation. And usually it just seems like an incomprehensible decision. "

While that may not be to the level of "hate" per say, it is a common thread of dislike (with an accompanied astonishment/facepalm).

4 voice boutique, no round-robin, bizarro limitations....

again, the "Bork" is real.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #93
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maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flowthrough View Post
again, the "Bork" is real.
Oh, for sure--and I've even said so myself.

In another thread, with regards to the new Jupiters I recently wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
I only hope that whatever “gotchas” lie in store are workable—because you know they’re gonna be there.

This is a point I concede to the Roland bashers. Too often, Roland will do something brilliant, then somehow f*** it up.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #94
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synthguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdvancedFollower View Post
To me, they seem to have plenty of keyboards aimed at "Pros", but it's mostly boring ROMpler stuff and workstations for the proverbial wedding band player and commercial jingle producer.
These intranet memes, so popular but so silly.

Since they began showing up with multimode resonant filters, workstations have been able to provide us musicians with fairly convincing vintage synth, organ, piano, drum, bass, guitar, orchestral... everything sounds, at a fairly reasonable price. I listened to a few of your tracks, and all of them could have been produced completely with one Roland XP-80 with a couple of expansion roms. That's not a knock on your music, which is pretty tasty, but rather a testament to how powerful a mid-90s workstation still is. They're studios with a keyboard attached, capable of whatever you want, from polka to prog rock to industrial.

By the way, I'm only going to mention in passing what a bad thing it is to have a music tech company which is the commercial equivalent of China. I hope they get to enjoy their small little corner of the market like Microsoft and Electronic Arts, two other companies many of us see as market piranhas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNC View Post
I think Roland should push their digital ACB technology as far as they can, improving and innovating in that area, more modulation, making what’s not possible with analog. Who cares about analog remakes? Are we in the 80’s?
I think you must have missed the splash the Prophet~6 and OB-6 made a few years ago, and are still rippling the waters. There's definitely a place for them.

But I agree with you as a VA lover that digital technology can give us analog-like sound on the cheap, and with tons more flexibility. One thing I'm going to start harping on is for Roland to develop an ACB/ZEN-Core software version of the venerable System 100 and 700 Modulars, programmable with a software app like the Nord Modulars. Can you imagine how incredible that would be to have in an update to the Jupiter-X or Fantom? And the Fantom has the touch screen interface which would allow you to program it from the front panel. Roland's VA filters already sound very good. I don't think it would take all that much work to give us something like this, and with pretty decent polyphony to boot.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #95
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cogsy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
Oh, for sure--and I've even said so myself.

In another thread, with regards to the new Jupiters I recently wrote:
The bait and switch on the MC707/101 seemed fairly underhanded. The initial messaging was "The 101 is four tracks of the 707" which would have been an instabuy for me. The control surface is small, but it would be worth it for good functionality. Then it comes out that it doesn't have sampling, much of the sound sculpting engine, layering, filter control per voice, worse screen, etc.

That moves it out of the category of good deal and into the category of "This could be accomplished just as well on an ipad with a $20 app"
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cogsy View Post
The bait and switch on the MC707/101 seemed fairly underhanded. The initial messaging was "The 101 is four tracks of the 707" which would have been an instabuy for me. The control surface is small, but it would be worth it for good functionality. Then it comes out that it doesn't have sampling, much of the sound sculpting engine, layering, filter control per voice, worse screen, etc.

That moves it out of the category of good deal and into the category of "This could be accomplished just as well on an ipad with a $20 app"
So go do that.

Your art installation in Baltimore..... not so great, sorry to say.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #97
Gear Nut
 
Singleton's Avatar
There's pent up demand for analog and analog remakes and Roland (whether or not they want to) play a part in that. It seems quite odd btw that demand for analog synthesizers meets criticism here considering that people buy instruments for completely different reasons and purposes. Nobody in their right mind would argue that JP8 when new, would have been better for gigging than the JP80. However by comparison: a brand new Ford Mustang is in every way technically superior to a 1960s Shelby Cobra, but that doesn't stop people from paying a lot of money for kit remake versions in lieu of the unattainable original.

Roland could certainly do better - what Behringer are doing now releasing clones of classics at the prices of VST plugins would have seemed almost implausible some years ago and if they can do it, Roland should be able to do it as well. However, I think the explanations given here that it doesn't fit Roland's business strategy or the Japanese corporate culture are easy to accept. I don't think Roland deserves any "hate" if there is such a thing.

Btw do people hate on Sequential for releasing all kinds of things except a clone of a Rev2 Prophet-5 at the original price of $3,995?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #98
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StefanEdberg's Avatar
 

Roland is like Microsoft always Releasing **** that is either Crippled or Not Wanted!
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #99
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by time_zone View Post
I really think that those who denigrate Roland have the same motives than those who denigrate Behringer: the pleasure of putting down something/someone.
Yeah, there are those primitively motivated by the psychology of projection and its eternal benefits. As if R and B threads just popped up on their screens forcing them to stray around the threads instead of just taking the hike.

Then there are the ambivalenties like me who struggle with a love/hate relationship corresponding to the scope of products Roland can come up with; from utterly nonsense to true pearls. It is a little more complex issue in this regard like all ambivalent relationships, e.g. marriage.

Then there are the rational people who just buy now and then and skip the threads.

And at a certain point we reach the fanbois division to whom a Jupiter is a Jupiter if Roland says so, and God have mercy on those who think anything else.

It is trivial all of it, really. Amazing it can turn into a thread like this and amazing that we bother to write in it. Oh ambivalence, Roland is thy name.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #100
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy View Post
Since they began showing up with multimode resonant filters, workstations have been able to provide us musicians with fairly convincing vintage synth, organ, piano, drum, bass, guitar, orchestral... everything sounds, at a fairly reasonable price. I listened to a few of your tracks, and all of them could have been produced completely with one Roland XP-80 with a couple of expansion roms. That's not a knock on your music, which is pretty tasty, but rather a testament to how powerful a mid-90s workstation still is. They're studios with a keyboard attached, capable of whatever you want, from polka to prog rock to industrial.
Thanks and I agree, any decent workstation can produce fairly convincing vintage synthesizer tones, but they aren't as fun and inviting to program/edit sounds on. The various Roland VA engines seem to be really good, at least in recent years (*cough*Gaia*cough*).
My main issue is that it seems almost every time Roland tries to bring out a synth with a classic, knobby/slider-y interface with near one function per knob, it's a massive compromise in some other way - tacky, plasticy, miniaturized, low polyphony, strange limitations and omitted features. Why not an $800 - $1,200 true Jupiter or Juno clone using ACB, with 8-note polyphony, full size faders etc. It would be great competition to the Hydrasynth, Argon8, Minilogue XD, Prologue, DeepMind, Peak etc. If those other companies can do it, why not Roland? Of course those synths could be considered unnecessary toys, but they're well-built quality toys that inspire and let you create sounds without having to dive through menus, poke at touch screens or use a pair of tweezers to move tiny sliders

Of course Roland has put out some gems, like the System-8 (haven't used one, but it seems awesome), D-05, JD-XA and so on. Heck, I even own an SE-02, which I picked over the Boog because of the patch memories and Xmod. Still, even that has some baffling design decision, like the Master Tune being jammed in with the other oscillator knobs so you keep accidentally knocking the entire synth out of tune, and of course, it's tiny. Because making it a more normal size without weird compromises like everyone actually wants would break some ancient Roland tradition or whatever
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdvancedFollower View Post
To me, they seem to have plenty of keyboards aimed at "Pros", but it's mostly boring ROMpler stuff and workstations for the proverbial wedding band player and commercial jingle producer. Roland still seem to view analog synths and even digital synths with lots of knobs as "toys" that belong in the lower-end market, miniaturized to the point where only children can play them comfortably (Boutique), and preferably made of cheap plastic (SH-201, Gaia). "Real" keyboards are supposed to only imitate real instruments.
[...]
? If you wanted serious during the SH-201/101 era they had V-Synth (albeit not knobbiest), and now they have SYSTEM, JD-XA, and new JUPITERs.

They cost, because serious synths cost, and they don't have vintage styling* because Roland's general style is futuristic.


*New JPs aside, but I'm pretty sure that's an answer to those who don't like the Tron look.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #102
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

The varied quality of Roland gear can really be a challenge to some. I really like when someone goes what-the-heck and takes the challenge:

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Old 3 weeks ago
  #103
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Well done!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #104
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyBox View Post
? If you wanted serious during the SH-201/101 era they had V-Synth (albeit not knobbiest), and now they have SYSTEM, JD-XA, and new JUPITERs.

They cost, because serious synths cost, and they don't have vintage styling* because Roland's general style is futuristic.


*New JPs aside, but I'm pretty sure that's an answer to those who don't like the Tron look.
I think the biggest reason they cost is because Roland make you pay a premium for the brand, though. There are lots of "serious" synths that cost much less. I can't see how they can justify selling the Jupiter X for $2,500, or why the rather small Xm with its mini-keys and reduced control surface would cost $1,500, similar to the price of a Rev2.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #105
Gear Nut
 
Doc Asbury's Avatar
 

Roland has always built good gear, but the creative element changed when Kakehashi, the soul of Roland, retired in 2002 and eventually passed in 2017.

So just like UREI/Universal Audio after Bill Putnam died, or [Fender] Groove Tubes after Aspen Pittman sold, or Rhodes after Harold Rhodes died, the entire design mentality ended and started over with the new crew. In all of these cases I think the companies are doing a decent job of reissuing the old ideas, but I have yet to be blown away by anything truly new. So unfortunately I think the 10 year Roland rule has ended, as far as classics go.

Unfortunately, creative genius can't be simply passed on to the next generation. Ever heard a masterpiece by Mozart's son?

And also... there is NO SANCTUARY.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #106
Gear Addict
 
SidneySheldon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuggaMahone View Post
Oh that's because they design the future. They should design the present if they want people to like them immediately. It's the one flaw in their plan...
Then, it's a murky future


Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
Amen, brother!

I’d like to say “Thanks for writing my post!” but I can’t.

First, it’s better than what I would have written and second, I wasn’t planning to post in this thread.

“Roland hate” is a myth. An internet myth.

Out in the real world, there are millions of musicians using and enjoying Roland gear every day.

There is no “widespread hatred” of Roland gear.

It is a myth.
It's not.
Well,I don't think people hate roland. It's just todays rolands management is a bunch of cretins who lived in their own deluded world. And people laugh at this idiocy, And Uli even makes money off this.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #107
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synthguy's Avatar
People are strange. Ask why Roland doesn't make this or that, and in the same post, list off several things that Roland has made like "that."

This is just one of those things when a company makes a product. With just a little experience under our belts as consumers, a lot of us become instant marketing consultants explaining why we would have done things a lot better. Why does Roland makes certain things at those prices? Well, they know how much they spent on R&D, how much on design work, how much to make the stuff and how well traditionally they have sold. They price stuff so they can make a profit, to pay bills, and fund the next wave of R&D, etc.

Why did Yamaha sell the Montage 8 for four grand? And a few years later it's still four grand? I dunno, it's not even a workstation, just a rompler with FM stapled in, but that's what it costs. I don't grouse about it because I hope at some point they use those billions to make a new actual synthesizer like some of us are speculating might show up Sunday. Or a killer workstation with some nice digital synths on board like an EX5 sequel.

Companies do what they do. But if they won't make a Ferrari at Ford Focus prices year after year, continuing to ask for it will just make you unhappy.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #108
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Asbury View Post
Roland has always built good gear, but the creative element changed when Kakehashi, the soul of Roland, retired in 2002 and eventually passed in 2017.

So just like UREI/Universal Audio after Bill Putnam died, or [Fender] Groove Tubes after Aspen Pittman sold, or Rhodes after Harold Rhodes died, the entire design mentality ended and started over with the new crew. In all of these cases I think the companies are doing a decent job of reissuing the old ideas, but I have yet to be blown away by anything truly new. So unfortunately I think the 10 year Roland rule has ended, as far as classics go.

Unfortunately, creative genius can't be simply passed on to the next generation. Ever heard a masterpiece by Mozart's son?

And also... there is NO SANCTUARY.
To be honest I think Kakehashi has to much to do about everything at Roland. Still today!
I have an interview here in a Swedish music mag from when the MC-303 was released. They asked him why it was not analog and his answer was that "We are looking into the future and we can now emulate all that". Seems to be the way Roland still operates...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #109
Gear Maniac
 

They use this mod stick and have apparently not invented the wheel yet.

At least they did so when I bought my only Roland +20 years ago. Seems like they still do.

The XP10 had plenty of fun in it for a young amateur in 1997 with zero budget. I really got a lot of weird sounds out of it diving into the menu using 4 buttons and a 2 line display. But that I had to keep one hand on the mod stick because it had a spring in it was a pain in the a**.

Second I think there’s a lack of soul, but that’s not very specific.
Attached Thumbnails
Roland hate-146ee8cb-67da-4c36-8a8c-3888cbc9b823.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #110
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Bad Machinery's Avatar
 

Whatever you do, you must choose sides. Either hate or love (*you* get to decide!) but we will allow no ambivalence in this matter.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #111
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DesolationBlvd's Avatar
What frustrates me about Roland is that sometimes they can get it right, but most of the time, they "bork" it as someone else before me put it. The System-8 is a worthy successor to the JP-8000, but even then I'm confused about the lack of band-pass filtering. I'm just waiting for them to release the rack version so I can upgrade from my JP-8080. Their Boss division is also on the right track. They released Waza versions of the CE-2 and DC-2, and I went for those rather than the Behringer version of the DC-2, which is now under the TC Electronic name and unfortunately mono.

As for the Boutiques, I'm just scratching my head at how they made the SE-02 real analog and still have the SH-01A be digital. I'm thankful that the D-05 doesn't have reduced polyphony.

If only the JD-XA had one more octave on its keyboard and one or two more boards of analog voices, and the Roland filter on there had a 12dB mode, I would sell my Jupiter-8 for it and pocket the extra cash. Four analog voices isn't enough to fully play. It's like they expect you to use those voices for four monophonic lines and play the digital part, which isn't what I want.

It sounds like the new pretenders to the Jupiter name are a watered-down ACB on top of the SuperNatural stuff? Not for me.

I don't do plugins, but if I did, I would rather be able to buy rather than have to subscribe.

Last edited by DesolationBlvd; 3 weeks ago at 07:40 PM..
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #112
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daviddever's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by time_zone View Post
I really think that those who denigrate Roland have the same motives than those who denigrate Behringer: the pleasure of putting down something/someone.
Unlike Behringer, Roland has nearly five decades of right-steps to compare against. Let's not muddy the waters.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #113
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flowthrough's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninecows View Post
They use this mod stick and have apparently not invented the wheel yet.
They found the mod wheel eventually (see attachment pic)....

but then their 'usual consultant' got into the design ....


Attached Thumbnails
Roland hate-jdxadual.png  
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #114
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maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninecows View Post
The XP10 had plenty of fun in it for a young amateur in 1997 with zero budget. I really got a lot of weird sounds out of it diving into the menu using 4 buttons and a 2 line display. But that I had to keep one hand on the mod stick because it had a spring in it was a pain in the a**.
I’ve never used an XP-10, but I see it has a pedal input that will accept an EV-5 expression pedal. Could this not be used to bring in and hold modulation while you play the keys with both hands or use pitchbend?
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #115
Gear Nut
 
Doc Asbury's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drglas View Post
To be honest I think Kakehashi has to much to do about everything at Roland. Still today!
I have an interview here in a Swedish music mag from when the MC-303 was released. They asked him why it was not analog and his answer was that "We are looking into the future and we can now emulate all that". Seems to be the way Roland still operates...
Haha well Kakehashi did make a few colossal blunders (like taking away all the knobs & sliders and copying the Yamaha DX7 "dumbed down" look) but I guess the gamble is to strike new oil instead of rehashing the old. I just wish everyone across the board, all synth makers, would realize that digital doesn't make us happy. If the want to look to the future, then even digital is past it's prime.

Here's the future, and I'm sticking to it...

Old 3 weeks ago
  #116
Gear Nut
 
Singleton's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Asbury View Post
Haha well Kakehashi did make a few colossal blunders (like taking away all the knobs & sliders and copying the Yamaha DX7 "dumbed down" look)
But they corrected this with the JD-800, right? Pure Roland genius at that time.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #117
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
I’ve never used an XP-10, but I see it has a pedal input that will accept an EV-5 expression pedal. Could this not be used to bring in and hold modulation while you play the keys with both hands or use pitchbend?
Most likely. But as I wrote I had zero budget back then. Like really zero. I got the xp10 at a real bargain as it was smoke damaged from a fire in the shop. It was my trusty companion through my poor high school and college years until it crapped out after 10 years of faithful service.

Then I finally had the money to buy a real synth - the Kurzweil PC3X. A very unfair comparison, but build quality, design and possibilities was light years ahead of the XP10.

But did it improve the quality of my music? Not at all. Now I just waste my time gazing at all the possibilities and is not forced to be creative... like using my nose or knee to control the mod stick

So for that I’m really in a love-hate relationship with Roland. Sole less and with such a bad design choice (mod stick), but aaah... the music we made together...!
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #118
Lives for gear
 

try playing a convincing electric guitar patch with a pitch wheel....

fwiw, i do not have the stick as my personal preference, but i can 100% see WHY they have it and can observe folk using it to perform like you simply can't with two wheels.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninecows View Post
They use this mod stick and have apparently not invented the wheel yet.

At least they did so when I bought my only Roland +20 years ago. Seems like they still do.

The XP10 had plenty of fun in it for a young amateur in 1997 with zero budget. I really got a lot of weird sounds out of it diving into the menu using 4 buttons and a 2 line display. But that I had to keep one hand on the mod stick because it had a spring in it was a pain in the a**.

Second I think there’s a lack of soul, but that’s not very specific.
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Old 3 weeks ago
  #119
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever View Post
Unlike Behringer, Roland has nearly five decades of right-steps to compare against. Let's not muddy the waters.
Well, Behringer has a long history too, basically 3 decades, but if you mention something of their "history" prepare for some proper sh!tstorm
Old 3 weeks ago
  #120
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic38 View Post
try playing a convincing electric guitar patch with a pitch wheel....

fwiw, i do not have the stick as my personal preference, but i can 100% see WHY they have it and can observe folk using it to perform like you simply can't with two wheels.
I would not do that. I would ask a guitarist to play the part instead ;-)

Second reason why I would never do it is because I’m too crappy.

These guys do a pretty good job though:



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