Right. That’s basically what I’m talking about. I know product development is really difficult and something like communication with future customers can be low on the list of priorities, but I’ve seen it done well, and I’ve seen it done poorly. I don’t think Waldorf is really great at it, but they’re great at other things. Maybe investing in some sort of media relations person would be a good idea. I hereby volunteer. All you have to do is send me one of each of your product line.

True, but infants also don't take up a lot of resources compared to a grown up.

Well no, you'd maybe have 2 left by that time. Infants suffer the most mortality. And then after those first years you'd have an extra helping hand every couple of years. Sadly that doesn't mean those older kids will survive and become adults.

Sure, but you didn't mention any of those. You were just talking about the amount of kids as if that is the simple solution to all their problems.
As i said, you're reasoning from the luxurious position of the west. You base your opinion on your experience with VIP passes and Universal Studios and apply that to countries where having enough drinking water is a problem. How ****ing twisted is that?

I think it's not as simple as that. At all times in our development we had to adapt to our surroundings and thus our environment had as much an influence on our development as ourselves.
The fact that we settled meant that our food sources became much less varied. And because of that lack of variation meat became more important in our diet and we started a selection process that prefers people who like meat more. Not because we wanted, but because we had to. So it's more than just a habit or a choice. Some people will struggle to refrain from eating meat.

"Some"?

The majority of humans would struggle.

A full half will vehemently resist.

Bank on it.

But nothing prevent us to drastically reduce out meat intake, even stop it.

A bird can't stop eating bird food and start eating meat. Nature doesn't allow it. We can choose, not based on instinct but on social necessities, common good, culture.

I've eaten meat my whole life, almost daily and I enjoyed it while I did. But I've chosen to stop. And I'm not some kind of stoic hero.

And just to take a step back on the conversation, we were talking about public vs. private transportation. I believe that's even easier for us to change than food habits.

Speaking of Child Mortality numbers..

Back in 1990 approximately 12 million kids age 5 or less died each year. However, due to advances that number has dropped to approximately 5 million per year in 2016 (still... a staggering 15,000 children under 5 die each day, on average, in 2016), more than half of which is due to basic nutritional failings and the like.

Sounds great, right? Fewer babies dying each year is a good thing, generally. I certainly agree.

But what's also true is that these modern advances mean (that in addition to all normal demands upon the planet and resources due to normal population growth) there are nowadays approximately 7 million *more* babies surviving *each year* now than in 1990. And today we're nearly 30yrs into those advances, so that change alone added about half of the US's population to the world in just the last 30yrs just via one vector that's wholly aside from normal population growth.

Now, also account for adults living longer...

We, humanity, via science and general knowledge and wisdom, are living longer now longer than ever before, and fewer kids under 6yo are dying eaxh year, fewer than ever before, and this phenomenon and these numbers are growing each year, again - separate from normal population growth rates, these are extras... and it's a growing trend.

Whatever the answers to these broad and large topics are, they're neither easy nor obvious, and they certainly won't be solved by Burger King and fake meat nor by vegetarianism in general, and rest assured - things like this - any changes that impact that many people - they move slowly, and most of us won't even live long enough to see much of it change substantially.

Some other MFers will be having a bery similar conversation in 2119 and the like.

I hope I'm still alive to see it.

I’m also confident that we will indeed change these habits if we just pass along the true costs to the consumer. Artificial subsidies to prop up industries that would struggle in an open market aren’t useful in the long run, because they only forestall the inevitable.

In dense urban environments, owning a vehicle becomes prohibitively expensive because the subsidies can’t do a thing about parking costs and the horrific traffic snarls that ensue when everyone tries to drive a single-occupancy vehicle. As a result, we’re seeing a generation growing up in some areas that don’t see much value in owning a car.

So are we actually prohibited from discussing the Kyra in here now? Is that off off-topic?

People cramming in dense urban areas is more of a problem than the rest, and there's no easy fix to that either. People/society needs to spread the F out more. De-urbanize more. Aggressively, even...

Fwiw I've lived in downtown lofts/apartments in big cities around the US and world, and out in the boonies too, and in regular suburbs, all as an adult, so my own perspective is based on all sides of first hand experience. And I like both downtown and the boonies ("hate" the suburbs, myself), generally speaking, each for different reasons.

Mass Transit is a fantastic supplement. I genuinely love it. But never, ever, ever, ever at the expense of a privately owned, 24/7/365 available, vehicle. That's "crazy talk". nearly half of what I do on a weekly basis wouldn't even be possible without one.

Want to solve the parking and traffic problem in major cities, limit how many can live there (limit the nunber of apartments and houses). Limit how many big companies who employ loads of people can be there. That's infinitely more likely than trying to get rid of privately owned vehicles.

Half of the Silicon Valley or San Francisco based companies ought to move to wide open Nebraska or something. Same for NYC and Paris and other cities... TONS of room, and lower costs of living, and so on. They don't NEED to be in California or NYC for example, they simply prefer to. Ive been all over France and the US. It's mostly empty AF, and with telephones and internet - hardly a real problem, logistically speaking.

Further, cramming everone along the coasts, with the natural weather issues that brings along with it, and the financial burden on everyone when we have to clean up and rebuild areas, for the 10th time (looks at Houston), also should be curtailed, and those true costs passed on to those who choose to live in Hurricane zones, or known Flood zones, and the like.

But no, you don't hear much if anything about those kinds of equally viable and logical solutions.

We (humanity) aren't even having real, open, and complete conversations about it, that explore all possible solutions. Instead, some (not referring to anyone here) keep pushing specific ideas as though any of that's been decided.

Sorry. It's just not that easy. And no real analysis has been done, as far as I'm concerned. Only piecemeal bits littered with strong opinions.

But that's not enough.

Let's talk about diesel (fuel) consumption for a moment, just in one area...

...There are approximately 10,000 commercial container ships in operation, worldwide, today.

10,000 of them... Motoring around the world, carrying everything from nonsense like fidget spinners to produce to iPhones to vehicles and a kabillion other items, crisscrossing the world.

And just one typical container ship (of ~10,000 of them) uses more than 100 TONS of diesel PER DAY, 100 F-ing TONS, which is a consumption rate equal to that of MILLIONS of privately owned vehicles. Millions of them. Every single day. x10,000 or so ships. Day after day, year after year, over and over and over.

And how much of that stuff being shipped around the world everyday is even remotely necessary? And mind you, I'm about as much of a free market lover as one can be, but do we need thousands of different toasters from dozens of sources, and so many more examples of superfluous nonsense?

No, certainly not. And must these ships be powered by diesel? Nope. And does it really matter if someone's new iWhatever or any other non-perishable item takes 180days to arrive as opposed to 30? Nope. Not even a little.

The worldwide phenomenon of constant consumption and consumerism is the elephant in the room. Frankly, I LOVE my Galaxy S8 phone, love it, but I didn't NEED a new phone, at all, in the last several years.

Nor did I need a new computer. The music computer I had 10yrs ago worked perfectly fine for almost every use case.

Yet in that time frame, I and more than a Billion othes, got new phones, computers, and countless other nonessential just because we wanted them.

So let's step back and get a realistic grip. There are many, many ways to solve the world's issues. And almost no one is even looking hard.

You keep calling different point of views "crazy talk". Trying to engage in some sort of conversation with somebody with that kind of attitude will not lead anywhere.

So I respect your points, I disagree but I won't waste my time talking with you.

One thing I’ll add is that while I’m all for a nice steak, I’m really interested in Impossible Burgers. First off, they’re good. I tried one (not at BK) and it was more or less a good burger experience. I know it’s better for the environment... probably a bit better for me... so, why not? I say, save meat for good steaks, but sh!tty burgers? Who cares? I’ll go veggie.

Suit yourself.

(shrug)

Taking such things personally is a choice you're making, and an unnecessary one at that.
Assuming they're insults or even aimed at you, much less that they're indicative of anything bad, is also on you. I can't be bothered to be offened or annoyed by such inconsequential trivialities. They're words. And I'm substantially more resilient than to be offended by that sort of thing.

What's a sh!tty burger? Fast food or something? I don't eat fast food, at least not 99% of the time, and when I do I rarely eat a burger. More so, I only have a burger or three a month, maybe, on average, usually grilled at home. I, and most meatatarians I know, don't even eat enough burgers for it to matter. And the burgers I eat, most of the time, are of no less quality than any other cut of meat, it's simply in a different form factor. Equally delicious as a steak, only different.

Regardless, I haven't had an Impossible pattie yet, but I've had several (7-10 maybe) different veggie burgers over the years (dating vegetarians and one vegan over the years, often shopping at a whole foods or TJs or regular stores), grain based and whatnot, and I don't hate them, they're just a different thing. Apples and Oranges, really. I'm sure I'll have an Impossible at some point.

Further, I grew up eating fresh venison and fresh fish most of my life. My parents never bought ground beef for years, we ate ground venison, from deer we'd taken ourselves, a sustainable and necessary practice to control over population, and I grew up barely barely middle class. Any and all nicer things in my life have come in adulthood through loads of hard work and long hours.

Anyway, the entire US population is less than 5% of the world's population. Some of these suggestions and practices are tantamount to peeing in the wind, results wise. They're nice notions. Thoughtful gestures... I'm super cool with people eating and living however they like in most every way, but most of this stuff is little more than a blind stabs in the dark, mixed with wishful thinking, mixed with flexing ones virtues and the like. And most of it, unfortunately, makes very, very little difference in the outcome.

We (humanity) would be perfectly fine if no one ever made another music instrument again. There are already enough guitars, pedals, and amps in the world for everyone, basically. And this is true for so, so many other things in modern life. And it all matters... And no solution is worth a damn that doesn't take all of this into account. Yelling Fire and expecting immediate action isn't helping anything. We don't need posturing. We don't need bandaids. We neee fact based, well researched, widely discussed, real solutions. And that's not coming from the Moan Zone...

And on and on and on.

It takes no more time than the time it takes to type this stuff to poke so many holes in most popular strategies that they become figurative colanders or window screens. It's considered "fool's errands" because they don't actually accomplish substantive things. It's considered "crazy talk" because some of it wholly ignores the needs and wants of many millions of others.

And this isn't a formal discussion nor an academic environment, this is a virtual pub, full of - presumably - adults, and the only reason conversations like this aren't also littered with numerous F bombs and spilled beers is because of the language filter here and the virtual nature.

We're at a bar talking, basically, and that's what you get - pub talk.

I've spoken no differently than I would in most other situations. Attacked no one. Call no one any names. Literally nothing I've said is personal. Never raised my voice. Blah blah. And I'll not bother explaining that again. Shouldn't even have to.

Pardon the typos, riding in the backseat of a car...

Maybe we can re-project the discussion and talk about the studio space that is needed for owning a Kyra..?

Good point but it doesn't even starting to cut the mustard.
We have been living, for close to 100 years, in a world of planned obsolescence.
This means that just about everything produced is produced in a way so that it will predictably break within a certain amount of use.
That is by far the most wasteful endeavor in the history of mankind.
The amount of resources we throw away for no good reason is simply staggering.

No, you’re totally right. What I did say earlier is that reproductive rights is just a part of the equation. We have a huge problem with consumption levels, especially here in the USA. Part of it is our fault, but there’s also a corporate side of things where the government is manipulated to allow for things to be subsidized, either directly or indirectly. So, on one hand, my taxes are going towards corn subsidies which makes beef prices artificially cheap and beef unhealthy. On the other hand, we close our eyes and pretend that our stuff isn’t being made in sweatshops or by robots. Many of the people who facilitate this are also the ones yelling about public welfare being evil. We went perfect produce 365 days a year, but if the person who picks it isn’t a US citizen, they must be punished. If they are a US citizen, they must accept a wage that puts them well under the poverty line. Gotta keep those Whole Foods shelves stocked! Jeff Bezos needs another Leer jet. But don’t tax him! That’s socialism! MAGA!

See, what you wrote is all good, but I think you are a small percentage of meat eaters. We don’t really eat burgers much either. The time I had an Impossible burger was after a school event when we just went out with another family for social times. We don’t hunt our own venison (though our back yard was filled with deer this morning!) but we buy only grass fed beef and do as best we can to eat responsibly farmed meat and produce. You know, typical liberal cuck, grill’n with my wireless headphones on, rocking some NPR..

But when my wife and I visit our families, it’s a totally different world. They could easily afford to consume more responsibly, but they choose not to. Heads firmly in sand. Little or no recycling. When they come to visit, you can tell they think we’re crazy for composting. It’s not a generational thing, because my wife’s 23 year old cousin has been living with us for over a year and if no one’s looking, she tosses food scraps in the garbage and even though there’s a perfectly excellent glass jar of organic grape jelly in the fridge, she goes out and buys a plastic squeeze tube of Welch’s. There’s almost never a day that goes by when there’s not a box from some retailer bringing clothes that she stuffs into her already bursting closet. Her drawers are so full that she continually bursts the drawers apart from her cheap IKEA furniture.

Anyway, I suspect that those people... are the norm. They are Americans, at least a large majority. Nothing will stop them from continuing on their life styles until the sea levels rise and it’s too late. I don’t blame them, they’re just being human, but I do blame the people who have set things up this way just so that wealth can get ultra concentrated.

Indeed.

My pereonal concerns and priorities largely lay with big topics like Regulatory Capture, grotesque Double Standards, the Ruling Class (all sides), Corporate Fvckery, Excessive Waste, over Taxation, an ever growing and out of touch Government, Mandatory Minimums for nonviolent sorts, and For Profit Prisons, and the putrid and vile exception to Slavery in our own Constitution, and other topics.

And basic junk like Littering fires me TF up. I tore into a cousin of mine mine last month who has a habbit of dropping and crushing cigarette butts in public. He'll be mad for months, but I don't care.

We (humanity) have *substantially* more Top Down problems than we do Bottom Up problems. I'm more concerned with the Forest than any given Tree, and I'm not the sort who takes little nibbles at giant problems. I haven't the patience or time for that, in these contexts.

I want, expect, and demand to see change, important and meaningful change, from the Top and the Ruling Class and Corporate Overlords, especially before I'm changing a MFing thing of substance.

We're the Dog, they're the Tail, and I won't be wagged by others. Not ever, not even for a minute. And most of this other stuff, it's mostly a distraction, and one intended to keep people from tarring and feathering the POSs who govern us, POSs on all sides. And I won't be distracted.

(gawd do I hate that insult, cuck, and incel, of late)