The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
Okay GS, did the Katy Perry jury get it right or not?
Old 30th July 2019
  #1
Lives for gear
 

Okay GS, did the Katy Perry jury get it right or not?

Not a Katy Perry fan, myself, too pop, not my thing at all, whatever, and I'm certainly not a fan of Christian HipHop, so both of these songs were 100% unknown to me before about 10min ago when I read the AP article about her side losing this court case, then went straight to YouTube.

This is / may be a landmark, game changing, ruling if it holds up.

Here's the deal:

This dude and his peeps say that she and her peeps stole this beat and trap-ish synth bit from the first ~30sec of this 2009 song of his:



And this is her song, Dark Horse, "a hybrid of pop, trap and hip-hop sounds that was the third single of Perry’s 2013 album “Prism,” spent four weeks atop the Billboard Hot 100 in early 2014, and earned a Grammy nomination for Perry, who performed the song during her 2015 Super Bowl halftime show."

Fast forward to 1:18 for the supposed stolen bits:



Quote:
But in a decision that left many in the courtroom surprised, jurors found all six songwriters and all four corporations that released and distributed the songs were liable, including Perry and Sarah Hudson, who wrote only the song’s words, and Juicy J, who only wrote the rap he provided for the song. Perry was not present when the verdict was read.

Other defendants found liable were Capitol Records as well as Perry’s producers: Dr. Luke, Max Martin and Cirkut, who came up with the song’s beat.
https://www.apnews.com/7eef738596e9458eacb9f9015d7fd7fe

I mean, there are certainly some similarities.

But...

What do you think?
Old 30th July 2019
  #2
Lives for gear
 

That is excellent news! Screw Katy Perry and commercial pop studios for constantly co-opting original music from the underground and turning it into sugar coated turds for mass consumption!

F**k the system!
2
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #3
Lives for gear
 
aleyas's Avatar
 

Honestly, that Katy Perry riff reminds more Moments in Love by Art of Noise than that Flame song. I've been hearing Dark Horse in shops for years now (never knew the song name or who it was by till now) and everytime that beat drops I always think "lifted straight from Art of Noise"

I'm not in the know or anything, but I thought the influence of this song on modern hip-hop was kind of ubiquitous.



edit: On a re-listen, the phrasing of the 2 riffs in question is nearly identical. I do still think that the voicing was influenced by AoN however.
7
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aleyas View Post
Honestly, that Katy Perry riff reminds more Moments in Love by Art of Noise than that Flame song. I've been hearing Dark Horse in shops for years now (never knew the song name or who it was by till now) and everytime that beat drops I always think "lifted straight from Art of Noise"

I'm not in the know or anything, but I thought the influence of this song on modern hip-hop was kind of ubiquitous.

Proto Trap, from '84.

(They're great. Long time fan.)
2
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #5
Lives for gear
 
tricera's Avatar
 

I was just reading about the ruling. It's three notes for ****s sake. Ridiculous.
10
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #6
Lives for gear
 

I mean, I sort of agree - no real sympathy for or interest in Perry in general, her people, or giant Labels, etc, but this may (pardon the pun) have serious reverberations throughout the music making, sampling, and interpolation worlds, all of which crosses paths with Electronic Music in many ways.

That jury is also holding responsible "Juicy J" (laughs), whose sole contribution to the Perry song was writing their own rap they rapped, and Capitol Records, and others.

What's next, holding the intern who was the Pro Tools monkey that day responsible too?

In no sane world is "Juicy J" guilty of a damn thing in this, even if Perry and her beat makers knowingly stole it. It's like a kangaroo court, group punishment, and not good in any real way.

The case still has to go to penalty phase. I don't know what latitude the Judge has to unscrew some of the kookiest bits like lumping them all together as equally guilty, or will it have to go to appeal?

This isn't about Perry or Pop music, not really, it's about the threshold for what constitutes "the same" or "similar enough" to be a theft, and how they're all being held responsible.

It's unprecedented, I believe.
4
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #7
Deleted ea69e11
Guest
not really close imo. surely if your over 40 you've heard something like that trope/motif(not sure if either is the right description but style sound) many times

the art of noise comparison is spot on, but i think other people have done stuff similar
1
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
The case focused on the notes and beats of the song, not its lyrics or recording,
Quote:
Her (Perry's) attorneys argued that the song sections in question represent the kind of simple musical elements that if found to be subject to copyright would hurt music and all songwriters.

“They’re trying to own basic building blocks of music, the alphabet of music that should be available to everyone,” Perry’s lawyer Christine Lepera said during closing arguments Thursday.

The defendants’ musical expert testified that the musical patterns in dispute were as simple as “Mary Had a Little Lamb.”
The goalpost has been moved, by a jury, not experts or professionals, but by regular folks whose expertise is not in these areas.
1
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #9
Gear Head
 
JesperS's Avatar
I guess the rapper is not that Christian after all

http://www.deadlysins.com/greed
1
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #10
Anything related to IP law in this country is so unbelievable bat**** crazy.

As far as I'm concerned nothing should be illegal unless it can be demonstrated convincingly in court that the defendant is somehow hurting the plaintiff's ability to financially benefit from their work. And the thing about that that's also insane, is that sampling and musical allusions and so forth by popular artists so often draws attention to the original artists and songs.
3
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #11
Lives for gear
 
cogsy's Avatar
 

Heard this in the car on the way to work this AM. Unless you are playing the same notes in the same order (or same notes intervals in a different key), it's not infringement. This goes back to that idiotic Blurred Lines case. You can't copyright a vibe (hell, you can't even rigorously define a vibe), a feel, a groove, a sound, or a set of instruments in an arrangement. I have no love for Katy Perry or Robin Thicke, but this is just plain dumb.
4
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #12
Lives for gear
C'mon guys get a life ffs. Katy is an amazing artist with t*ts- uh...i mean- vocal chords that make everyone smile. She's also an accomplished flute player

2
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #13
Gear Addict
 
Arcana's Avatar
 

The vocal in the intro goes 'you know what it is' on both songs - or 'y'all' for Dark horse if we have to be precise. But I think that's very unlikely to be a coincidence.
2
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #14
This isn't about whether Robin Thicke or Katy Perry are brilliant musicians, it's about the sheer stupidity of the judgements against them. I wouldn't feel any differently if it were Tom Jenkinson being sued for using the "Amen" break in 800 songs. It's just as dumb as when Negativland were taken to court.
1
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #15
Lives for gear
 

And let's be clear - law is based on case law and president, and if this case holds up on appeal, the "new normal" for "theft" in this context will surely cause others to sue for equally specious "thefts", and remember, this Perry song came out in 2013.

Hordes upon hordes of tracks and artists and producers and labels and guest cocalists or rappers wiill be similarly vulnerable to similar suits if this becomes the new norm, over many years worth of releases. Whatever the statutes of limitations are, they aren't short... the opportunity to sue lasts for years, and futire cases will easier b/c of the lowered standard.

This is a big problem.
1
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #16
Not a Katy Perry fan but this is reaching. Did she ever end up stealing that house away from those nuns?

Anyway, nothing is more insane than the George Harrison "My Sweet Lord" thing. That one was a reach, too.

https://ultimateclassicrock.com/geor...rd-plagiarism/
1
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #17
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Ever since I found out that she has a cat named Kitty Purry, I’ve decided that she can do no wrong. Plus, she’s nice to look at.
5
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #18
Lives for gear
 

What is with the schadenfreude in this thread?
1
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #19
Lives for gear
 
shreddoggie's Avatar
I have been beating this drum as long as there have been threads about it.
There is no theft in music - the entire notion is indicative of the person holding said opinion being very ignorant about how music works, about its history and literature.
2
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #20
Lives for gear
 

**** riff. But also the Katy Perry one doesn’t finish on the same relative note, it’s a semi tone flatter. Different scale.
Old 30th July 2019
  #21
This has happened to me, but I dont know if it was a coincidence or not. I was/still am a huge fan of sparklehorse. I put them as an influence on mp3.com back in the day when I was very active musically. I posted a song in 2003 or so, with that influence tagged. Then in 2006 he released dreamt for years in the belly of a mountain. The song "knives of summertime" is the exact same chord progression and melody as the song I posted in 2003 tagged with sparklehorse as an influence. Other people agreed. I figured that I was too obscure to be blatantly ripped of, and it wasn't an overly intricate or complicated chord progression/melody. But it was exactly the same. So either we shared the same headspace at that time, or he heard and knew I was obscure and ripped it off. But then I think he is a pretty good songwriter, why would he need my mediocre help? I guess I should have sued?

As for Katy Perry, and pop music that rips off other music. That has been the formula since day one. I would argue, however, that pop music usually boils the original idea down to the least common denominator to make it more palatable to the masses.
Old 30th July 2019
  #22
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason moyer View Post
Anything related to IP law in this country is so unbelievable bat**** crazy.

As far as I'm concerned nothing should be illegal unless it can be demonstrated convincingly in court that the defendant is somehow hurting the plaintiff's ability to financially benefit from their work. And the thing about that that's also insane, is that sampling and musical allusions and so forth by popular artists so often draws attention to the original artists and songs.
Yeah, that worked so well for The Winstons

Really, this stuff should be far easier to sort out these days than it actually is. But that would require an industry full of immature men growing up instead of rehashing misinterpretations of Proudhon and reckless entitlement.
Old 30th July 2019
  #23
Deleted a3c6337
Guest
Voicing from Art of Noise. Notes from Flame.

Katy Perry - seventh note is different each repeat from Flame, everything else is the same in a different key.

Not sure how I feel. Don't really care because I'd never make anything that sounds like that
1
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinital View Post
Voicing from Art of Noise. Notes from Flame.

Katy Perry - seventh note is different each repeat from Flame, everything else is the same in a different key.

Not sure how I feel. Don't really care because I'd never make anything that sounds like that
Nah, the first note and last in KP song is C# and F (8 semitones).
In the other song it’s C down to F (7 semitones).
It’s very similar but it’s so simple it’s asinine. I bet that’s in many songs. And it’s garbage really, repeated like that
1
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #25
Deleted a3c6337
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by nd33 View Post
Nah, the first note and last in KP song is C# and F (8 semitones).
In the other song it’s C down to F (7 semitones).
It’s very similar but it’s so simple it’s asinine. I bet that’s in many songs. And it’s garbage really, repeated like that
In Flame's version the last note is not the same every time. Forgot to include this info, sorry.

Coffee crept up on me, had to poop.

I'm mostly impressed a Christian band fought the Illuminati and came out on top. They'll suffer for it later.
Old 30th July 2019
  #26
Lives for gear
 
Will The Weirdo's Avatar
2
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will The Weirdo View Post
Not gonna lie, when they're mixed together after being slowed down and pitched, it actually sounds pretty dope...

Just sayin'
1
Share
Old 30th July 2019
  #28
I like the remix, where can I buy it?
Old 30th July 2019
  #29
Deleted ea69e11
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
C'mon guys get a life ffs. Katy is an amazing artist with t*ts- uh...i mean- vocal chords that make everyone smile. She's also an accomplished flute player

time to get with the times an quit making tit jokes bro.
Old 30th July 2019
  #30
Gear Head
I can’t wait for a court to rule that some random indie band owns the 12-bar blues progression...
3
Share
Topic:
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump