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Has Reverb.com Surpassed eBay In Fleecing People?
Old 18th February 2020
  #121
Lives for gear
 
DesolationBlvd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
You added insurance to shipping, which increases the cost of shipping. Smart decision. If it arrives broken, its' covered. That is totally worth $60
No, they forced the Safe Shipping on him because it was over a certain value. Understandable since guitars are especially sensitive to the shocks and atmospheric changes endured during shipping, but I still say they shouldn't require it for small (desktop or rack) electronic instruments.
Old 18th February 2020
  #122
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesolationBlvd View Post
No, they forced the Safe Shipping on him because it was over a certain value. Understandable since guitars are especially sensitive to the shocks and atmospheric changes endured during shipping, but I still say they shouldn't require it for small (desktop or rack) electronic instruments.
I'm skeptical. I've sold gear well over $1500 on reverb and have never, ever been forced into using their shipping options.

I shipped out an apollo x8 from usps w/ insurance @ $2k. Sold a pair telefunken elam 260 north of that. No requirement for reverb shipping.
Old 18th February 2020
  #123
Lives for gear
 
DesolationBlvd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
I'm skeptical. I've sold gear well over $1500 on reverb and have never, ever been forced into using their shipping options.

I shipped out an apollo x8 from usps w/ insurance @ $2k. Sold a pair telefunken elam 260 north of that. No requirement for reverb shipping.
What I was trying to say is that they force it if you buy shipping through them, pretty much erasing whatever savings you would have gotten.

When I encountered Safe Shipping, I just bought the shipping at FedEx instead of through Reverb.
Old 18th February 2020
  #124
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesolationBlvd View Post
What I was trying to say is that they force it if you buy shipping through them, pretty much erasing whatever savings you would have gotten.

When I encountered Safe Shipping, I just bought the shipping at FedEx instead of through Reverb.
I see what you mean. However, no one was forced to do anything. You don't have to ship through reverb or get a label through reverb. That was the seller's choice to use shipping through reverb. In this case, and in all others, no one was forced to do anything. The seller I quoted could've shipped the guitar anyway they liked. If they were upset about insurance, then they should've shipped it another way and not bought insurance

It's not Reverb's fault as much as it is a complete failure on the sellers side to read the details and research alternatives.
Old 20th February 2020
  #125
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
It was a private sale, but you used Reverb to facilitate the transaction. Just like a securities transaction, you're paying Reverb a fee to help locate a buyer for your gear and facilitating the transaction.

Since Reverb is an internet based business that facilitates transactions, they are now required by US law to collect all sales taxes as required by laws in both US states and foreign countries. EU has some of the most strict.

FYI and everyone else:


1. Reverb collects a 3.5 % fee (ebay is 10%)
2. Paypal collects 2.7-2.9% for same currency transactions (no matter the website)

3. Paypal collects 4.1-4.3% for transactions that are in two different currencies (Euro to USD for example) no matter the website
4. Reverb is required by law to collect sales tax. in the US, reverb takes this takes from the buyer in addition to any amount paid for the item. This would be the same for the EU)
I didn't take time to work out how much the tax was.. So are you saying it is tax on the commission for the service provided?

It does still seem high at 7% of the total value of the item.

They should not be paying a sales tax on the *item* unless they physically hold the item and selling on Reverb is the equivalent of them selling your item and giving you an agreed amount from their sale..

That would have consequences, such as any broken gear being the responsibility of reverb (as it would be them selling the item, not you) or as being a receiver and reseller of stolen goods..

EBay avoids this by *only* being a service that introduces buyers and sellers. They are a price discovery tool via their "price auctions" (they are not auctions in law, only price discovery exercises) and like a dating agency, connecting people.

This avoids ebay being responsible for the items (the seller is) and means they only charge tax on their service fees, not anything to do with a direct tax on the sale value..

Perhaps the answer is in reverb's TOC contracts - perhaps it states that they sell your items and in effect own them for this purpose?
Old 20th February 2020
  #126
Lives for gear
The sales tax is collected on behalf of the state/country, and goes to the state, as required by law. Reverb is transparent about this as is eBay. Both now collect sales tax for states that require it, which is nearly all, and give that $ to the states.

I’ve only seen sales tax collected from the buyer in addition to the price paid. It has never been deducted from my earnings.

What you pay is reverbs fee (3.5%) and then a payment processing fee, which varies depending on currency and whether or not you’re a preferred seller. I think total is 6.6% - 8%. So, let's round up to say at most you pay about 9% if you sell internationally.

Ebays fee starts at 10% for everything except guitars (trying to compete with reverb). Other recording gear, music gear, drums, etc... is still 10%. Then you have payment processing fee. I’ve never paid less than 14% on eBay, which is why they have lost the musical instrument/gear business. So, the answer to the OP is obvious.

The OP also paid $103 (USD I assume) that was 3.5% of their sale. That makes their sale close to $2900.

OP hasn’t replied, so this thread was probably a troll by someone who is upset they had to pay for a service.

Last edited by Ox Han; 20th February 2020 at 03:06 PM..
Old 20th February 2020
  #127
Lives for gear
For your reading pleasure. Here is info on the law that forced ebay and reverb to collect sales tax on behalf of those sates which require it since they are considered "market place facilitators". I have also included my states (VA) gov page about the adoption of the law. Reverb has a great breakdown of the supreme court ruling that made the law effective.

1. Reverb breakdown https://reverb.com/page/reverb-sales-tax-information

2. Which states have adopted this law. GA hasn't yet b/c I just sold something to a buyer in GA and they didn't have to pay sales tax. All I could think was "lucky bastard".

https://help.reverb.com/hc/en-us/art...-Reverb-Orders

3. Definition of market place facilitator and more info via Reverb

https://reverb.com/news/what-reverb-...ales-tax-rules

4. VA state's explanation of adoption and effective date

https://www.tax.virginia.gov/remote-...economic-nexus
Old 20th February 2020
  #128
Lives for gear
I also wanted to add, this is the same reason why musician's friend and sweetwater now collect sales tax. Prior to summer 2019, neither did if you lived out of their "home state".

I noticed b/c I buy too much gear. Welcome to the (tax) economy
Old 25th February 2020
  #129
Lives for gear
 
mr. torture's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
I also wanted to add, this is the same reason why musician's friend and sweetwater now collect sales tax. Prior to summer 2019, neither did if you lived out of their "home state".

I noticed b/c I buy too much gear. Welcome to the (tax) economy
I don't mind paying tax on new items, it's when I buy something used. Everytime that item changes hands the states get free money on it, that's ridiculous.
Old 25th February 2020
  #130
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. torture View Post
I don't mind paying tax on new items, it's when I buy something used. Everytime that item changes hands the states get free money on it, that's ridiculous.
I understand the frustration. I don’t like it either. However, your statement is not exactly the law.

The states are collecting sales tax because an item was sold in a transaction made possible by a “market facilitator”. Market facilitators are in the business of making transactions possible by connecting sellers to buyers for a fee. They facilitate the sale of both new and used items. Perhaps one day only new items will have the sales tax requirement, but I think that would be more expensive and raise fees because reverb/eBay would have to check and certify every sale as new or used. That’d require more employees.

Sell your item on Craigslist, a yard sale, to your buddy, etc and there is no law requiring the collection of sales tax. You can avoid sales tax on “used” items by not using a market facilitator to sell it. However, market facilitators find more potential buyers and can get us top dollar.....for a fee and sales tax.
Old 25th February 2020
  #131
Lives for gear
 
synthRodriguez's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
The states are collecting sales tax because an item was sold in a transaction made possible by a “market facilitator”.
Then the market facilitator should be paying the tax, "not collecting it from the buyer and forwarding it to the state" or whatever way they want to spin it.

It's one of the costs of doing business, but it's easy to make this one look like it's the responsibility of the buyer, not the mediary. Sales tax on the item already paid when originally sold by the manufacturer's distributor.
Old 25th February 2020
  #132
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthRodriguez View Post
Then the market facilitator should be paying the tax, "not collecting it from the buyer and forwarding it to the state" or whatever way they want to spin it.

It's one of the costs of doing business, but it's easy to make this one look like it's the responsibility of the buyer, not the mediary. Sales tax on the item already paid when originally sold by the manufacturer's distributor.
No, sales tax is not a cost of doing business. It's a cost of buying something, or consuming. It's never paid by the distributor or seller. When you go to 7-11, who pays the sales tax? When you buy a pair of shoes who pays the sales tax? It's .99 until sales tax and you pay it all. Sales tax is paid by the consumer.

I'm not here to support the law or not, I'm trying to help folks understand it and why you have to pay it on Reverb, Ebay, Sweetwater, and MF and why Reverb didn't fleece the OP. In fact, they paid much less than if they were to have sold it on Ebay.
Old 25th February 2020
  #133
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
I'm not here to support the law or not, I'm trying to help folks understand it and why you have to pay it on Reverb, Ebay, Sweetwater, and MF and why Reverb didn't fleece the OP. In fact, they paid much less than if they were to have sold it on Ebay.
In the vast sweep of history, the period when online shoppers exploited a sales-tax loophole will be seen as a brief, nonsensical blip. Kinda like the brief period when you could make a record and live off the proceeds for the rest of your life.
Old 25th February 2020
  #134
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
In the vast sweep of history, the period when online shoppers exploited a sales-tax loophole will be seen as a brief, nonsensical blip. Kinda like the brief period when you could make a record and live off the proceeds for the rest of your life.
Great comparison. I can see why the law was passed as much as I was used to not paying sales tax online. So much retail business in done online and can be done out of state. States were seeing a massive loss in revenue and I like driving on smooth and clear roads and having great public schools.
Old 1st March 2020
  #135
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
Great comparison. I can see why the law was passed as much as I was used to not paying sales tax online. So much retail business in done online and can be done out of state. States were seeing a massive loss in revenue and I like driving on smooth and clear roads and having great public schools.
Smooth roads and good schools have absolutely nothing to do with online sales tax collection. Paying retired state employees $150K per year pensions, giving state employees a raise, and keeping the bloated pension funds from collapsing is where all extra state funds are spent.

Benefits to the average tax payer factors NOWHERE in the equation.
Old 1st March 2020
  #136
Lives for gear
 

I realized my old LPs from way back are collecting dust since I don't have a record player anymore and I saw ads for Reverb LP I just saw it closed down. Did anyone use it?
Old 26th March 2020
  #137
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth Guru View Post
It looks like Fleecing could be painful.

Don’t let Covid-19 quarantine patients see that, they would think many diverse thoughts before eating!

Hello New Zealanders!
Old 28th March 2020
  #138
Lives for gear
 
T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrod View Post
I just sold a guitar on Reverb.com and paid $261.81 in fees.

Total Selling Fees: $103.25
Total Payment Processing: $74.00
Total Shipping Label Fees: $84.64

I totally get the selling fees as this is the cost of using their site to post an item and literally have the world as your customer base. What I don't get are the Processing and Label Fees. $74 to move money, seriously?!? Shipping was initially $22, but then they added about $60 in additional fees because the item sold for over $1500. This is ridiculous since the various delivery services already have fees that will cover loss/damage as do PayPal and credit card payments.

The reason I stopped using eBay was because of their exuberant fees. Now I will dump Reverb.com as well. Craigslist is looking better everyday. I will just need to be more patient with the amount of time it takes to sell an item.

$261.81 in fees for selling a guitar!!!

Mind boggling. This is beyond ridiculous.

Sorry for the rant, I just had to let it out. I would also like some advice on other ways people are selling online without getting fleeced.
There is something wrong with your numbers
Reverb fees are plain
$52.50 on $1500 3.5% plus transaction processing
Now if you go to PayPal the PayPal Fee will be $43.80



$1,856.60USD paid out

Waves Maxx BCL Black
$1,856.60USD

Gross Total Sales: $2,045.00USD
Total Processing Fees: -$55.47USD
Total Selling Fees: -$71.58USD
Total Bump Fees: -$61.35USD

Have sold several items on Reverb and they are more than fair.
FWIW my ebay payout would have been 1780.89
Old 12th July 2020
  #139
Here for the gear
 

The Reverb Safe Shipping charge was a recent discovery for me as well. It annoyed me enough to come here 😂 and vicariously vent through the comments. But truthfully, it bothers me much less than the fact that their fees apply to shipping charges as well, even when shipping is purchased from them. It feels like they're double-dipping into sellers pockets. I can understand it as a way to discourage people from charging $1 for a guitar and $2,000 for shipping to avoid fees. But if I'm paying for shipping through them, it seems reasonable to expect fees to be waived for the amount of the label. If a seller charges a buyer $100 to ship a guitar, then pays Reverb $100 for a shipping label, why do they still have to pay them the 3.5% plus another 2.7% +.$.25 in payment processing fees on that money? Even when payment was made through their own payment system, for goodness sakes. Granted, it's a small amount of money, but it just seems there could be a more efficient way of handling transactions that could lower the cost for sellers. I'm no expert, and there might very well be plenty of reasons why this s the case, but I just can't help it, it irks me that I have to pay fees on the money I turn around and pay them for shipping.
Old 14th July 2020
  #140
Gear Maniac
And, Reverb selling fees go to 5%...
Old 14th July 2020
  #141
Gear Maniac
 
Liquidaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurydime View Post
And, Reverb selling fees go to 5%...
Yup I just got the email too, so I hope my stuff will move before the fourth of august. Then it's goodbye Reverb forever. Greedy f*ckers.
Old 14th July 2020
  #142
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurydime View Post
And, Reverb selling fees go to 5%...
Just saw this email and came on to complain as well....

Reverb is still better than ebay, but I feel this move is more about funding content creation and adding to Etsy's bottom line. CME and Reverb wouldn't need to increase fees if they stopped spending so much on content creation. They should focus on being a market facilitator, which is what they do best.

Musical instruments and recording gear sales are booming with everyone at home, but I bet etsy's website sales are down by more than a little.

Last edited by Ox Han; 14th July 2020 at 05:52 PM..
Old 14th July 2020
  #143
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
Just saw this email and came on to complain as well....

Reverb is still better than ebay, but I feel this move is more about funding content creation and adding to Etsy's bottom line. CME and Reverb wouldn't need to increase fees if they stopped spending so much on content creation. They should focus on being a market facilitator, which is what they do best.

Musical instruments and recording gear sales is booming with everyone at home, but I bet etsy's website sales are down by more than a little.
I was fairly certain that the etsy buyout was going to produce a result like this. Just a matter of time. They're also initiating this at a high point of sales through the marketplace. I reckon they feel like any vendors they may lose to the move are more than made up otherwise. Plus, they pocket another 1.5 percent. Can you imagine what the 'cash flow' is at Reverb on a daily basis?

Last 3 guitar sales I've initiated here have been local/ CL.

Reverb is a viable medium in the proper context. But I've already been using it less over the last 6 months, having been an early adopter. It's almost essential if you have esoteric gear for sale. Sellers of that ilk certainly benefit from a larger potential buying pool.

But, all in all, I find the increased cost of doing business here disappointing.

Last edited by mercurydime; 14th July 2020 at 04:17 PM.. Reason: spelling
Old 14th July 2020
  #144
Here for the gear
 

Reverb nearly annihilated eBay's Musical Instruments section by offering gear owners a safer, cheaper alternative. Gear owners abandoned eBay in droves over a short period of time. So it's entirely possible that it can be done again. Instead of constantly gripping about Reverb and eBay, let's start promoting smaller platforms for gear owners to list their stuff. I really don't think Reverb is so market dominant that an upstart couldn't kill it. What's out there?
Old 15th July 2020
  #145
Gear Maniac
 
NamelessUnknown's Avatar
Reverb and Options

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitlength View Post
Reverb nearly annihilated eBay's Musical Instruments section by offering gear owners a safer, cheaper alternative. Gear owners abandoned eBay in droves over a short period of time. So it's entirely possible that it can be done again. Instead of constantly gripping about Reverb and eBay, let's start promoting smaller platforms for gear owners to list their stuff. I really don't think Reverb is so market dominant that an upstart couldn't kill it. What's out there?
Aside from Craigslist...

Sweetwater has a gear exchange (so does Gearslutz!!!), and there are fb groups like Pensadian, and Pro Analog. Not sure how safe they are, but PayPal should still cover the purchase for the buyer (at the sellers expense of course).

My 2c: a lot of people get paid way more than they deserve. The flaw in the free market is that most people are either petty, self important crooks in denial; or, simple, stupid, follow the heard types... Oh, and there’s little accountability, at best for those who have the means (and will) to take advantage. Maybe you deserve to get raped by the rich, maybe not... but the only way stop that now is... well, if I knew I’d be doing it.

By the way:

The increase in fees by Reverb is assumably related, to the fact that ETSY purchased them a little less than a year ago for ~$275 million... they’ve gotta make that money back somehow.
Old 15th July 2020
  #146
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by mercurydime View Post
And, Reverb selling fees go to 5%...
Yeap. if ebay were smart they'd lower to 4.5% and watch the stampede..
Old 15th July 2020
  #147
Gear Nut
Here in France we have leboncoin, but their in-house safe buyer service is expensive too. I've bypassed that service in favor of paypal, buying a couple of things there for lower prices than on ebay or reverb too.
Old 9th August 2020
  #148
Gear Addict
 
channelite's Avatar
I’m really upset at reverb.com. I sold a cymbal for $95 plus $15 shipping and only collected $72.73. I had initiated a refund twice and apparently if you do that, they charge you a fee. So I had a balance of fees I didn’t know about. I was unaware that you pay a fee to initiate a refund. Even worse is it’s really hard to contact them. You have to search a help article then you have the chance to contact them. Even worse it’s been six days and no reply from them. I asked to refund the extra fees and then cancel my account. I discovered the ugly truth behind Reverb’s cool musician facade.

Last edited by channelite; 9th August 2020 at 11:11 PM..
Old 10th August 2020
  #149
Facebook Marketplace is where it's at these days. I sold my Focals in 12 hours. Obviously it's a local thing only and I'm sure it helps if you live in a popular area (I'm in Nashville.)
Old 11th August 2020
  #150
Gear Nut
I'd just like to add my experience with ebay and paypal's "get refunded if an item is not as you expected":

I was sold a Nava 909 with multiple UNDISCLOSED issues, which I documented and posted to Youtube and described to paypal in detail. Ebay refused the case altogther since they claim they are out of the picture once a claim is file don paypal.

paypal just denied my claim because the seller could prove that I RECEIVED the item, something that was never at issue.

They basically just IGNORED everything I wrote and docoumented, making up a false reason to dismiss my claim.

I have been on PP and dEVILbay since the 90s. They have made THOUSANDS on me. I have an excellent feedback history on ebay and more recently on Reverb too.

I don't dispute things frivolously.

I can't wait for other companies to step up and fill the confidence void..
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