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PRS Keychange Gender discrimination Project Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 6 days ago
  #121
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raggedman's Avatar
 

I have no children. Giving birth is the single most heinous act of child abuse I can imagine...I would hate to be personally responsible for another being suffering for 70+ years..
Humans suck.
Need proof?
Look in a mirror.
Old 6 days ago
  #122
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
So 60's...…

Get with the narcissist program already you old fart.
In case you missed the memo it's already ILLEGAL to discriminate on the basis of sexuality and there is no evidence any sexual discrimination has even occurred. Yet you want to make it legal to sexually discriminate, but for one side only.

It's nothing to do with narcissism, it's about being intellectually consistent and not being a hypocrite.
Old 6 days ago
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
In case you missed the memo it's already ILLEGAL to discriminate on the basis of sexuality and there is no evidence any sexual discrimination has even occurred. Yet you want to make it legal to sexually discriminate, but for one side only.

It's nothing to do with narcissism, it's about being intellectually consistent and not being a hypocrite.
My comment was justified retroactively by the "virtue-signaling" comment. Has nothing to do with the above.

You guys shouldn't get so up in arms about this stuff. If the people who want to do this get what they want and it's illegal then you can sue in court and it can be settled. Just like how other discrimination cases are settled.

Why so sensitive to all of this?

PS: I didn't actually say I want to make it legal to discriminate, but it probably already is. All you have to do is find the odd outliers in legislation. Like... oh, I don't know, maternity leave... or gender-specific bathrooms... Stuff like that...
Old 6 days ago
  #124
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
My comment was justified retroactively by the "virtue-signaling" comment. Has nothing to do with the above.

You guys shouldn't get so up in arms about this stuff. If the people who want to do this get what they want and it's illegal then you can sue in court and it can be settled. Just like how other discrimination cases are settled.

Why so sensitive to all of this?

PS: I didn't actually say I want to make it legal to discriminate, but it probably already is. All you have to do is find the odd outliers in legislation. Like... oh, I don't know, maternity leave... or gender-specific bathrooms... Stuff like that...
People are upset because it's pretty tiresome to be accsued of sexism, narcissm, having no empathy etc simply for pointing out that you can't defend a principle by doing the opposite of that principle.

If you've lived long enough on this planet, studied history or just read Orwell's Animal Farm, something one starts to notice is how easily a perceived victim will turn into the oppressor given half a chance and enough power. It tends to happen in small, gradual steps, no single one being terrible in itself and all defendable on the grounds that the end justifying the means, until eventually you have no principles left.

We are seeing this atm on many levels, with former perceived underdogs no longer just calling for fairness, equality, equal opportunity etc (all extremely valid demands,) but now calling for extra privileges, rights, protections, compensations etc even when they themselves may not have personally suffered the original injustices and those they are demanding the extra rights from may not have committed any of the initial abuses. So the victim/oppressor cycle continues, except with the sides switched around ('four legs good, two legs bad' as Orwell framed it.) And because that eventually creates resentments, injustices, abuses etc at some point things turn around once more. And on, and on.

So you might think this is some minor issue and you are merely helping 'redress the balance', but others see it as a symptom of something extremely unhealthy that won't end well. And it's not because we don't care or lack empathy, but because we actually care very much.
Old 6 days ago
  #125
Quote:
Originally Posted by raggedman View Post
No one ever said there are no issues.
What has been said is that it's counterproductive to fight discrimination with discrimination...
2 wrongs do not make a right.
All humans are individuals and should be dealt with on an individual basis.
Blanket solutions do not work.
Has nothing to do with privilege.
Funnily enough, I’m not sure I agree with “positive discrimination” either. But something has to be done - and given the missing side of the debate, someone has to raise the good things!

The point is - instead of lazily putting on the next best group on the bill, the idea is that you actively look for some amazing female artists. Not to just stick someone on who’s not as good but happens to be female. It’s meant to actively promote looking for great talent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raggedman View Post
If we are back on nappies, which I assume means diapers, they are available in white, the blue ones soak up urine same as the pink ones, and there are also cloth diaper options which are better for the environment anyway...no reason your child should be in any garment you don't approve of.
Sigh. Cloth nappies are hell on earth to deal with - having a baby is exhausting enough without having to deal with extra washing loads!

And after a certain age, they’re gender matched for a reason - comfort - and then colour coded. That was the point - the “system” is already imposing choices. But...you wouldn’t know any of that if you’ve never actually had to deal with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREMORS View Post
If you're a white male that is upset that some system is in place to give opportunities to minorities or women or both simply because they are minorities or women...

Well, now you finally know how it felt to be in their shoes for over a hundred-plus years in Western culture
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raggedman View Post
Except all the people who wore those shoes are dead now and no one alive currently owes anyone alive currently any sort of reparations for anything dead people did to dead people...
Do I owe some debt for the fact that certain people were oppressed before I was born?...nope.
Do I try to be the best person I can be towards ANYONE I encounter?...Yup...
If that's not enough for someone, then they have a seriously skewed sense of justice.

Deal with situations on INDIVIDUAL TERMS.

It is, today, ILLEGAL to discriminate in hiring practices...this alone should render this initiative moot.
Yet the problem remains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raggedman View Post
I have no children. Giving birth is the single most heinous act of child abuse I can imagine...I would hate to be personally responsible for another being suffering for 70+ years..
Humans suck.
Need proof?
Look in a mirror.
Haha. I’d never have guessed...and sorry - you might make a bad parent, I think on balance I’m personally doing ok!
Old 6 days ago
  #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
People are upset because it's pretty tiresome to be accsued of sexism, narcissm,
"Tremors" simply said that if you're upset about this then "now you finally know how it felt to be in their shoes for over a hundred-plus years in Western culture".

Not … then you are a sexist narcissist...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
having no empathy etc simply for pointing out that you can't defend a principle by doing the opposite of that principle.
But that's not really the case though. After "Tremors" made the point you basically just said that men suffered too, after which he made the comment about being empathetic. But the two aren't mutually exclusive. Not all men fight. Not all men are misogynist. None of that excludes the ability to be human and have empathy for those who are oppressed.

If your response to "This group has suffered oppression for quite some time" essentially is "Well boo-hoo, so did my group; what's your point?", then you sure don't look like you possess the capacity for empathy or are just a narcissist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
calling for extra privileges, rights, protections, compensations etc even when they themselves may not have personally suffered the original injustices and those they are demanding the extra rights from may not have committed any of the initial abuses. So the victim/oppressor cycle continues, except with the sides switched around ('four legs good, two legs bad' as Orwell framed it.) And because that eventually creates resentments, injustices, abuses etc at some point things turn around once more. And on, and on.
If you're talking about what I think you are the issue is that earlier generations created a tremendous imbalance by means of horrific discrimination, and the ancestors did benefit from that because the playing field was now heavily skewed for a long time to come.

Let's not pretend that isn't a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
So you might think this is some minor issue and you are merely helping 'redress the balance', but others see it as a symptom of something extremely unhealthy that won't end well. And it's not because we don't care or lack empathy, but because we actually care very much.
But despite caring so much the issue persists. Again, it's debatable to what degree it exists in this case, but it still certainly persists in others. In case you haven't noticed, there's a one-year anniversary coming up here in the US this weekend. It should speak volumes.

As far as the "empathy" comment goes it really does come off as a "shoe's now on the other foot and I don't like it"-moment.

PS: I'm the first one to admit that things can and do go overboard, but the solution to that often isn't to tell people that they're wrong and then offer no other viable solutions, or to basically demean their complaints by counter-whining about "virtue-signaling", I think the solution to that problem is to engage in a dialog and actual investigation in the actual problem. If it's a non-issue then a quick but actually factual investigation should probably show that. But merely accusing others of being sheep and having some sort of fake empathy isn't really going to move things forward.

Another way of looking at it is that as unproductive as some may think it is to demand a quota in different areas, it's probably equally unproductive to whine about quotas without trying to solve or offering solutions to the actual (proposed) problems. It's unproductive because guess what; now there's a movement and if you don't do anything it'll just continue.
Old 5 days ago
  #127
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doom64's Avatar
Keychange is an affront to freedom of association. "Oh, you're not going to pledge for 50/50 representation with whom you book? You must be a SEXIST PIG then!"

It would be like forcing a restaurant to carry 50/50 vegan meals when vegan food is not what most people go to a certain restaurant for. A music festival is a business. The more popular bands they book, the higher the chance of selling out the tickets.

So, by the year 2022 more than 100 international music festivals will have about 60% known musical acts and 40% that mostly no one has ever heard of. That is what is going to happen because there simply aren't enough popular female musicians out there.

As a side note, I could let PRS Foundation know that their Facebook icon link is broken. However, since their keychange.eu web site did not represent men 50/50 they will have to be informed by someone who was born with different genitalia.
Old 19 hours ago
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
"Tremors" simply said that if you're upset about this then "now you finally know how it felt to be in their shoes for over a hundred-plus years in Western culture".

Not … then you are a sexist narcissist...



But that's not really the case though. After "Tremors" made the point you basically just said that men suffered too, after which he made the comment about being empathetic. But the two aren't mutually exclusive. Not all men fight. Not all men are misogynist. None of that excludes the ability to be human and have empathy for those who are oppressed.

If your response to "This group has suffered oppression for quite some time" essentially is "Well boo-hoo, so did my group; what's your point?", then you sure don't look like you possess the capacity for empathy or are just a narcissist.



If you're talking about what I think you are the issue is that earlier generations created a tremendous imbalance by means of horrific discrimination, and the ancestors did benefit from that because the playing field was now heavily skewed for a long time to come.

Let's not pretend that isn't a problem.



But despite caring so much the issue persists. Again, it's debatable to what degree it exists in this case, but it still certainly persists in others. In case you haven't noticed, there's a one-year anniversary coming up here in the US this weekend. It should speak volumes.

As far as the "empathy" comment goes it really does come off as a "shoe's now on the other foot and I don't like it"-moment.

PS: I'm the first one to admit that things can and do go overboard, but the solution to that often isn't to tell people that they're wrong and then offer no other viable solutions, or to basically demean their complaints by counter-whining about "virtue-signaling", I think the solution to that problem is to engage in a dialog and actual investigation in the actual problem. If it's a non-issue then a quick but actually factual investigation should probably show that. But merely accusing others of being sheep and having some sort of fake empathy isn't really going to move things forward.

Another way of looking at it is that as unproductive as some may think it is to demand a quota in different areas, it's probably equally unproductive to whine about quotas without trying to solve or offering solutions to the actual (proposed) problems. It's unproductive because guess what; now there's a movement and if you don't do anything it'll just continue.
Solutions? I said there aren't any. I haven't sexually harassed women who were professionals or even the ones who were the stereotype. You know those: they make you do 95% of the work and just want to look pretty. They don't want to pay for your time ON THE CLOCK because hey, they're a princess. They've used their feminine wiles to get what they want for free. And worst of all, they're not rare in this business.

I have respect for the ones who are authentic. They're out there. Just not in abundance. Direct observation reveals that while harassment may weed out some, it doesn't weed out the few who are worthy. And saying that there are inherent difficulties in a chosen field is not condoning sexual harassment, but realizing the futility of being able to enforce it. All must fight their own battles. It ruins final products so I don't allow harassment in my vicinity, but I'm not going to shoulder a cause and fight a crusade. Women can do that themselves if they feel so inclined.

The quotas are not going to fix anything.
Old 10 hours ago
  #129
Gear Addict
 

Thread Starter
It seems noteworthy that the only women to contribute here comments that this initiative will do women no favours. This proves nothing, but it does suggest that the issues are rather more complex than PRS takes them to be.

As Vincentvangogo notes, the situation is becoming noticeably Orwellian.
Old 10 hours ago
  #130
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PeteGJ : You appear to have an opinion that is not part of the narrative.

These opinions are now rated X as dangerous and are no longer allowed.

Please present yourself to the nearest brain re-programming centre where the correct modes of thought and latest un-science social contract BS will be installed.

Thank you for your co-operation.

The Groupthink policy correction division.
Old 10 hours ago
  #131
Gear Addict
 

Thread Starter
Click whirr. I will do as instructed.

But my re-programming centre has a policy of 50% male-female participation so I must wait for more women to be re-programmed before I can make a booking.

Dammit. I really like women, oddly enough, and it is annoying to have to have these divisive conversations.
Old 9 hours ago
  #132
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Everything is a conspiracy. News are fake. The sky just fell.

At least we're still allowed trite retorts.

Carry on.
Old 8 hours ago
  #133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synonym Music View Post
Solutions? I said there aren't any. I haven't sexually harassed women who were professionals or even the ones who were the stereotype. You know those: they make you do 95% of the work and just want to look pretty. They don't want to pay for your time ON THE CLOCK because hey, they're a princess. They've used their feminine wiles to get what they want for free. And worst of all, they're not rare in this business.
If you ask me, this shows a kind of buried prejudice. Given the ratios of female/male in this business, I see far more men who are likely to attempt to use you than women; but you're focussing on "feminine wiles". Just say no if it's not paid! it's not hard...

Quote:
I have respect for the ones who are authentic. They're out there. Just not in abundance. Direct observation reveals that while harassment may weed out some, it doesn't weed out the few who are worthy. And saying that there are inherent difficulties in a chosen field is not condoning sexual harassment, but realizing the futility of being able to enforce it. All must fight their own battles. It ruins final products so I don't allow harassment in my vicinity, but I'm not going to shoulder a cause and fight a crusade. Women can do that themselves if they feel so inclined.

The quotas are not going to fix anything.
It may not condone it, but if you resign yourself to something existing, it's as good as.

FWIW see attachment. Why should this be? Are women simply not as good songwriters?
Attached Thumbnails
PRS Keychange Gender discrimination Project-39183708_10155546311891316_1543594190867267584_o.jpg  
Old 8 hours ago
  #134
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
FWIW see attachment. Why should this be? Are women simply not as good songwriters?
Generally, yes. (They tend to out-perform men in other areas though.)

Men and women are not identical.
Old 8 hours ago
  #135
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Everything is a conspiracy. News are fake. The sky just fell.

At least we're still allowed trite retorts.

Carry on.
Actually we already have male univeristy professors being forced onto to diversity awareness courses run by women. So it's already starting to happen.
Old 7 hours ago
  #136
Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
Generally, yes. (They tend to out-perform men in other areas though.)
I just don’t agree.
Old 7 hours ago
  #137
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
If you ask me, this shows a kind of buried prejudice. Given the ratios of female/male in this business, I see far more men who are likely to attempt to use you than women; but you're focussing on "feminine wiles". Just say no if it's not paid! it's not hard...



It may not condone it, but if you resign yourself to something existing, it's as good as.

FWIW see attachment. Why should this be? Are women simply not as good songwriters?
I love how they've had to phrase it "identify as male, identify as female" just incase somebody woke up one morning and decided they wanted to defy their genitals and be a different gender for the day and required different pronouns.
Old 6 hours ago
  #138
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
I just don’t agree.
I'd wager your record collection proves otherwise.
Old 6 hours ago
  #139
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"I just don’t agree."

You do not have to agree.

The science has spoken though.

You are welcome to your opinion.

You are not welcome to your own facts.

Google studies done in the Scandinavian countries (the most egalitarian places in the world when it comes to gender equality) with regards to Gender Equality outcomes. Also worth googling the social sciences for the different choices men and women make that lead to 'disparity'.

The bigger reason why women are under represented in a lot of arenas/jobs is because women make different choices to men. For example there are more Male CEO's.

Which is more to do with the qualities required to make a good CEO ie recent studies found 1 in 5 CEO's to share traits with psychopaths. Men are much more likely to show psychopathic tendencies than women are for example.

There are also a LOT more men doing jobs that are dangerous and have a high risk of loss of life for the men involved such as working in oil or deep sea saturation diving. But we do not see people demanding equality there do we?

The same goes for men being under represented in other arenas/jobs. There are many more women teachers for example and many more women working as Doctors especially in the psychiatric fields. More men are surgeons though...... Do you see the pattern here?

Whilst your googling look up the big 5 personality markers and the types of people they tend to represent and the types of choices and careers those people usually choose. The science on this stuff is not new or flimsy. It is extremely well understood and established and not in the least bit controversial outside of the BS spewed on social media.

It is not oppression it is choice.

You will never achieve your mystical 50/50 representation ratio without first forcing people to make choices they would not naturally make.

THAT'S OPPRESSION.

Maybe just maybe there are fewer female songwriters because fewer females CHOOSE to write songs for a living.

Maybe its not systemic misogyny at all but a simple result of freedom of choice.
Old 6 hours ago
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
Actually we already have male univeristy professors being forced onto to diversity awareness courses run by women. So it's already starting to happen.
"the horror.....… the horror...….."
Old 6 hours ago
  #141
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
"the horror.....… the horror...….."

That's why it's so concerning, there are many like yourself who support compulsory 're-educating'. They should look at history.
Old 6 hours ago
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
That's why it's so concerning, there are many like yourself who support compulsory 're-educating'. They should look at history.
Is this where I play my race-card?

Something tells me that'll fall on deaf ears.
Old 6 hours ago
  #143
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGreen View Post
"I just don’t agree."

You do not have to agree.

The science has spoken though.

You are welcome to your opinion.

You are not welcome to your own facts.

Google studies done in the Scandinavian countries (the most egalitarian places in the world when it comes to gender equality) with regards to Gender Equality outcomes. Also worth googling the social sciences for the different choices men and women make that lead to 'disparity'.

The bigger reason why women are under represented in a lot of arenas/jobs is because women make different choices to men. For example there are more Male CEO's.

Which is more to do with the qualities required to make a good CEO ie recent studies found 1 in 5 CEO's to share traits with psychopaths. Men are much more likely to show psychopathic tendencies than women are for example.

There are also a LOT more men doing jobs that are dangerous and have a high risk of loss of life for the men involved such as working in oil or deep sea saturation diving. But we do not see people demanding equality there do we?

The same goes for men being under represented in other arenas/jobs. There are many more women teachers for example and many more women working as Doctors especially in the psychiatric fields. More men are surgeons though...... Do you see the pattern here?

Whilst your googling look up the big 5 personality markers and the types of people they tend to represent and the types of choices and careers those people usually choose. The science on this stuff is not new or flimsy. It is extremely well understood and established and not in the least bit controversial outside of the BS spewed on social media.

It is not oppression it is choice.

You will never achieve your mystical 50/50 representation ratio without first forcing people to make choices they would not naturally make.

THAT'S OPPRESSION.

Maybe just maybe there are fewer female songwriters because fewer females CHOOSE to write songs for a living.

Maybe its not systemic misogyny at all but a simple result of freedom of choice.
There is also a huge body of science showing significant differences in how male and female brains differ that no amount of social conditioning or 'diversity awareness' courses will ever change. It's a complete hiding to nothing to try and do so, and all these attempts at social engineering ever achieve is to re-confirm that men and women have fundamentally different drives and skill sets and make differnet choices in life. Contrary to current thinking, this is actually a very good thing and one of the reasons humans are such a successful and adaptable species.
Old 6 hours ago
  #144
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vincentvangogo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Is this where I play my race-card?

Something tells me that'll fall on deaf ears.
Please don't.
Old 6 hours ago
  #145
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We can all play the oppressed in some way card. Be it colour/religion/sexuality.

Some of us choose not to because we do not view ourselves as oppressed. I am no victim in life.

I prefer to use facts and peer assessed science.

But hey you do you.
Old 5 hours ago
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentvangogo View Post
Please don't.
Ignore history. Got it.
Old 5 hours ago
  #147
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Come to think of it, since you people are against addressing the issue of discrimination and since it can't be addressed and since this feminist nonsense is already starting to happen I suggest you either do something to stop these feminists, or stop complaining about it since you're not going to do anything about it and since nothing will change anyway....
Old 4 hours ago
  #148
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'you people'

Cant stop playing identity politics can you.

Gotta label them collectively somehow!

Cant argue any of the points raised though.

*shrugs*

ttfn.
Old 4 hours ago
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGreen View Post
'you people'

Cant stop playing identity politics can you.
Really? What "identity" was I implying when I used those words?

Me thinks "identity politics" is mostly in your head, courtesy of contemporary American political pundits.
Old 4 hours ago
  #150
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I'd be surprised if many people here would be against addressing discrimination where it exists. The issue here is that some people look at the gender disparity in representation at festivals and blindly assume that the disparity exists because of discrimination, rather than looking into it to see if there actually is discrimination happening, or whether the disparity exists for much more mundane reasons - namely uncoerced personal choice.

Whereas its useful to think about gender imbalance in the building trade, midwifery or whatever it strikes me, given the subject of this forum and the interests and experience of its members, that looking at the OP's example would be more productive.

So ... I laid out my view of the gender imbalance of festival artists earlier from headliners all the way down to bedroom musicians. Anyone care to point out where in that chain the discrimination is happening?
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