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Japanese inflating hardware used synth prices
Old 27th May 2018
  #1
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gsilbers's Avatar
 

Japanese inflating hardware used synth prices

I remeber not a couple of years ago the MS2000 being sold for about $300 ish. sometimes even less.
What i am noticing in a bunch of synth listings is all these different synths coming from japan being sold for above the average.
example:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...2000r&_sacat=0


So people here that are going to sell their synth, see those japanese listing and assume thats the price. which includes the almost $100 shipping price. (!)

of course its all about supply and demand and how much each person is willing to pay.. but i feel these japanese stores have been inflating those prices.
Old 27th May 2018
  #2
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re5etuk's Avatar
I wouldn’t group everything from Japan as inflated , maybe just that store
Perhaps other things also put prices up when looking from your perspective .. currency conversions , increase in shipping price , talks of how good it might be on web forums , taxes that may not be obvious etc.
I don’t recall that Korg being so cheap in the uk if you looked at it purely on a currency conversion value.
Old 27th May 2018
  #3
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jazzcabbage's Avatar
 

I’d be more concerned with getting a second hand Japanese import piece that someone has been operating a 100V unit at 120V without a step down transformer. The U.S. market is starting to get saturated with them. Buyer beware.
Old 27th May 2018
  #4
I guess you didn't know that ARMEN'S MUSIC of NYC has a second cousin named Arimitsu's, where they also charge 3 times what something is worth.
Old 27th May 2018
  #5
Deleted b6e9904
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That’s funny; around this time last year I was checking out prices for old synths and noticed that buying from Japan and importing them over was the cheapest way to go, in virtually every instance. I did however wonder how trustworthy they were though.
Old 27th May 2018
  #6
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tricera's Avatar
 

In Japan, there's been some price creep upwards for vintage analogue over the past few years, but not for something like the MS2000. There's an MS2000 on Yahoo Auctions right now for about $275. And a MS2000R for about $300.

I've heard that second prices are higher across the board in the US. Maybe people caught on and are just pricing accordingly.
Old 27th May 2018
  #7
Deleted b6e9904
Guest
The US and Japan markets are still a lot cheaper than Europe. Especially the UK. It’s a nightmare here buying anything that can be called ‘vintage’, which now seems to be anything pre-2005. You see things like ER-1’s up for £200 from time to time, with descriptors like ‘vintage, rare, analog’.

Edit: there’s two ER-1’s up now on eBay UK funnily enough, one for £200 and the other for £205. They were only about £100 when they were brand new. It’s madness!
Old 27th May 2018
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space skeleton View Post
I guess you didn't know that ARMEN'S MUSIC of NYC has a second cousin named Arimitsu's, where they also charge 3 times what something is worth.
I've only ever gotten good deals at Armen's and from ordering from Japan. Direct from Japan is my preferred way to shop for most any japanese brand item. It always arrives faster than something used shipping the USA and it has been without fail super clean and well packed.

Easy solution, don't buy anything that is overpriced.
Old 27th May 2018
  #9
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Synth Buddha's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoardsOfBurnley View Post

Edit: there’s two ER-1’s up now on eBay UK funnily enough, one for £200 and the other for £205. They were only about £100 when they were brand new. It’s madness!
No, they were much more expensive than that new. More like 350-400 pounds, IIRC.
Old 27th May 2018
  #10
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Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth Buddha View Post
No, they were much more expensive than that new. More like 350-400 pounds, IIRC.
Correctamundo. RRP was £349.
Old 27th May 2018
  #11
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
I remeber not a couple of years ago the MS2000 being sold for about $300 ish. sometimes even less.
What i am noticing in a bunch of synth listings is all these different synths coming from japan being sold for above the average.
example:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...2000r&_sacat=0


So people here that are going to sell their synth, see those japanese listing and assume thats the price. which includes the almost $100 shipping price. (!)

of course its all about supply and demand and how much each person is willing to pay.. but i feel these japanese stores have been inflating those prices.
Japanese... the original Silverlake hipster
Old 27th May 2018
  #12
Deleted User
Guest
I am sure California with around the population of Canada, can support a thriving second hand market on its own. I would never think of ordering anything from Japan when I have the Canadian used market first, and secondly the U.S. 3 miles away from my front door.

If they are charging too much, well don`t buy it.
I quit ebay and paypal back in 2002....


Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
I remeber not a couple of years ago the MS2000 being sold for about $300 ish. sometimes even less.
What i am noticing in a bunch of synth listings is all these different synths coming from japan being sold for above the average.
example:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...2000r&_sacat=0


So people here that are going to sell their synth, see those japanese listing and assume thats the price. which includes the almost $100 shipping price. (!)

of course its all about supply and demand and how much each person is willing to pay.. but i feel these japanese stores have been inflating those prices.
Old 27th May 2018
  #13
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Another country’s synth community doesn’t owe us anything, especially a cheap deal that only serves us. In both equipment and records (80s Japanese music is super hot right now with record collectors) they have every right to charge a premium for outside people treating their culture like a shopping spree. In both synths and records I am aware of sellers charging a notable premium to outside buyers. Given the treatment of Asia by Western countries, even by people who seem to “get it”, it makes sense.
Old 27th May 2018
  #14
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Rob Ocelot's Avatar
Worth noting that Japanese made analog synths (Roland, Korg, Kawai, Akai) were plentiful in Japan and fairly cheap on the second hand market. All that changed when a few Americans living in Japan realized the huge price differential and started taking advantage of it on ebay. Prices now are almost the same when you factor in currency fluctuations, shipping, insurance, and rejigging the power supplies to work with 120V or 240V. There were a couple of unscrupulous sellers who basically did nothing to ensure the synth worked well which kind of soured me on the whole import process -- I never bought anything, but I know enough people with their own horror stories.

Not to say there aren't good deals to be had. I would buy from Ko at Modless Factory in a heartbeat. His prices have gone up but you can be sure the synth is working, with an accurate description of it's condition and he will convert the power supply or do mod requests for a nominal charge.

On the flip side American made synths like ARP, Moog and Sequential are very expensive in Japan and expensive for them to import, so there's that too.
Old 28th May 2018
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Mitch View Post
Correctamundo. RRP was £349.
yep. remember them at Turnkey.

costing about 150eu elsewhere atm.

Last edited by ibtl; 28th May 2018 at 08:45 AM..
Old 28th May 2018
  #16
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Good....I am sick and tired of encountering idiots advertising gear with Japanese power supplies outside Japan.
Old 28th May 2018
  #17
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tricera's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairbow View Post
Another country’s synth community doesn’t owe us anything, especially a cheap deal that only serves us. In both equipment and records (80s Japanese music is super hot right now with record collectors) they have every right to charge a premium for outside people treating their culture like a shopping spree. In both synths and records I am aware of sellers charging a notable premium to outside buyers. Given the treatment of Asia by Western countries, even by people who seem to “get it”, it makes sense.
Cultural appropriation of synths. Now I've heard everything

There's a market. People want to sell in the market. They check the going rates in that market. They set prices according to that market. Or, they set prices higher because they want more money. So what? That's how it works. If it's too expensive, it doesn't sell and prices come down.
Old 28th May 2018
  #18
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Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hollandturbine View Post
Good....I am sick and tired of encountering idiots advertising gear with Japanese power supplies outside Japan.
Whats wrong with that ? They can hardly be called idiots when it gets more sales.
Do you feel the same about American sellers selling 110v gear to Europeans or Europeans selling 220v/240v gear to Canadians ?
Step up/ step down transformers are quite easy to come buy and any competent tech can change the power supply for you.
Old 28th May 2018
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tricera View Post
Cultural appropriation of synths. Now I've heard everything

There's a market. People want to sell in the market. They check the going rates in that market. They set prices according to that market. Or, they set prices higher because they want more money. So what? That's how it works. If it's too expensive, it doesn't sell and prices come down.
I never said appropriation. The idea that a market is this pure thing where anyone anywhere can just buy without political context is insanely naive. "Going rates" occur for different groups, Japanese sellers have caught on and price accordingly.
Old 28th May 2018
  #20
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tricera's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairbow View Post
I never said appropriation.
"treating their culture like a shopping spree"

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairbow View Post
The idea that a market is this pure thing where anyone anywhere can just buy without political context is insanely naive. "Going rates" occur for different groups, Japanese sellers have caught on and price accordingly.
No. We're not talking about groups (although that unfortunately does seem to be vogue in almost every area of life at the moment). We're talking about markets, in particular the US market. Prices are decided by those people who buy in the US market. Some people based overseas attempt to sell in that market. Where's the politics in that?
Old 28th May 2018
  #21
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spaceman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairbow View Post
I never said appropriation. The idea that a market is this pure thing where anyone anywhere can just buy without political context is insanely naive. "Going rates" occur for different groups, Japanese sellers have caught on and price accordingly.
This just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. People put things for sale on a website ( eBay ). Other people surf on that website and decide to buy the thing that's for sale. End of story.
What does "cultural appropriation" , "political context ", and "the treatment of Asia by Western countries, even by people who seem to “get it” have to do with this ?
Old 28th May 2018
  #22
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how much do you your typical japanese store pays for these items, and what percent markup do you think they need to apply in order to stay in business and generate a reasonable profit?
it doesn't seem like there's much money making potential for them there. if they do their job well, the time it takes to arrange the deal, test, clean and service the merchandise, photograph it, market it, sell it, pack it and ship it is considerable - these are all things that should be factored into the cost.

mini
Old 28th May 2018
  #23
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tricera's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by minime123 View Post
how much do you your typical japanese store pays for these items, and what percent markup do you think they need to apply in order to stay in business and generate a reasonable profit?
it doesn't seem like there's much money making potential for them there. if they do their job well, the time it takes to arrange the deal, test, clean and service the merchandise, photograph it, market it, sell it, pack it and ship it is considerable - these are all things that should be factored into the cost.

mini
Probably the biggest online vintage synth store in Japan, "Five G". Scroll down for "buy" prices.

楽器を売るなら Five G へ!あなたの大切なシンセサイザー、キーボード、レコーディング機器を高く買取&下取りします! - FiveG music technology
Old 28th May 2018
  #24
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Synth Buddha's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tricera View Post
Yeah, I think I'd probably sell my synths somewhere else.
Old 28th May 2018
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
I remeber not a couple of years ago the MS2000 being sold for about $300 ish. sometimes even less.
What i am noticing in a bunch of synth listings is all these different synths coming from japan being sold for above the average.
example:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...2000r&_sacat=0


So people here that are going to sell their synth, see those japanese listing and assume thats the price. which includes the almost $100 shipping price. (!)

of course its all about supply and demand and how much each person is willing to pay.. but i feel these japanese stores have been inflating those prices.
NOBODY buys those overpriced Japanese Ebay things.....I'm not even really sure what they are if they areal ads or just decoys designed to artificially inflate a used price.

And don't pay more than $250 for an MS2000, if someone wants more, then just let them KEEP it,

Tell them they are probably really smart and that V.A wave of retro nostalgia will be sweeping the nation any day now,

You just need to understand that the synth market was infiltrated by speculators a few years back, they bought stuff up, artificially inflated the prices, sold everything and moved on to the next thing,

Ignorance of this has left the synth market in a state of greedy paranoia, where people think anything with keys on it is worth 10x retail, even if it's still available in retail.........."Vintage" is now interchangeable with "used" and "synthesizer" is now considered to be equivalent to Gold Bullion.

Consequently, there are A LOT of used synths that have been for sale for YEARS

But don't worry, there are sane people out there and if you are patient you'll get an opportunity to buy what you want at a fair price.

But you MUST STARVE OUT those who are both delusional and greedy, DO NOT PAY INFLATED PRICES.....PERIOD.

And eventually, the market will correct.
Old 28th May 2018
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tricera View Post
ok, but you didnt answer my questions about what you feel they should be paying. markups for used and vintage gear should be greater than markups for new gear because used and especially vintage gear requires so much more of an investment of time and money... at least when its done right (which few sellers seem to do).

mini
Old 28th May 2018
  #27
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tricera's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by minime123 View Post
ok, but you didnt answer my questions about what you feel they should be paying. markups for used and vintage gear should be greater than markups for new gear because used and especially vintage gear requires so much more of an investment of time and money... at least when its done right (which few sellers seem to do).

mini
I have no idea what they should be paying. It's not up to me to personally to decide. That's what the market is there for.

I do know that Five G is a reliable dealer, or at least was the last time I had a good look. They repair, clean and refurbish all machines and give a six month or one year warranty. I see you're in the same business.
Old 28th May 2018
  #28
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Rob Ocelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tricera View Post
That's not terribly out of line for buy prices on used gear. Y1000 is roughly about $9 US these days. Especially when used stuff comes in all manner of conditions.

When I was younger I was into collecting comics and video games. It was all unicorns and roses when you were acquiring stuff (especially finding stuff on the cheap at fleas and thrifts) and checking the monthly price guides was almost an ego boost as to how much you were "worth".

It's only when you go to sell that the hard reality sets in: You would be lucky to find a dealer willing to pay you 1/3 of what the price guide says. They have to keep the heat and lights on, pay rent in some cases, pay their employees, and hopefully make some money to live on. Your stuff is only worth what someone will pay you for it, not what some book, online forum, or ebay says.

A funny thing -- the bottom fell out of both comics and video games in practically the same way. Super rare and top condition stuff continued to rise (and in fact were put into grading categories of their own, a huge mistake IMO) to the point where only the big boys with big pockets could play. Everything else was basically worth less than it was before and most people left to collect something else.

The difference with musical instruments is they have functions other than just looking nice on a shelf. When I see threads where someone is asking if they should pay $13k for a non-working Synthi-A you know the market has gone a little off the rails and will eventually self-correct. The Jupiter-8, CS-80, MemoryMoog and the like will always command a high price and will keep creeping up. The middling stuff that's overpriced right now (Junos mostly, but the SH-101, JX-3P, Poly-61 are also inflated) will crash hard, and that's not even taking into account the Behringer effect.
Old 28th May 2018
  #29
Deleted b6e9904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synth Buddha View Post
No, they were much more expensive than that new. More like 350-400 pounds, IIRC.
No ****? Ha, mine must have been on a special offer. I definitely only paid £100 for it brand new back in ‘99 or 2000. I was only 15 so I wouldn’t have been able to afford it if it had been £350-400!
Old 28th May 2018
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tricera View Post
Cultural appropriation of synths. Now I've heard everything

There's a market. People want to sell in the market. They check the going rates in that market. They set prices according to that market. Or, they set prices higher because they want more money. So what? That's how it works. If it's too expensive, it doesn't sell and prices come down.
That's a bunch of bull. These greedy idiots jack up their prices 4x what it's worth and NEVER bring the price down. There's stuff on my watch list that's been up for years and these inflated prices stay the same. I would love to buy some of the stuff these sellers are offering, but I refuse to pay 4x what it's worth. If these people really want to sell what they have, they need to be more reasonable in regard to price.

Does the thought ever occur to them "Gee, my item has been on eBay for five years and nobody is buying. Maybe I should lower the price."

Pure greed. That's all it comes down to. I really wish eBay would just get rid of the buy it now option and go back to auction only.
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