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Endless unproductive Software VS Hardware Bickering - Will it EVER end? Keyboard Synthesizers
View Poll Results: Will a hardware-only forum get rid of the endless bickering?
Yes - Make a new forum or rename this one and actively discourage the nonsense
13 Votes - 13.83%
No - Nothing you do will make the bickering stop, EVER!
33 Votes - 35.11%
Who cares?
48 Votes - 51.06%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

Old 8th January 2017
  #1
Endless unproductive Software VS Hardware Bickering - Will it EVER end?

Sometimes I think they need to just rename this forum software-music-instruments-software-music-production
Or more accurately software-vs-hardware-instruments-software-vs-hardware-music-production.
Even when you are just trying to discuss a particular hardware unit (like headphones) it becomes software vs hardware pissing match. EVERY single thread about hardware becomes a hardware vs software pissing match. Trying to navigate this forum for useful and informative feedback about something hardware becomes a total waste of time and effort because you have to sift through tons of this off-topic thread derailing garbage.

Are there any solutions?
There is an entire forum for computer music where people can happily go on about computer stuff without their threads being constantly derailed with arguments from hardware users.
So why isn't there a hardware only forum?
The idea of splitting up this forum has come up before and I opposed it in the past. My attitude has changed and now I think enough is enough. The bickering is endless and its turning this forum into a joke where once it was a useful resource for info on gear.

So lets revisit this idea...
Or move it to moan zone
Old 8th January 2017
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
Obviously electronic music is made with both hardware and software. Most of the gear we use incorporates both. A laptop is hardware after all. And a Prophet 5 from the 70's has software in it.

The debate is good, and central to our struggle to find the best instruments. It also changes constantly. So I think it's necessary... and the heart of this forum... to continually discuss what gear is best for what job.

And that often entails discussing the moving goal posts of hardware vs software.

P.S. I wonder if this thread can stay on topic discussing the "debate" of HW vs SW without actually diminishing "into" the debate its self, haha.
Old 8th January 2017
  #3
Gear Nut
 

Who cares? Both hardware and software are for Electronic Music Instruments & Electronic Music Production, aren't they? This also happens to be the name of this forum.

Why don't you start a forum with the name and rules you suggested instead of continuing to get annoyed in a place that makes you so angry?

I can get a lot of useful info about hardware here. Never noticed a problem you describe.
Old 8th January 2017
  #4
Lives for gear
 
breakmixer's Avatar
 

Sometimes software is totally viable alternative to hardware and it has it's place to be mentioned now and then when someone is asking about 'that sound'. I have certain VST's like for example M1, Wavestation, VirtualCZ etc that totally fill that void and makes 'for me' the hardware originals not needed or wanted when they sound 99% the same.
Old 8th January 2017
  #5
Lives for gear
 

It's just like the guitar forum, where people endlessly go on about how the only way to do something is with 60 year old gear, and then when someone asks about something new, these old farts show up and try to beat it down.
Old 8th January 2017
  #6


..ant

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Old 8th January 2017
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by m.retrofuture View Post
Never noticed a problem you describe.
Wow the revisionist history believers are the quick draws today.
You're right sir, I just imagined it all.
Hey look another flying saucer!
Old 8th January 2017
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by kslight View Post
It's just like the guitar forum, where people endlessly go on about how the only way to do something is with 60 year old gear, and then when someone asks about something new, these old farts show up and try to beat it down.
are you implying I am old and a fart?
You are correct and correct
Old 8th January 2017
  #9
PES
Lives for gear
 
PES's Avatar
fartware vs futureware

Is that really such a big problem around here? I think it's more of a problem that there are too many separate forums to check (I mainly stay here and probably miss many relevant threads at geekslutz, iOSlutz, music computers etc).
Old 8th January 2017
  #10
Lives for gear
 

It's not like the only stupid arguments around here are hardware vs software - take the current stupidity of the all hardware schmidt vs dm 12 thread, which is actually up to three pages now. No matter how you parse the topics, stupidity will always flourish. It seems to be the first law of internet interaction.
Old 8th January 2017
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowman9 View Post
are you implying I am old and a fart?
You are correct and correct
By no means, I am implying that some people put more faith in their old ways and old gear than in actually sitting down and playing... Technology rarely makes or breaks it, it's all about the person. There's tons of talented young farts making amazing stuff with a phone or tablet (or at least, a computer), and folks with broken 1 string guitars and trash cans...and there's some folks that would rather ramble on about how much better things were 60 years ago instead of making music to prove their point....

I love old gear as much as some of these old farts, but I love technology too..I would rather use whatever helps me get my work done more efficiently than fret over whether or not a computer is involved (and I do work both ways, I have reel to reel machines that see fair use as well as computers).

I realize of course this is gearslutz, not actually-sitting-down-and-playing-slutz...I only bring it up to illustrate the example that it's not local to this forum.

I find the old computer versus hardware argument a bit of a "first world problem," just play already damnit, use whatever works for you, why does it matter what anyone else uses?
Old 8th January 2017
  #12
I own, operate, amd have made music with digital, analog & hybrid hardware, both modern and vintage, discrete and modular. I also have a computer loaded with a ton of software, many of the very best instruments. I use them all together.

The discussion is absolutely fine, save for the dunning-kruger effect. This is a psychological phenomena where people are incapable of adequately assessing their level of competence or incompetence. They discovered that the very least knowledgeable people tended to falsely identify their competence level as very high, while the most competent people tend to falsely indentify their competence as lower than it actually is.

Its just one of those quirks of the human mind. The more you learn, the more you realize you have a lot more to learn, the more you begin to truly appreciate those that are even more knowledgable and experienced. Wheras you get your first DAW download, or first hardware synth and immediately feel prepared to write an epic album.

I simply wish people would keep their discussion as it pertains to their personal experience. Software only guys arguing about the affinity of SW > HW is silly nonsense. Likewise the people who always claim they can't be inspired by a computer, talking about how some SW is terrible compared to HW is equally as ridiculous and unhelpful.

Personally, I think if you are not making use of and learning to use it all, then you're missing out.
Old 8th January 2017
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by kslight View Post
By no means, I am implying that some people put more faith in their old ways and old gear than in actually sitting down and playing... Technology rarely makes or breaks it, it's all about the person. There's tons of talented young farts making amazing stuff with a phone or tablet (or at least, a computer), and folks with broken 1 string guitars and trash cans...and there's some folks that would rather ramble on about how much better things were 60 years ago instead of making music to prove their point....

I love old gear as much as some of these old farts, but I love technology too..I would rather use whatever helps me get my work done more efficiently than fret over whether or not a computer is involved (and I do work both ways, I have reel to reel machines that see fair use as well as computers).

I realize of course this is gearslutz, not actually-sitting-down-and-playing-slutz...I only bring it up to illustrate the example that it's not local to this forum.

I find the old computer versus hardware argument a bit of a "first world problem," just play already damnit, use whatever works for you, why does it matter what anyone else uses?
I agree with you 100%
I'm definitely not trying to say one is better than the other. I've done both and continue to use whatever suits the needs of my work.
My argument here is with this forum and the lack of moderation to prevent every thread about hardware from becoming a free for all jihad that takes away the value of this forum.
IMO it has gotten pointless to try work through 20 pages of a thread only to find a tiny handful of posting that are relevant, to the point and on topic due to the noise.
Perhaps it might be better if there were some tools available in here to allow off-topic posts to be flagged by us users and then a global switch to turn off the display of postings that are off-topic and derailing the thread.

And since the computer music forum exists I don't think this is asking for too much.
Obviously it is important enough to have a complete forum for that one aspect of electronic music and I think it is important also to have another segregated forum so that topics can be focused and not constantly turned into endless tiresome ranting about crap that's not productive.

I am a productive musician and I like tools that help keep me this way. I happen to use mainly hardware and so I rely on sites like this for information regarding purchases and usage of said hardware. But trying to get that here anymore is too much work and too much time wasted on unproductive sifting again and again and again.

I know this argument has come up before and I think it becomes more valid with each iteration.
Old 8th January 2017
  #14
Lives for gear
 
gremlin moon's Avatar
 

For those who want just software go to KVR. For those who want just hardware go to High-End sub or Muffs. For those who want opinions and research about all possible options and workflows here has been working pretty good for me. I don't understand why more HW-only people are not at Muffs.

I think the #1 reason that this is the most visited is because of the Lulz.
Old 8th January 2017
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Cornish1999's Avatar
I like stupid arguments

But this thread is "whack" OP
Old 8th January 2017
  #16
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowman9 View Post
I agree with you 100%
I'm definitely not trying to say one is better than the other. I've done both and continue to use whatever suits the needs of my work.
My argument here is with this forum and the lack of moderation to prevent every thread about hardware from becoming a free for all jihad that takes away the value of this forum.
IMO it has gotten pointless to try work through 20 pages of a thread only to find a tiny handful of posting that are relevant, to the point and on topic due to the noise.
Perhaps it might be better if there were some tools available in here to allow off-topic posts to be flagged by us users and then a global switch to turn off the display of postings that are off-topic and derailing the thread.

And since the computer music forum exists I don't think this is asking for too much.
Obviously it is important enough to have a complete forum for that one aspect of electronic music and I think it is important also to have another segregated forum so that topics can be focused and not constantly turned into endless tiresome ranting about crap that's not productive.

I am a productive musician and I like tools that help keep me this way. I happen to use mainly hardware and so I rely on sites like this for information regarding purchases and usage of said hardware. But trying to get that here anymore is too much work and too much time wasted on unproductive sifting again and again and again.

I know this argument has come up before and I think it becomes more valid with each iteration.

I know you're not arguing either way, hehe. There's a lot of noise here, not just hw vs sw, but essentially any topic. That's just what has become of the internet, when it became mainstream. One big "letters to the editor" section. Go to any online discussion, and there's always someone making remarks as if whatever is being discussed is somehow polarizing (right vs wrong)...and trying to convince the person on the other line of this...and while yeah "in my opinion" there are some things in the world that are truly right and wrong, though I figured out a long time ago that its unlikely that whatever I say, regardless of facts to back them up...will alter someone else's perspective...

but...to get back to this circus...music to me is art and I don't think its necessary for anyone to judge someone else's methods and tools for making art...its great we have so many choices, and how lucky most of us are to not live somewhere or likewise to be in a financial state that prevents us from expressing ourselves...
Old 8th January 2017
  #17
Lives for gear
 
3rdpath's Avatar
Like everything in life you gotta dig thru the muck to find the jewels. There's a LOT of BS and trolling in these forums but there's some fantastic info also. I appreciate that hardware and software are discussed here because, well, they're both used to create electronic music. It's nice to have the overlap and interaction because, as we've seen, the line between the two camps has dissolved to a large extent. ( except to those who want to bicker about it ).

I've become quite liberal with my ignore list and it's made the GS experience much more enjoyable.
Old 8th January 2017
  #18
Lives for gear
 
syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGEK8D View Post
The discussion is absolutely fine, save for the dunning-kruger effect.
I call it the Live-Elektron effect. Hardly a thread goes by where someone doesn't suggest Ableton or an Octotrack as a panacea for whatever ails the OP, regardless of whether the question was hardware or software, or even patch cable related!

People are going to have their biases and will try to convert others to their beliefs so that there are more people out there to confirm their bias. Sadly, that's the history of the world.

So, will the bickering stop? No. Will a new, exclusive forum help? No. Will better moderation help? Possibly, but nobody has that much time. I mean, we're all busy making music, right?

Last edited by syntonica; 8th January 2017 at 07:49 PM.. Reason: Bad Autocorect!! BAD! BAD!!!!!
Old 8th January 2017
  #19
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowman9 View Post
And since the computer music forum exists I don't think this is asking for too much.
Obviously it is important enough to have a complete forum for that one aspect of electronic music
The Music Computers forum isn't about electronic music. It is, as the title clearly suggests, about music computers. That is computers used to record, produce etc all music genres (and non music related jobs like computers for post-production). It is literally about computers, DAW software etc. It is not part of the Electronic Music section of this site. It is not to discuss electronic music production techniques or anything like that. Those kind of topics, and thus plugins used specifically to make electronic music, belong here in the Electronic Music Instruments & Electronic Music Production form.

Quote:
and I think it is important also to have another segregated forum so that topics can be focused and not constantly turned into endless tiresome ranting about crap that's not productive.
It wouldn't be another segregated forum as there isn't one for producing electronic music with software either.

Alistair
Old 8th January 2017
  #20
Lives for gear
 
BassX's Avatar
Without unproductive bickering there wouldn't be no gearslutz
Old 8th January 2017
  #21
Lives for gear
 
breakmixer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassX View Post
Without unproductive bickering there wouldn't be no gearslutz
Yes their would!
Old 8th January 2017
  #22
Gear Addict
 
Infidel's Avatar
I'm pretty sure that Ableton could do the job. If you don't like that then buy an OctaTrack, it's like Ableton but in a box.
Old 8th January 2017
  #23
Lives for gear
 
synthguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kslight View Post
There's tons of talented young farts making amazing stuff with a phone or tablet (or at least, a computer), and folks with broken 1 string guitars and trash cans...and there's some folks that would rather ramble on about how much better things were 60 years ago instead of making music to prove their point....

I love old gear as much as some of these old farts, but I love technology too..I would rather use whatever helps me get my work done more efficiently than fret over whether or not a computer is involved (and I do work both ways, I have reel to reel machines that see fair use as well as computers).

I realize of course this is gearslutz, not actually-sitting-down-and-playing-slutz...I only bring it up to illustrate the example that it's not local to this forum.

I find the old computer versus hardware argument a bit of a "first world problem," just play already damnit, use whatever works for you, why does it matter what anyone else uses?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGEK8D View Post
I own, operate, amd have made music with digital, analog & hybrid hardware, both modern and vintage, discrete and modular. I also have a computer loaded with a ton of software, many of the very best instruments. I use them all together.

I simply wish people would keep their discussion as it pertains to their personal experience. Software only guys arguing about the affinity of SW > HW is silly nonsense. Likewise the people who always claim they can't be inspired by a computer, talking about how some SW is terrible compared to HW is equally as ridiculous and unhelpful.

Personally, I think if you are not making use of and learning to use it all, then you're missing out.
Slightly edited, this is where I'm at, though I don't own a dedicated DAW studio. Hopefully that changes this summer.

I don't know why people have to be so political about everything. I would blame the kids, but I'm sure there are some old farts here who are carrying on the tradition of trolling FTW.

I love everything. I'm as musically ecumenical as they come. Own a vintage analog? Awesome, you have a piece of music history with its own signature. Got a VA? Groovy, it has some characteristics unique to it, and probably some modulation options that analog can only dream of, as well as some pretty good effects. Got some nice softies and plugins in a DAW? Super, you have 90% of a million dollar studio at less than 1% the price. Have a rompler? You have a band in a box, and you'll be surprised what incredible things it can do... etc.

But of course in this neighborhood, people have to argue about all these toys rather than celebrate them and show what they can do. Humans, go figure.

I'm all about a good debate, but I'd rather people lay out some examples of what they insist to be true rather than just be adamant about it and "trust me." I have a real problem with the "not even close" guys when clearly some YT video or Soundcloud demo shows that it is. We should be happy that we have a whole RANGE of options these days. Old hardware, new hardware, VA, rompler, softie. Some may be better than others, but when you don't have to have a real honest to Jobson CS-80, a hundred thousand dollar Neve console, an expensive Pultec original or even a real U87 Neumann mic, but can pretty much do the same thing on the sly, that should be seen as a good thing. I see it as a wonderful thing. Options, pick your weapon of choice, and record it. Give me more of this.
Old 8th January 2017
  #24
Lives for gear
 
rids's Avatar
 

That's just the nature of the industry/technology right now. Being that software has always been cheap and some people even don't pay a dime for some of it, there's naturally going to be a lot of opinions based on something that's so accessible.

It's ok if you want to talk about one or the other exclusively though and it can be done. You can be the moderator of your own thread to keep things on topic re-refering to hardware instead of software or vice versa. And of course having hardware or software in the title thread is part of it too. Things will deviate, but you must moderate.
Old 8th January 2017
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Analogue Mastering's Avatar
Who cares, you know what you own. Nuff said.....
Old 8th January 2017
  #26
Lives for gear
 

i like vintage stuff and love new stuff as well. it's where old meets new that the magic happens
Old 8th January 2017
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Jamie munro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by breakmixer View Post
Yes their would!
there*

see it's happening already
Old 8th January 2017
  #28
Deleted User
Guest
Might as well ad this, just to stir the pot.
Anyone born after 1963 will not be allowed to join the "Old Farts Hardware Only" forum.
After all, anyone under 40 is just a kid!
Old 9th January 2017
  #29
Lives for gear
 
djshire's Avatar
 

This is the internet, bickering about stupid **** is part of the reason that it exists....that and porn.
Old 9th January 2017
  #30
Lives for gear
This endless debate loop u complain about (thread starter) may largely be the very reason why software continues to make strides year in and year out at improving and getting closer to the hardware as emulations. In 97 I remember recording into a Mac for the first time no plug outs it was thin and harsh sounding to my ears coming from analog tape. Today I'm on UAD plugins with a burl mothership and while I'm not going to hijack this thread on how good they sound I am amazed and miss the recording to tape experience less and less everyday. I think the debate pushes the envelope and the developers to press on. If your tired of it I think you are missing a very valuable lesson in human evolution and acceptance and invention works, the refinement process. I read it takes 30 years to change a general accepted statement even when it's factually wrong. People thought the earth was flat for centuries and maybe some still do...
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