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Endless unproductive Software VS Hardware Bickering - Will it EVER end? Keyboard Synthesizers
View Poll Results: Will a hardware-only forum get rid of the endless bickering?
Yes - Make a new forum or rename this one and actively discourage the nonsense
13 Votes - 13.83%
No - Nothing you do will make the bickering stop, EVER!
33 Votes - 35.11%
Who cares?
48 Votes - 51.06%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

Old 12th January 2017
  #121
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Oh and I do miss Lectro Jape, whatever happened to him/her/it? Is the Deep Mind experiment over?
Old 12th January 2017
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
Oh and I do miss Lectro Jape, whatever happened to him/her/it? Is the Deep Mind experiment over?
Someone should Markov chain the garbage "analog v digital" threads and create a bot to post in future iterations of that doomed silly topic.
Old 12th January 2017
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
My point there is that that, right there, that capacitance behavior -- is exactly what all computing is, essentially, based on, too. State change, simple as that.
No, a computer is not defined by operating on state changes, and that doesn't make an analogue synth, by definition, a computer.

I think you need to address the commonly understood definition of what a modern computer is, otherwise it is nothing more than some sort of pseudo-intellectual wank, which is what I think you are going with here.
Old 12th January 2017
  #124
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Jamie munro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
All computers are synths!
Technically everything is a synth
Old 12th January 2017
  #125
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Would love it if people who have never really used a Virus TI stop saying how much smarter they are for using a VST.
Old 12th January 2017
  #126
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
So, look at what makes an analogue "waveform" -- saw core or tri core, doesn't matter.

Basically, it's a capacitor charging, reaching a certain point of charge and then being released -- the edge of the waveform (the drop-off point after the rising ramp of a rising saw wave, or vice versa, depending on how it's designed; a tri-core-based oscillator simply has relatively linear rise and fall times, with the fall precipitated, again, by the discharge of a capacitor).

My point there is that that, right there, that capacitance behavior -- is exactly what all computing is, essentially, based on, too. State change, simple as that.

Everything beyond that core representation is simply a concatenation, a congerie, a congenial combination of conformal changes, if you will... sorry, I'm out of c's..... of the same, basic principle.

So, whether it be an analogue synthesizer, or a digital one, the same processes are taking place, one represented through simple electronics component state changes, the other represented through state changes occurring in the bazillion transistors jostling each other merrily within a CPU, or DSP, or BMC or ESC2 FPGA or what have you. Those transistorial state changes are being combined to represent the equivalent behaviors from an engineering circuit point of view as the same behaviors that occur within the activities of the more primitive, capacitor/resistor/diode-based neanderthal circuitry of the pre-digital era. Sufficient resolution has been achieved in such transistor-based state change representations of pre-transistor-based state changes in "analogue" circuitry that the actual difference in the final, electronic outcome is now nearly invisible, at least when designed by the hands of true engineers who understand both the mathematics of circuit design and the subtleties of the desired behavior, all of which can be emulated and compared in exquisite detail during realtime analysis with current technological capabilities.

That's how I see it, at least.

I await edification, correction and clarification from electrical engineers who understand all this better than little I (or capital I representing little I, me, by any other name).
You have described how every digital computer is based on analogue technology but you have not explained why every analogue synth is a computer. (I don't think they are).

Alistair
Old 12th January 2017
  #127
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Turn your analogue synth down to the lowest octave capable, choose raw saw, square or sine wave, hold down a key and listen: what you hear is something going on and off. That is the fundamental basis for electronic sound..... and for computing.

It is not as binary, since the ramp up and down for an analogue capacitor discharge is not linear, the way a transistor turning on and off is; but that is a limitation of analogue computing, and why people invented the transistor as an improvement.
Old 12th January 2017
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
No, a computer is not defined by operating on state changes, and that doesn't make an analogue synth, by definition, a computer.

I think you need to address the commonly understood definition of what a modern computer is, otherwise it is nothing more than some sort of pseudo-intellectual wank, which is what I think you are going with here.
I know you would be resistant to thinking about this, as if it is true, the real pseudo-intellectual ******y is the bazillion arguments on GS over analogue vs. digital, which is what I believe.

If a computer does not use state changes -- i.e. switching circuits from on to off -- as the foundation of everything it does, I must live in a different universe from you.

I will await some more informed and sensible and not-ad-hominem-attack critique of my position on this, eagerly.

But your contribution above adds nothing to the discussion.
Old 12th January 2017
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
If a computer does not use state changes -- i.e. switching circuits from on to off -- as the foundation of everything it does, I must live in a different universe from you.
That is not what I said, learn how to read and comprehend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
I will await some more informed and sensible and not-ad-hominem-attack critique of my position on this, eagerly.

But your contribution above adds nothing to the discussion.
Your pseudo-intellectual BS adds nothing to anything.
Old 12th January 2017
  #130
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Bach666's Avatar
 

No, it will never end. It is alive and strong.
Old 12th January 2017
  #131
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Yes, you can compute stuff with state changes and thus say that it is a "computer". I.e. a box of matches can be used to compute and say that they are a computer and then start to discuss wether a box of matches is better for lighting a fire than a MacBook Pro (which can also be used to light a fire).

However, this is not very intelligent discussion.

Instead of arguing about semantics, like a bunch of argumentation club geeks, you could talk wether it could be reasonable to have a hardware section and a software section in here.

My input is to just point out that the "Music Computers" section on GS is ironically much worse place to discuss about making music with computers than ie. Electronic Music forum. It's like discussing about computers in a queue to Apple Helpdesk..
Old 12th January 2017
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
That is not what I said, learn how to read and comprehend.


Your pseudo-intellectual BS adds nothing to anything.
Well, at least we're bickering endlessly... so we're on topic!

Anyways, back to my point. Eurorack people should easily get this.

What's the difference between an oscillator and an LFO? Simply the frequency rate.

What is an LFO? Any modulator? A gate that opens and closes at a specified interval. Maths makes this obvious: the envelope and lfo capabilities are one and the same. An LFO is basically a gate that cycles repeatedly.

What is an envelope? Merely the changing of the slope of the attack, decay and release times, sometimes with hold level to affect the amplitude at maximum open.

What is a gate? An envelope that has a linear rise and stays open until the gate is closed, then has a linear fall.

What is a trigger? A gate that immediately opens and closes to some level, with an uncontrolled open time, determined by the nature of the trigger.

What are synthesizers? Combinations of triggers, gates, envelopes, modulators and oscillators. No more, no less.

What is a computer? Essentially, exactly the same thing, but managed through software to combine very simple gates -- we can call them logic gates, if we want -- into forms that represent all the above-named functions on a synthesizer.

I continue to wait for a reasoned counterargument.

Last edited by realtrance; 12th January 2017 at 07:41 PM..
Old 12th January 2017
  #133
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Klonfocius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie munro View Post
Technically everything is a synth
A synth is the only "thing" that can produce a pure and prolonged sine wave, think of that!
Old 12th January 2017
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
A synth is the only "thing" that can produce a pure and prolonged sine wave, think of that!
Pure sine wave power inverter?

My tinnitus?
Old 13th January 2017
  #135
Gear Guru
 
Yoozer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
I continue to wait for a reasoned counterargument.
Synths aren't Turing-complete.
Old 13th January 2017
  #136
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DrJustice's Avatar
 

^ That's not a requirement for a computer (that said, realtrance's argument is not my argument).

Sorry again, but this thread has already devolved, there's no saving it
Old 13th January 2017
  #137
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Klonfocius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
Pure sine wave power inverter?
No such thing! Thay all cause HF artefarts!

Quote:
My tinnitus?
Tinnitus is neck based, get some neck masage or acupuncture,
some of your nerves in the neck are squashed.
Old 13th January 2017
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
Tinnitus is neck based, get some neck masage or acupuncture, some of your nerves in the neck are squashed.
Tinnitus can be caused by a number of things, my tinnitus is from long term hearing damage, your inner ear auditory hair cells get irreparably damaged from excessive/cumulative noise exposure.
Old 13th January 2017
  #139
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Klonfocius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
Tinnitus can be caused by a number of things, my tinnitus is from long term hearing damage, your inner ear auditory hair cells get irreparably damaged from excessive/cumulative noise exposure.
Thats the usual myth spread from faulty sience.

I might sound as a "used car salesdude" but i take the risk, tinnitus is not ear
based its brain based on a malfunctioned nerve system. I have partial tinnitus.

All you have to do is to just go and try it out, what do you have to lose?
Old 13th January 2017
  #140
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syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
Thats the usual myth spread from faulty sience.

I might sound as a "used car salesdude" but i take the risk, tinnitus is not ear
based its brain based on a malfunctioned nerve system. I have partial tinnitus.

All you have to do is to just go and try it out, what do you have to lose?
I get aspirin-based tinnitus if I take more than one pill at a time. There goes your "one cure to rule then all..."

Sadly, sudden or constant loud noises can cause damage to your hearing. Tinnitus is but one symptom. If you have neck injuries and didn't lead a total rock n roll lifestyle, then chiropracty is worth looking into.
Old 13th January 2017
  #141
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fanriffic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
Tinnitus is neck based
Bollocks.
Old 14th January 2017
  #142
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robotunes's Avatar
Tinnitus is caused by using software. Using analog gear is healthier.

Just trying to remind everyone what we're supposed to be not bickering about.

Old 14th January 2017
  #143
Gear Maniac
 
MuffWigglerShop's Avatar
 

this whole thread.. ugh.. if you're worried about hardware vs software arguments on the internet.. well.. people don't get better at their chosen craft by hanging around on internet forums. as helpful as they can be and as fun as they can sometimes be.. if you're here all the time then you aren't making music or learning your tools... you're worried about stupid meaningless arguments on the internet.

sorry.. but it's true.

go make some music. don't sweat the small stuff.
Old 14th January 2017
  #144
Lives for gear
 
Looping Loddar's Avatar
 

To tell you the truth:

1) I am against endless unproductive software.

If something is endless and unproductive, it still can be joy. But, then, is shouldn't be software. On the other hand lots (i think: most) of my software is unproductive. Softsynths i dont use enough. Games etc.

2) I like hardware bickering. Really.

I think it can be productive. Sometimes. And, really, if you think about a Poly 800 or a Timber Wolf: S-TINA. Sometimes - there is no alternative. If waisting some of your time isnt your cup of tea, then some of these slut discussions are not the right choice for you.

(note 2 myself: mixing irony, joking and some serial stuff will never work)
Old 14th January 2017
  #145
Deleted User
Guest
Time for some comic relief re: arguments!
https://youtu.be/kQFKtI6gn9Y?t=73
Old 14th January 2017
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
Well, at least we're bickering endlessly... so we're on topic!

Anyways, back to my point. Eurorack people should easily get this.

What's the difference between an oscillator and an LFO? Simply the frequency rate.

What is an LFO? Any modulator? A gate that opens and closes at a specified interval. Maths makes this obvious: the envelope and lfo capabilities are one and the same. An LFO is basically a gate that cycles repeatedly.

What is an envelope? Merely the changing of the slope of the attack, decay and release times, sometimes with hold level to affect the amplitude at maximum open.

What is a gate? An envelope that has a linear rise and stays open until the gate is closed, then has a linear fall.

What is a trigger? A gate that immediately opens and closes to some level, with an uncontrolled open time, determined by the nature of the trigger.

What are synthesizers? Combinations of triggers, gates, envelopes, modulators and oscillators. No more, no less.

What is a computer? Essentially, exactly the same thing, but managed through software to combine very simple gates -- we can call them logic gates, if we want -- into forms that represent all the above-named functions on a synthesizer.

I continue to wait for a reasoned counterargument.
Good lord man- issue a warning before these posts- I was having fun in the kiddie section of the pool watching arguers splash each other and you toss me in the deep end- I am still coughing water (though your points made sense).

Now back to the splashy spirit of this thread:

Was Mariah Carey set up with that lip synch malfunction? Some argue she was just lazy and didn't practice- but she has pro lip synched for over 2 decades now and can do this in her sleep- I suspect sabotage (Beyonce?)
Old 14th January 2017
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil View Post
< Any feedback on how this forum should be, is welcome.
The differences between hardware, software in discussions, we thought up the tag system for that. Whenever you start a thread, you're prompted to assign a tag, a category. The goal is then, press "hardware" and you only see the discussions about hardware. No need to split the forum. You see what you want to see. But it's not really there yet. I hope this year, I think it's a nice way to sort out preferred forum view.
Why not split up the forum? There've been calls to give modular synths a subforum. But then.... we'd have 100 subfora really soon. And then we'd spend a lot of time clicking to go into these subfora, and it would quickly turn into a mess.
You see, the nice thing about this forum is that EVERYTHING regarding electronic music production is discussed.
This way you don't get an "echochamber" effect and you're exposed to different methods and gear, things that might've escaped your attention before.
That might annoy you, so I hope the internet overlords can fully implement the tag system, so you'll only see hardware or software, if you want. >
Its very important that we create ways for people to further self-segregate and listen only to view that they agree with- we simply don't have enough of this in the world already. I would suggest a series of tags where people can customize their threads to only those echo chambers they feel "safe" in.

But since this is GS I think we can go further- we should offer differing types of echo chambers about each subject:

1. Dotted eights: strict echo chamber of similar views

2. Left/right delay: echo chamber but with differing feedback from people who mostly agree with you and those who 'slightly" disagree

3. Convolution: echo chamber with particular characteristics- you can choose from "lofty thoughts" (cathedral) to raunchy bro-slaps (small club)

As it stands GS is a dangerous forum for cultural mixing and compromise- the internet overloads here might wish to consult with the Facebook pros on how to increase narrowness
Old 14th January 2017
  #148
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SonicBern's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuffWigglerShop View Post
this whole thread.. ugh.. if you're worried about hardware vs software arguments on the internet.. well.. people don't get better at their chosen craft by hanging around on internet forums. as helpful as they can be and as fun as they can sometimes be.. if you're here all the time then you aren't making music or learning your tools... you're worried about stupid meaningless arguments on the internet.

sorry.. but it's true.

go make some music. don't sweat the small stuff.
If any of that is aimed at the OP, it would appear you do not get his point...
Old 14th January 2017
  #149
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDGEK8D View Post
I own, operate, amd have made music with digital, analog & hybrid hardware, both modern and vintage, discrete and modular. I also have a computer loaded with a ton of software, many of the very best instruments. I use them all together.

The discussion is absolutely fine, save for the dunning-kruger effect. This is a psychological phenomena where people are incapable of adequately assessing their level of competence or incompetence. They discovered that the very least knowledgeable people tended to falsely identify their competence level as very high, while the most competent people tend to falsely indentify their competence as lower than it actually is.

Its just one of those quirks of the human mind. The more you learn, the more you realize you have a lot more to learn, the more you begin to truly appreciate those that are even more knowledgable and experienced. Wheras you get your first DAW download, or first hardware synth and immediately feel prepared to write an epic album.

I simply wish people would keep their discussion as it pertains to their personal experience. Software only guys arguing about the affinity of SW > HW is silly nonsense. Likewise the people who always claim they can't be inspired by a computer, talking about how some SW is terrible compared to HW is equally as ridiculous and unhelpful.

Personally, I think if you are not making use of and learning to use it all, then you're missing out.


I've had Hallowman9 on my mute list for a while for insisting that I hated digital hardware synths because I made a statement that for me I got better use of my money and space by keeping my hardware synths mostly analog (I still had an XITE-1 at the time). He seemed intent on having me as an adversary. Why? I have no idea, but it does seem like religious arguments where two different sects of Christianity or Islam decide they need to fight to the death because they have differeing opinions on the correct way to be nice.

The truth is, we live in amazing times. All the amazing ITB stuff only means that hard core hardware users have a better chance of obtaining their beloved hardware gear because it gives people an option. I remember not too long ago, if you couldn't afford vintage analog synths or modern digital synths like the Virus, there wasn't much. Then computers got fast enough to run decent quality software synths. Now the average home computer puts the processing power of most digital synths to shame. Still want to use an An1x? Have at it, but at least now people have a choice.

But still the "kill the unbelievers!" message persists. Don Solaris sh!t on me for suggesting that Waldorf's PPG 3 plug in was a good low price alternative to the original. I didn't even say it was the same, just good. As if someone who loved their original PPG would say, "Yeah Mark, you're right, I'll sell mine!" Nope, but it's a good option for those on a budget. I don't even care if it sounds like the original. I love it for what it is.

There's plenty of things I realize are not for me. Hardcore hardware modular is one of them. Still, I'm glad it exists and I'll happily enjoy music made with it. I couldn't imagine starting a thread that suggested they should be segregated to a special forum on this site. Just because I don't use it doesn't even mean I'm not interested in finding out what's going on in that world. I love it all.
Old 14th January 2017
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuffWigglerShop View Post
this whole thread.. ugh.. if you're worried about hardware vs software arguments on the internet.. well.. people don't get better at their chosen craft by hanging around on internet forums. as helpful as they can be and as fun as they can sometimes be.. if you're here all the time then you aren't making music or learning your tools... you're worried about stupid meaningless arguments on the internet.

sorry.. but it's true.

go make some music. don't sweat the small stuff.
But they have fun arguing endlessly and uselessly over nothing! It's a good release, kind of like sideswiping the car next to you on the highway randomly.... oh wait, no. Oh well.

I keep trying to kill this thread; I'm excellent at killing threads on the internet.

But this is proving to be a real beast of a thread.

And now I see zerocrossing has stepped in, so my hopes have been dashed.

Let's have a discussion about 3v triggers vs 5v triggers, maybe, and whether higher-volt triggers are useful in Eurorack for percussive-type patches? Is an 8v trigger enough???? Or will it never emulate the multi-triggered capacitance rise on a TB-303 attack envelope sufficiently to matter?????

OTOH I do think the pitch A/D envelope was invented to try to provide the same punch capability with more control, I find it's really cool to use an inverted A/D envelope with A and D set just right to get that initial bonk in a sound. OTOH said bonk is NOTHING like the bonk you'll get from a good opto-isolator. Which is completely unpredictable, just like analogue, since no two opto-isolators are ever completely identical. Why, I don't know, but so I've been told, and experience has indicated to me at least that this is true.

I always thought opto-isolators were only used for MIDI signals, until I ran into Eurorack.

There, maybe that will do it......?
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