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Green Glue alternatives
Old 29th April 2014
  #1
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Green Glue alternatives

Hi Folks. I can't source green glue where I am - New Zealand.
Has anyone had any success or can suggest alternatives?

The studios I have been involved in building in the UK used some form of silicone between the drywall sheets.
My build up will be two dry wall one, mdf and I am looking for something that will offer some of the damping properties of Green Glue.

(I am still trying to source some but it is proving very difficult as there are restrictions on importing some compounds and I can't get a straight answer)
Old 29th April 2014
  #2
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jinksdingo's Avatar
polyurethane in those large caulking sausages remains soft and resists hardening. There are fillers and adhesives comes in white grey black, some also come in other colors.
It smells while curing but what doesn't.
Use like you would green glue
Old 29th April 2014
  #3
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

polyurethane caulk is not anything like Green Glue and will not perform in the same manner.......

All caulks "set up" this regardless of how soft they might be after having set........

Green glue never actually sets - and this is the reason it works......... sound waves passing through the wall create shear forces that essentially tear the green glue - with the result being the dissipation of the sound energy into heat.....

This will never occur with any caulk......... in fact caulk essentially bonds the 2 sheets together - in which case you will decrease the isolation performance of the wall compared to the same number of individual sheets installed without the caulk present.

Sorry - but it simply doesn't work......

Rod
Old 29th April 2014
  #4
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

nz,

If you can't source Green Glue or quiet glue - you can always simply add more mass.........

Rod
Old 29th April 2014
  #5
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nzl62's Avatar
 

whats quiet glue Rod? Any specific brands I could try to source?
Old 29th April 2014
  #6
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

QuietGlue Pro is a specific brand of product that's similar to Green Glue........

I have made an inquiry to see if there are any dealers in NZ on your behalf........ will let you know what I find out when the company responds.

Perhaps it wouldn't cost you an arm and 2 legs to have it shipped from Australia?

If that's an alternative for you this is a company there that sells Green Glue:

Ultrafonic Pty Ltd
7/35 Wickham Street
Newmarket Qld 4051
Australiahttp://www.blogger.com/img/gl.link.gif
Phone +61 7 3856 6181
Fax +61 7 3856 4397
email [email protected]

I also found a company (Foam Sealant) who says that they are a supplier for both Australia and New Zealand for Green Glue:

foamsealant.com.au/about-us/

Rod
Old 29th April 2014
  #7
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nzl62's Avatar
 

Welcome to Bostik This product has turned up and looks like it has been assessed by Marshall Day. Theres a pdf on the rh side of the page
Old 29th April 2014
  #8
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
Welcome to Bostik This product has turned up and looks like it has been assessed by Marshall Day. Theres a pdf on the rh side of the page
That is an acoustic caulk - they explain that in their documentation - it is an edge seal only - and has no properties that would make it an equivalent to Green Glue.

Rod
Old 29th April 2014
  #9
one product ive used that is like Green glue is called Quiet Seal. its made by the same people that make Quiet rock drywall. Its in a tube and white in color. Personally I like green glue better and its easier to clean up. quiet seal was impossible to get off your hands without solvent...yuck!
Old 30th April 2014
  #10
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Located a dealer that will ship from OZ to NZ. Builder says 16 sheets on inner skin so I may save a little and go for 1.5 tubes per sheet and make it an even two boxes
Do you use green glue where first sheet meets framing? Also after watching the vid on installation it doesn't look like the seal the edges of the sheets , is this correct?
Lastly at risk of being a bore, my build up on inner shell is planned to be staggered std, drywall sheel, green glue, mdf sheet. This ok?

The decision to go to mdf is to have a different density materil and one that is easy to fix to such as surround monitor brackets and lastly, easier to finish. Inner acoustic treatments on top of this and I have plans for framing to hold in rockwool etc
Old 30th April 2014
  #11
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norton's Avatar
Quiet seal is a caulking product isn't it?

You do NOT want cauilk or any substitute to a damping compound like green glue or quiet glue between your sheeting layers. You'll have a ton of problems with triple leafing that will not only undermine the effectiveness of your walls at blocking sound transmission, but a system like that can also create some funky acoustic issues in your room. resonant walls etc...
Old 30th April 2014
  #12
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norton View Post
Quiet seal is a caulking product isn't it?

You do NOT want cauilk or any substitute to a damping compound like green glue or quiet glue between your sheeting layers. You'll have a ton of problems with triple leafing that will not only undermine the effectiveness of your walls at blocking sound transmission, but a system like that can also create some funky acoustic issues in your room. resonant walls etc...
Absolutely - Quiet Seal is a caulk - it is not a suitable substitute for any of the constrained layer damping products.

Rod
Old 1st May 2014
  #13
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Can I substitute acoustic caulk with silicon caulk? Silicon caulk doesn't crack once it's cured and it's flexible.
Old 1st May 2014
  #14
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RickD's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
Can I substitute acoustic caulk with silicon caulk? Silicon caulk doesn't crack once it's cured and it's flexible.
Im in Mexico and i might have a similar question. Finding green glue here would be as easy as finding a town without tacos.
I need a generic option.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions guys.
Old 1st May 2014
  #15
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seiyafan View Post
Can I substitute acoustic caulk with silicon caulk? Silicon caulk doesn't crack once it's cured and it's flexible.
No you can't - in fact there isn't any caulk that can be used as a substitute.....


Green Glue is not a caulk...... all caulks set - this is one of the things that makes then work: they are fluid when applied - they bond to the surfaces - and then they set.

GG (and products like it) never set - the remain fluid - and it is for this reason that they work.......

They shear (as sound transmissions pass through them) and dissipate heat while doing so, then, because of the fact that the products remain "fluid" - the point where they shear re-bonds with the adjoining material - which allows the process to continue to take place......

There is not a caulk made that would work (as caulk needs to work) if this were to take place....

Without this process taking place the products you are thinking of using as replacements won't work...... and it actually goes beyond that - the products you are thinking of using will also bond the sheets of drywall together - and this may well reduce the amount of isolation you get with the layers.

This because there is a benefit to having the same amount of mass in multiple layers rather than a single layer......... and it is not simply due to the overlappping of seams...........

You have a couple of options you can consider:

The first is to simply decide that it's worth it for you to pay the costs of importing the products......

The 2nd is to simply use additional layers of mass to achieve the same results.

I do not use CLD products on the vast majority of projects I design - this because it is not always necessary......... and when I do use these products it is because the added costs make sense from the point of view of the benefit I receive by doing so..........

When I can reach the design goals by simply using additional mass at the right price point it makes no sense to spend more money simply to use CLD products.

Rod
Old 1st May 2014
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD View Post
Im in Mexico and i might have a similar question. Finding green glue here would be as easy as finding a town without tacos.
I need a generic option.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions guys.
Uhhh, you can buy from the US without problems.
Old 1st May 2014
  #17
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nzl62's Avatar
 

I think you'll be able to source from US pretty easily
Import restrictions are prob only issue if any
Old 1st May 2014
  #18
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jinksdingo's Avatar
polyurethane isn't a caulk.
I erred in mentioning the large caulking gun to describe the dispensing gun as a caulking gun. Either the filler or the adhesive is a totally different product to caulk. Both remain remain rubber like and flexible and don't freeze or go hard.

It isn't at all like a caulk. Silicon isn't a caulk either.
caulk is caulk, it does go hard eventually. Some silicons go hard too with age.

OP asked for an alternative and it is an alternative. It may not be as good as
unvulcanized rubber.

Green glue may be soft and may never cure, but I doubt that claim as that would mean it would continually be giving off a smell by continually reacting to air and never complete that chemical process.

I mean, unvulcanized rubber is also a very good alternative
Old 1st May 2014
  #19
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Jinks,

Quote:
DAP® Premium Polyurethane Construction Adhesive Sealant

A one-part, moisture-curing, non-sag elastomeric commercial-grade sealant. It is specifically formulated to provide a long-lasting, durable seal when filling exterior gaps, joints and cracks. This high-performance sealant offers superior adhesion to most substrates and remains flexible to withstand up to ±35% joint movement when installed into a properly prepared joint. Exceptional cut and tear resistance. Handles foot and vehicle traffic. Paintable. Indoor/Outdoor use. Meets or exceeds ASTM C920, Type S, Grade NS, Class 35. Use T, NT, O, M, I. CAN/CGSB 19.13-M87 and Federal Specification TT-S-00230C, Type II, Class A.
There is no intrinsic difference between caulks and sealants, the words are interchangeable...... the former originating (of course) within the boat building industry and that latter with landlubbers....... companies generally use the term "sealant" for their more expensive line of products, however they all have the same properties in one regard - they all "set-up" in order to do the job they are designed to do.

Now, I don't know about forever because I haven't been around quite that long......BUT - I do know that Eric Desart and I both looked at this very hard when we were dealing with review of the documentation and tests taking place before the release of Green Glue to the market place...... we were both reviewing the test data that was ongoing with GG, and we were both concerned about the possibility of the product "setting up" - this because if that were to take place the product could not possibly work long term, this due to the fact that the shearing/release of heat is the only way this product can do what it does.

Now Eric is pretty sharp; (much more so than I) and we were in direct communication as we went through all of this, so Eric set up a little experiment to see whether or not the product was going to behave like a sealant...

He took a spot in a building located on his property and installed a piece of plywood on the underside of a ceiling frame - covered it with Green Glue and then attached another piece of plywood to the underside of it.

Then once a year he went out and removed the bottom sheet of plywood to inspect the condition of the GG (by the way - not an easy task - he said this product is real sticky.)

While I have no idea how many years he did this in total - I do know that he did it for at least 5 years.... this because it was 5 times he reported to me the results of his yearly examinations.

We were both pretty amazed (and happy) to find that it remained in it's "sticky non-set" state for all 5 of those examinations.

Now - I would imagine that were you to simply open a can and allow it to vent to the atmosphere that it may well behave differently than it would were if the can were to remain closed...... this due to the off-gassing that would take place during that open air exposure, and I will admit that don't know exactly what the outcome would be in that case.

However - with the exception of Eric's little test - no one is deliberately removing wall surfaces to expose this to free air conditions after installation - and even with free air exposure I know that whatever off-gassing took place during Eric's test periods was not enough to stop the product from working as intended.

So I am sorry - but you are mistaken......... Green Glue does not "set up" - it does not behave the same as caulks/sealants.... this regardless of what you may or may not believe.

Caulks/Sealants cannot do the same job as this product - the only thing they can do is bond sheets together.

There is not a single test (or at least not one that I am aware of) that shows there is any benefit whatsoever to using those products between 2 sheets of drywall when it comes to increasing the isolation levels of wall assemblies.

Now - and with all due respect of course - you might be a brilliant audio engineer - but that doesn't make you expert in the field of acoustic isolation.

If you happen to have some test data that proves me wrong I would love to have a chance to examine it - but if this is simply a case of you thinking that it would help - without empirical data to support the claim - then I would suggest to the OP (and any others who might be interested) to not bother wasting their time and money based on a simple unproven belief of yours.

Rod
Old 1st May 2014
  #20
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norton's Avatar
Are we talking about sealing edges and gaps..... Or are we talking about a constrained damped layer between sheets of wall board?

Polyseamseal is great for edges etc...... But it will NOT act anything like a green glue or quiet glue between layers of wallboard. Poly caulks or sealants will give you triple leaf nightmares and leave you weeping.
Old 1st May 2014
  #21
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nzl62's Avatar
 

one thing I am still a little unsure of is the actual sealing of sheets.
Green glue the sheets them selves but use a caulk to bond first sheet to frame and and to seal edges of both the first and subsequent sheets?
My build starts Monday a group of standard chippies to I need to be very very clear
I would use some of this bostik product to do the non green glue jobs Welcome to Bostik
Is this ok?
Old 1st May 2014
  #22
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You are basically looking for a non-hardening/non-curing material that acts as a very thin spacer/dampner. Green Glue is a latex polymer that has this property (non-curing). Something else that has a proven track for this property and has been around much longer is Polyisobutylene. It is commonly used as the first seal in commercial insulated glass units. It holds the two peices of glass and metal spacer in place with the vacuum or in some cases non-air mixture of gases (it's non-gas permable) while staying flexable for the life of the unit (non-curing). There is a huge amount of expansion/contraction that occurs on a daily basis when the unit is in place on the outside of a building so that particular seal needs to stay flexable/uncured/hold or you get a failure of the unit (typically condensation forms inside the unit). The secondary seal of the insulated glass unit (which is a type of Silicone) seals the outside edge of the unit to the glass and spacer for a hard superfast cure so the unit can be moved/crated/transported quickly after the unit is made without the unit sliding apart. The Silcone keeps the unit from sliding apart, the Polyisobutylene is what seals it.

I've cut apart over decade old insulated units and the "Butyl" first seal is still as fresh/non-hardened as the day the unit was made. Other products that use this non-hardening Butyl are Mirror Mastic and some roofing products where many years later the product has not hardened/cured. You can buy Butyl caulk but have to be aware of it's makeup (how much of it is Polyisobutylene) for much less than Green Glue.

Butyl Sealants | Long-Lasting Butyl Sealants for Masonry, Steel, Glass and Other Materials

This has been debated here in the forums before but I've never seen any proof that "Butyl" is not equal in performance to Green Glue.
Old 1st May 2014
  #23
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
one thing I am still a little unsure of is the actual sealing of sheets.
Green glue the sheets them selves but use a caulk to bond first sheet to frame and and to seal edges of both the first and subsequent sheets?
My build starts Monday a group of standard chippies to I need to be very very clear
I would use some of this bostik product to do the non green glue jobs Welcome to Bostik
Is this ok?
You're over thinking this......

You do not need to do anything behind the first layer - simply screw it to the studs....

You do not need to caulk the seams in body of the wall - on the first layer do a single layer of tape. Let the tape joints cure then do the GG and 2nd layer of drywall..... when you install the drywall lap the joints at least one stud bay - if you install the base layer of sheets laying down (and are doing the same with the top layer) instead of floor to ceiling - lap the horizontal joint as well.

In the corners (where walls meet walls - and walls meet the ceiling) and where the wall meets the floor - leave 1/4" to 3/8" joints - install backer rod and caulk.

Once the drywall is all installed and caulked - you can tape the fiace layer to whatever degree of quality you wish based on room finishes.

Rod
Old 2nd May 2014
  #24
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nzl62's Avatar
 

Thanks so much Rod. Let the games begin....
Old 2nd May 2014
  #25
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post

This has been debated here in the forums before but I've never seen any proof that "Butyl" is not equal in performance to Green Glue.
Have you ever seen any proof that it IS equal in performance to GG. Or do you think that not having proof that it is not equal in performance to a tested/proven product is (in and of itself) proof that it IS equal?

Are you aware of some laboratory test data that I've never been able to find?

Perhaps there is data .......... and perhaps you would share it with us, that would help a lot.

From my perspective the problem with any of these "yes they work, but I cannot provide any test data to prove they work" products - and that is that no one can predict the results of their efforts......

It's great to say that something works - it is another thing altogether for someone to design an isolation system with expectations of a particular result based on that simple statement.

People don't pay the cash it takes to build isolated assemblies just because they want to spend money - they do it because they have a particular need.......

Now - when you have a product like GG you can sit down - look at the test results - compare those results against any particular tested design you might want to use - and you can determine what the most cost effective means is to reach your goal......

Or you can use the alternative - which is to listen to people who say "I did it this way and I'm happy" and take the chance that your level of satisfaction and their level of satisfaction might happen to be the same......

There is (however) a fact that I know to be true - and that is that it is physically impossible for the product you refer to to work in the same manner as GG..... this because it is impossible for it to shear when sound waves pass through the wall.........

Until I see some results from certified labs that these "equivalent" products actually work the same as proven tested products - I will place the claims on the same shelf that I have reserved for the $1,000 6' power cords that are marketed with the claims they make your gear quiet (or "sound better" in general.)

Rod
Old 2nd May 2014
  #26
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A few years ago, Doc Geddes suggested some equivalent industrial products.
This is my 'but' list.
a] You had to buy a large commercial container and the price was not a lot less than Green Glue.
b] No one ever tested the acoustical properties.
c] No one ever tested the long term results.
Old 2nd May 2014
  #27
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norton's Avatar
I was personally involved in a very extensive line (upwards of hundreds) of tests with green glue. I can not remember a specific butyl test.....but I do remember that nearly every conceivable material was explored to exhaustion.

At the time, gg was the only company specifically designing new materials targeted at acoustic transmission in walls. Other folks were repurposing and re-packaging old tech.

Every possible assembly was explored. Gg on studs, etc. None outperformed gg between sheets of wallboard. None outperformed gg and the gg sealants. Analogs....yes, quiet solutions sealants and their current glue formulas, But nothing "off the shelf".

The curiosity and testing was exhaustive and complete. 'Nuff said.
Old 2nd May 2014
  #28
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Rod, the linked above Pecora BA-98 and probably some of the Tremco product will have acoustical test data with sound transmission using Aluminum / Steel pannels used in exterior walls of high rises (one reason the product was develpoed in the first place a long time ago) as for drywall use who knows, do some digging if you want. The product does the same function in either application though.

I'm not aware of some magic property that Green Glue has. It doesn't cure and thus acts as a dampner between two surfaces, so do other materials and thus get fairly equal results (application amount seems to be the most deteriment factor even in Green Glue's own testing data). Unless Green Glue is claiming something else it's pretty straight forward what it does and how it works. I also understand the principle of CYA (cover your a*s) with construction. People are free to make their own choices however the OP was looking for ALTERNATIVES and I posted info related to that.

If anything Green Glue is the "$1k Power Cord" given it's just Latex and he should be able to make a very good profit at $5 a tube now that he is in bulk sales (he doesn't make it himself). Given costs for both materials and labor but ONLY looking at material costs in this example, typical Green Glue use is 2 tubes per sheet of 4'x8' drywall (two $10 tubes ='s $20 for 32 square feet). In the area I'm located with careful shoping you can get about 2" depth of drywall for that same 32 square feet at that same $20 cost. Many would be better off spending the same money on the extra drywall getting more isolation from mass (of course depends on the application and isolation requirements).

Just showing it's good to look at a problem from multiple solutions.
Old 2nd May 2014
  #29
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Rod, the linked above Pecora BA-98 and probably some of the Tremco product will have acoustical test data with sound transmission using Aluminum / Steel pannels used in exterior walls of high rises (one reason the product was develpoed in the first place a long time ago) as for drywall use who knows, do some digging if you want. The product does the same function in either application though.
It functioning the same in either case is an assumption on your part - I can't find anywhere where the company itself makes that claim.

In the specific case of the example you give the value is most probably due to decoupling....... not an uncommon means to achieve benefit in high rise construction. I've done quite a bit of that in my career - so I am not ignorant when it comes to that specific approach.

The only references I can find on their site related to sound isolation have to do with through wall & floor penetrations of piping systems, this as part of a fire/smoke/acoustic isolation system - and in this case it is specialized caulking systems providing the benefit.........decoupling of the surfaces via isolating the penetrations from the structure they're passing through being of great import.

Quote:
I'm not aware of some magic property that Green Glue has. It doesn't cure and thus acts as a dampner between two surfaces, so do other materials and thus get fairly equal results (application amount seems to be the most deteriment factor even in Green Glue's own testing data). Unless Green Glue is claiming something else it's pretty straight forward what it does and how it works. I also understand the principle of CYA (cover your a*s) with construction.

People are free to make their own choices however the OP was looking for ALTERNATIVES and I posted info related to that.
There are a number of products specific to these sorts of applications that are similar to Green Glue - QuietGlue being one of them - and I have no problem referring people to other companies (than GG) in that regard....... this because I have no vested interest in GG (or any other company for that matter) - however all of those companies have 1 thing in common - that being that their products have been tested - and (as such) you can tell exactly what benefit you receive when using them.........

And that (from my perspective anyway) is very important when advising people who are looking for answers..... at least that way no one can ever make the claim that I suggested "A" to them and it didn't meet their needs....... If they have data that proves the benefit and then their needs aren't met that has to do with their overall design - not my advice.

Quote:
If anything Green Glue is the "$1k Power Cord" given it's just Latex and he should be able to make a very good profit at $5 a tube now that he is in bulk sales (he doesn't make it himself). Given costs for both materials and labor but ONLY looking at material costs in this example, typical Green Glue use is 2 tubes per sheet of 4'x8' drywall (two $10 tubes ='s $20 for 32 square feet). In the area I'm located with careful shoping you can get about 2" depth of drywall for that same 32 square feet at that same $20 cost. Many would be better off spending the same money on the extra drywall getting more isolation from mass (of course depends on the application and isolation requirements).
That is 100% wrong......... GG is not the 1k power cord....... GG does exactly what it claims to do (unlike the 1k Power Cord) - it makes no claims that aren't backed up 100% with extensive testing to prove exactly what you can expect for results.

Your 2" deep drywall comparison isn't really all that meaningful......

Begin with 2 layers of drywall on either face of the wall that's the starting point - your next 6db boost is then that additional 2 layers each face - so 4 layers each face......

Now - assuming that you're correct that the cost/benefit is about the same as the green glue - that means that with GG you can install 1 sheet - then the GG with the 2nd sheet and you're done...... so 4 sheets total and GG...

I believe the labor cost of the additional 4 sheets you have to install push the labor costs way beyond the cost of installing the GG........

Then there is also (quite often) structural considerations that can get involved when it comes to the total load... especially when it comes to floated rooms........ there again a product like GG can make perfect sense....

Now - as I have said on numerous occasions - GG is not for everyone or every project..... but - there is a point where when you look at the need - and exactly what you would have to design from the perspective of mass (and the labor to install that mass) compared to a lesser amount of mass and GG (with all associated labors costs of course) to reach the exact same goal when it comes to the level of isolation you need - then Green Glue makes perfect sense...... it's ALWAYS about the cost/performance side of the equation.... nothing else really matters......

Quote:
Just showing it's good to look at a problem from multiple solutions.

Understood - however it's still problematic when suggested solutions cannot be qualified to any extent........

Have a great day,

Rod
Old 2nd May 2014
  #30
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Rod,

I am amazed at how GG is still being underrated and even badmouthed by some.
It is not snake oil.

They have solid test data.
But they would fare well by doing some more solid tests, European style.
They have no test data ref. a double gypsum wall augmenting an exising heavy brick (or any other heavy material) wall.

My mastering room is concrete floating floor, lime-sandstone (approx the same mass as concrete, but much more inert) walls.
For the ceiling I opted for a triple layer of Fermacell (twice as heavy as gypsum) with two layers of 1.5x GG between.

I am glad I did !
Applying the first layer of GG I noticed a very peculiar thing. The first layer of Fermacell ceiling was already done, so the walls got more mass on them. They were still slightly resonant.
When we added just about 3m2 (7% of the surface) of the second layer (with GG) I noticed the walls (when knocking on them) became a hell of a lot less resonant.

I thought about ripping the two boards off again, glueing a contact mic on the walls and record/measure some stuff). But I was too much into the build and just went ahead.

The effect was this extreme to me. It was as if the unfinished ceiling was starting to suck the life out of the walls - hard to explain.

There is no way an increase in mass of just 40 Kg to the ceiling could make such an impact to 23.000 Kg of walls...

In my mind, the superiority of Green Glue remains etched.

Their sealant (which I was not going to buy at first) is also top notch. It is SO easy to work with, and the way it settles is just amazing.

I visited Eric 4-5 years ago. He showed me the old small piece with GG on it.
It was still fluid, and sticky as hell.

It is an amazing product.
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