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Green Glue alternatives
Old 2nd May 2014
  #31
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Yannick,

I understand the curiosity about additional testing - however I doubt if we'll ever see it......... the first reason being that the folks who got all of this going are no longer associated with the product - and they were the driving force behind the testing that was performed.........

I am sure if it weren't for them testing would never have been done to the extent that it was..... and I don't know of any testing that has been done since the company was sold........

BUT (big but here) - I think it isn't all that difficult to extrapolate from those tests to draw some fairly decent conclusions........

It's actually pretty exciting to hear about your visit with Eric - that time line put's it still in it's original state 9 years after application........ I would think that if it remained in that state for 9 years (having been opened up and exposed to air at least 5 times now that I am aware of) that we can safely assume that it will remain in that state for the life of a building if the walls are never opened up.

As far as the naysayers go........ I don't have a clue - perhaps it is because they feel it strengthens their position that alternate approaches work just as well...... although I do find it amusing that one would refer to the product as the equivalent of snake oil - and then present that you can take alternate materials that have never been tested and get the same results.........

In other words - their claims are that GG is snake oil but yet they'll suggest that a cheaper version of snake oil is going to help folks.......... untested snake oil at that......

As far as it's effect on a wall's resonance - Brian Ravnaas mentioned that to me on a few occasions during the testing process......... I found interesting the extent that it will damp a wall even before the next layer of drywall is installed.........

Rod
Old 3rd May 2014
  #32
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Wait a second, are you saying he applied the GG to the first layer on the wall, and not the backside of the uninstalled second layer?
Old 3rd May 2014
  #33
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Yannick's Avatar
 

No, I did just 7% of the second layer of the ceiling (with greenglue inside), which had a dramatic impact on the walls !
Old 3rd May 2014
  #34
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Rod, I understand about some needing to have testing specific for the application however in the real world that often isn't the case. It's not uncommon for a Doctor to prescribe a certain drug for certain applications it was not specifically tested for. It's called "off label usage" and is in widespread use. They understand that it may be an acceptable or better substitute for a drug that was specifically tested for that application. The same thing happens in most other fields. The OP's question was fairly clear about asking for substitutes which I provided. If you are aware of other properties at work other than a non-curring product that acts as a dampner please share them. I don't regard construction assemblies as some dark art. In fact I really appreciate your often common sense approach typically found with guys who get their hands dirty (I'd like to think I'm in that club too).

The only direct complaint I gave about Green Glue was it's high price considering it is just basically Latex (quite a number of other Latex products are in the $3 a tube price range). In the early days when he was just a start up with small batch orders from his supplier that was understandable however now with his distribution and volume it certainly seems to be a very high price for what it is.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #35
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Rod, I understand about some needing to have testing specific for the application however in the real world that often isn't the case. It's not uncommon for a Doctor to prescribe a certain drug for certain applications it was not specifically tested for.
Using your analogy to the medical world, Rod is one of the most pre-eminent doctors.

A student of greatness,
Andre
Old 3rd May 2014
  #36
Kind of a crazy thought, but what if one used acoustic underlayment between drywall layers? Of course as a substitute to green glue. I only ask because I just used it for it's original purpose and it made such a huge difference in the transmission reduction of shoe and heel noise on an upstairs floor. Just a random thought here though. Rod? Thoughts?
Old 3rd May 2014
  #37
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Acoustic underlayments are great for footfall noise because of the benefit they grant from the perspective of impact isolation... however airborne transmissions are a different story......

The only real benefit they seem to add from that perspective is the value of the mass....... and from a mass perspective they become very expensive........

A company called IsoStore had some testing done using solid rubber underlayments to determine their effectiveness from the perspective of helping isolate airborne transmissions.......

Tests were performed using a 6" concrete base/4" concrete cover - these with 2" of rubber - 1" of rubber & 3/8" rubber between.....

2" rubber assembly = STC 72

1" Rubber assembly = STC 69

3/8" rubber assembly = STC 54

Thin rubber is not offering a whole lot here......... however I would also caution that I would not expect to see the same results when it came to wall assemblies where part of the equation has you penetrating the isolation level and creating a short circuit that bypasses the underlayment.........

I will point out that I do not see any tests there for these products used as a part of a wall assembly - and (as such) the conclusion I reach is strictly based in logic........

Rod
Old 3rd May 2014
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
The OP's question was fairly clear about asking for substitutes which I provided.
The OP can speak for himself as to what he meant when he posted this - however I am a literalist when it comes to my responses - and I always assume the OP actually said what they meant........

This is what he said:

Quote:
and I am looking for something that will offer some of the damping properties of Green Glue.
OK - we know what the damping properties of Green Glue are - this because we have data to refer to that is specific in nature.....

We know the same about QuietGlue.......

We have no idea whatsoever as to the damping properties of Polyisobutylene when it's used in this manner - we do know that it does not remain in a liquid state - so we do know that it does not possess the damping property of GG from that perspective.......

So I go looking to see what I might find to answer that question and I find nothing whatsoever............

Now I don't know about you - but if I can't find test data - and I can't find a manufacturer who recommends this use for their own product, and I know (seeing as this isn't medicine) they aren't shying away from marketing it for that use because they have the authorities looking over their shoulders making sure that they only market it for the purpose that their tests were based upon, and I also know that in the marketplace, if a product works for some particular use - that any company in their right mind would try to find a place in that market to expand total sales......... wooops - that tuned out a bit more long winded than I intended when I began - so where was I?....... oh yeah - if I know all of that - then I also know that I can't (in good conscience) suggest to anyone that they should use that product in lieu of a known tested product.

Quote:
If you are aware of other properties at work other than a non-curring product that acts as a dampner please share them. I don't regard construction assemblies as some dark art. In fact I really appreciate your often common sense approach typically found with guys who get their hands dirty (I'd like to think I'm in that club too).
I don't consider it a dark art either - in fact I view it as just the opposite........

However you are not doing the same it appears......

My position is that if a thing cannot be proven to the degree that it does (or doesn't) work for any specific purpose - then it should not be assumed that it does (indeed) work for that purpose...... this regardless of what one might imagine in that regard.

It is no more valid for you to compare the effectiveness of this product to green glue - than it would be for me to suggest that frosting made by "___________" (fill in the blank with the manufacturer/flavor of your favorite frosting here) would do the same job........

Now I know for a fact that you cannot prove that cake frosting won't get the job done - this because even as illogical as it might seem - it has never been tested to prove it doesn't work - and therefor who knows - it might.......

Now - I of course don't believe that for an instance - and I'm quite certain you don't either - however it has never been proven - and, using the logic you were using when you said:

Quote:
This has been debated here in the forums before but I've never seen any proof that "Butyl" is not equal in performance to Green Glue.
Are we then to assume that seeing as it has never been proven that frosting isn't equal in performance to Green Glue that (by extension) it is?

Quote:
The only direct complaint I gave about Green Glue was it's high price considering it is just basically Latex (quite a number of other Latex products are in the $3 a tube price range). In the early days when he was just a start up with small batch orders from his supplier that was understandable however now with his distribution and volume it certainly seems to be a very high price for what it is.
First off - there are a whole slew of latex polymers - and you have no idea what the chemical composition of that product is (neither do I for that matter - this even after searching to see if I could document the exact chemical composition) - so you have no idea what the cost of the process is........

Beyond that - you refer to "he" - well in the beginning there were a few different "he"'s involved in this - and the collective "he" sold the company to very large company........

As far as the cost of the product on the open market goes - it's value is exactly whatever the market will bear - and not a penny more than that...... and any company would be chaired by fools if they were selling it for a penny less than that.

Companies are all about profit....... as well they should be - and if they were selling it at a price point that the market place considered "too high" they would either lower their prices - or they would go out of business.......

Anyway - nice sparring with you..........

Have a great rest of your day,

Rod

Actually it is not just basically latex - this regardless of the fact that it is a latex based product..........
Old 4th May 2014
  #39
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I am the OP and Rod gets it. The question wasn't what does green glue do or is it worth it? The question was that I simply couldn't source either GG or Quiet glue in New Zealand. Turns out Quiet glue was what we used in the Post facility I was involved in speccing in Glasgow and where it was installed correctly it was amazing. Dolby theatre banging out 100 plus db and load of bottom and other spaces working next door or nearby recording foley or vo's. Ok Quiet glue was only part of the story but my conclusion was that it was significant. The designers also specced other produccts for sealing first layer of drywall to studs along with staggered corners and other sealing and caulking. I was curious and David Bell from Whitemark (build hundred sof mix theatres and studios) demosntrated by banging on a wall that had been correctly done next to one that had no glue and it was significant. Profound even.
Where our build suffered was that due to a whole load of politics with our landlord - the council the build used metal studs which proved to be next to useless after about 5 years esp around doors.
I have taken the plunge even though I am on an insanely tight budget - 10k USD to build a 20sqm post room. Will report back. I have had to o for 1.5 tubes per sheet because the 24 I have ordered are costing me nearly 1000USD inc shipping - and I have no idea how much more for import duty
Old 4th May 2014
  #40
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Rod ... just a personal THANK-YOU for your patient, EXPERT views on this and related topics.

As to GreenGlue ... never heard of a proper substitute [except additional layers of 5/8 drywall. For my Control Room, I went dual layer 5/8" drywall using GreenGlue between sheets.

The results are nothing short of amazing ... even from the first few days. It is mentioned that there is a 'setting' period of about a month for the GG. I'm not qualified to explain what happens during 'that' time .... but it was well worth the wait !!

I had to balance the cost, labor, and additional structural integrity [particularly the ceiling] of a 3rd drywall layer ... or GreenGlue. Since I was part of the 'labor force' [mostly to oversee how each piece was being installed ... I was MORE than happy to purchase the GreenGlue !

I particularly enjoyed the look on the drywall guys' faces when I was applying the GG
When some of the 'crew' return to see and hear their work ... they too were stunned with the results. The dubbed it, The Room of Silence'

Again ... all respect Rod.
Old 4th May 2014
  #41
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Yannick's Avatar
 

I do not know if gg is overpriced, I have no clue about production costs.

I was able to treat my 40m2 ceiling with two layers of gg, for about 650 euro.
That is about 8 euro/m2.
Which as building prices go, is still not a high cost IMO.

The - sometimes almost futile - underlayments in "normal" building construction tend to be almost as expensive, eg.

Floating my 40m2 floor with Sylomer set me back 3200 euro. Getzner first wanted me to use a mat, full coverage, of lighter density. Cost would have been 10K+ ...

It is my understanding Sylomer is related to PUR. I hear nobody complaining about the price differential.

As always, you get what you pay for, and I am extremely happy with what I got !
Old 4th May 2014
  #42
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
It is mentioned that there is a 'setting' period of about a month for the GG. I'm not qualified to explain what happens during 'that' time .... but it was well worth the wait !!
drywall absorbs water...... and this is (after all) a water based product.

There is a certain amount of time it takes for this to happen (the amount of time depending on exactly how porous the particular drywall is as well as the relative humidity in the location the product was used) - but when it's finished it leaves behind the product that actually does the job intended..

I recall this as being discussed as we went through the review process.

Rod
Old 4th May 2014
  #43
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So your answer is NO, you are not aware of other properties at work other than a non-curring product that acts as a dampner. I get it you and others prefer to use a tested for the application product. I'm not trying to participate in a holy war here but part of a good forum is discusion of all sides of an issue.

I have no idea why "Butyls" are not tested/marketed for this application. An educated guess would be it's not on their radar or that the market is so small that it's not worth the test costs. Butyls being a synthetic rubber also burn so being used as part of a commerical wall assembly which often carry fire ratings could mean additional tests and liability just for that from their persective.

The road to better acoustics is paved with trial and error experiments and the only reason there is Green Glue today is from one of them. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss other non-curing products that act as dampners as future common products used in acoustics construction assemblies.
Old 4th May 2014
  #44
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Bassmankr,

I have no problem with theoretical discussions - but presenting any product (that has never been tested) as equivalent to a product that has, just doesn't stand.... there is no equivalency unless there is something to back it up.......

Perhaps you are right and the market is not large enough to interest them - on the other hand perhaps they had those products tested (sales for a product they are already manufacturing would pay for testing in a short period of time) and they didn't work well enough to compete in the marketplace.........

Either case is a possibility............

The road to acoustic information of any REAL value is paved with testing...........

Rod
Old 4th May 2014
  #45
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I'm fine labling this as a "theoretical discussion". The expansion of knowledge and experimentation is the basis of every good engineer I've ever known (and not just in the field of recording).
Old 4th May 2014
  #46
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

I agree 100% - but a presentation of equivalency should only (then) occur after a finding of proof - not speculation........

Not that there is anything wrong with speculation - simply that is should be clearly presented as such......

At least then the people viewing have the option to take whatever chance they wish - perhaps failing in reaching their goal in the process - yet we can say they walked into it with eyes wide open (or at least should have based on the information presented.)

Rod
Old 4th May 2014
  #47
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My 2 cents.

Do I believe that there is absolutely no other product out there that will do the same job? - of course not.
Am I prepared to sacrifice time and money finding out - possibly the hard way? - Of course not.
Its a no brainer to go and source a product that the general consensus it that works. If any one here want to risk their build and studio performance to find out if something else (cheaper or otherwise) does the same job then awesome.We will all benifit from your gamble.
I'm a post/film/music mixer not an engineer so I let you get on with it but will report back with how happy or not I am with my new room
Old 8th May 2014
  #48
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Hi Again

things progressing v well. Glue has arrived from OZ. One thing I am not sure of is what insulation should go in the wall. I think what is spec'd in schedule of works is pink batts - fluffy batts. Is this adequate or should I try and change for more rigid rockwool board?

Cheers
Chris
Old 8th May 2014
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
Hi Again

things progressing v well. Glue has arrived from OZ. One thing I am not sure of is what insulation should go in the wall. I think what is spec'd in schedule of works is pink batts - fluffy batts. Is this adequate or should I try and change for more rigid rockwool board?

Cheers
Chris
No rigid board.
Old 8th May 2014
  #50
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Hi Rod, thanks for the data earlier.
I only have experience with the polyurathane that went in on my personal studio. After 3 years had to vacate. I was impressed with the tackiness of the polyurathane. We had to destroy most materials and dispose.

I have no doubt GG is a far supior product and well worth it for the permanent installtion.

As the OP has stuck with GG

All interesting data.
Old 8th May 2014
  #51
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Sourced some rigid board from another studio build. Its only 50mm. But I think I may combine with fluff batts
Old 8th May 2014
  #52
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In my experience, it is perfectly possible to couple a massive wall assembly to a second wall by using rigid fiberglass, or even overstuffing fluffy fiberglass.

In lighter constructions, I think filling 50-60% of the cavity is also sufficient.
Old 12th May 2014
  #53
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In general, cavity infill insulation should not be too dense or the cavity too full. The "right" amount works very well but there is a law of diminishing returns at work - doubling the infill thickness or density does not double performance (only cost).

If the cavity is anywhere from say 60% full of "light'n'fluffy" (or let's say 10-15kg/m^3 Glasswool) then that is about the best dB per $, but up to 105% is ok as well. Thinner batts at higher density may work just as well but would be more expensive.

For example, see P. 17 of IR-766, National Research Council of Canada. Also, p. 99.
Old 13th May 2014
  #54
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I am going with 50mm dense board with 50mm bat really to help hold it all in place. Will touch inner layer but so lightly that I can't see issue there
Inner skin starts today. Greenglue and next sheets tomorrow
Old 13th May 2014
  #55
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reminder ...

backer rod and caulk.... each layer. Give chaulking a chance to set ... you may be surprised how gravity can pull on what looked like a good seal.

just relaying from actual experience.
Old 14th May 2014
  #56
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nzl62 View Post
If any one here want to risk their build and studio performance to find out if something else (cheaper or otherwise) does the same job then awesome.We will all benifit from your gamble.
Actually it's physically impossible for someone to use untested products in their build and report back as to any physical benefit they received from a product used for this purpose.....

This is not speculation on my part - it is a fact......

You can see the benefit of any particular part of an assembly via comparison to other assemblies (minus any particular piece of the original assembly) when it comes to lab tests - this because the assemblies are constructed to the highest degree of accuracy under tightly controlled conditions, or at least to the limits of the limits of the lab..... by which I mean that if the TL limits at some particular frequency at the lab in question happened to be 70dB - and your level of isolation exceeded 70dB at that frequency - then they would not be able to certify the higher level of isolation (although they might post an assumed value based on extrapolation.

But - we all understand that the moment you build outside of the test lab the values are not going to be the same... there will be other factors involved that will change things - flanking paths for example - possibly errors in construction - modified screw patterns - variations in the spacing of framing - variations in the lumber species - or (even with the same species/grade of lumber) variances in the bending strength of the various structural members.... penetrations through the assemblies for the purposes of electrical & low voltage wiring/HVAC/etc.

All of this changes the game.........

So our entire isolation system design is based on the ability to accurately compare starting points......... after which we understand that in all cases the losses outside of the panels systems themselves will end up the same.

This allows us to design a system that meets the clients needs.......

On the other hand - "Jack" builds a studio - and puts on 2 layers of drywall with something he read he would work between the layers just like GG. The "something" in question (of course) was never tested for that purpose.

Good old Jack read this thread before doing so - and afterwards he comes back to post for you good folks about his success and explain to us that I am wrong - the product worked just as well....

And unfortunately I (and a whole host of people along with me who understand the real world application of such things) would have to explain to him that his observations have little value..... they are in fact an opinion of his - nothing more - nothing less....... and although opinions might guide one to do a test if they thought there was value - they do not prove a thing has value...... they are simply opinions..........

Rod
Old 20th May 2014
  #57
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Update

Iso shell complete. Impossible to tell if this is better than product X but it certainly makes a difference in with and without terms. The two inner sheets are solid!
Acoustic treatments not in so you get a bit of verb boom but can barely feel banging of fists outside. So combo of GG and staggered stud seems to have created something hopefully will work very well for me.
Bang for buck? Hard to tell. I have paid a premium here for this. I suspect that a third sheet layer would have been cheaper under my circumstances.
Would I do it again? Certainly but I'd add a sheet of drywall and go to a 6x2 plate and stud layup. Couldn't here due to size constraints
Old 20th May 2014
  #58
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good to hear about progress !!!

What you describe is what many of us 'first-time' users faced I think.

But when I reconsidered what all was involved with a 3rd interior layer across all walls and ceiling .... not just the drywall, but all the additional round of caulking, sealing, the labor ... and last but not least ... structural concern. Not that we built to the 'edge' ... but I did think about all that mass above :|

For my Control Room, the cost actually balanced out almost the same, maybe a bit more ... but I was also able to actually use the product firsthand. After all the work ... I'm glad we went the GG route.

Hey ... keep us posted on your build. Those that have gone before can certainly appreciate the effort, and wish you the very best !
Old 29th December 2014
  #59
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I found this product locally and thought it was pretty interesting. Not sure if it is a direct substitute but have had good luck with it as a sealer. In the data sheets they give specs about sound abosorbtion, and sheer, like Green Glue does.

Tremco Commercial Sealants and Waterproofing
Old 29th December 2014
  #60
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Rod Gervais's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motoxxx View Post
I found this product locally and thought it was pretty interesting. Not sure if it is a direct substitute but have had good luck with it as a sealer. In the data sheets they give specs about sound abosorbtion, and sheer, like Green Glue does.

Tremco Commercial Sealants and Waterproofing
This is nothing like Green Glue...... it is simply caulk.

When shear is referred to when examining Green Glue that is in relation to it's ability (because it remains in a liquid state and does not "cure") to shear while releasing energy in the form of heat.

When this company is referring to shear in their literature it is in relation to their products ability to resist shear forces due to movement in a building's structure; this due to building movement under wind/seismic loads or differing expansion coefficients between various building materials used in construction.

Tremco makes excellent sealants....... I specify their products quite a bit on my projects....... but none of those products are Green Glue substitutes...

Rod
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