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Carpet vs Hardwood DAMP room
Old 17th October 2013
  #1
Gear Addict
Carpet vs Hardwood DAMP room

According to Room EQ Wizard, my room is killing all highs. Clearly, this is a major problem that needs to be addressed.

I am looking for advice to fix a room that is too damp. Currently, I am debating removing all the carpet and putting in hard wood/laminate floors with some area rugs. Does anyone think this is a viable option, or have any other ideas? Apparently my lows (100hz) and down are also showing heavy distortion. Not sure why, just what I was told on the Room EQ forums.

John M, owner of Room EQ Wizard said this, so i figured i'd post it here:

"The room does appear to be very heavily damped, though stripping out the carpet may not be the best solution. Try the Home Audio Acoustics forum for tips on treatment changes, it may be that using different facing materials on some of your bass traps could restore a little life.

Distortion levels rise rapidly below 100 Hz or so, to quite high levels, should check there is no clipping happening along the signal path anywhere. Is low frequency boost being applied?"

I figured that guys like Glenn, Ethan, Tinyy, or all of you are really the best people to offer help, so i'd ask !

Here is the MDAT file if you need to take a better look. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...16%20Test.mdat

RESPONSE CURVE BELOW IN MY NEXT POST
Attached Thumbnails
Carpet vs Hardwood DAMP room-room-sketch.jpg  
Old 17th October 2013
  #2
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Something does not seem right with the measurements. Left and right should match up better and room measurements generally do not look like this. Use the following video to check to see if you have it all set up correctly.
Room EQ Wizard Tutorial - GIK Acoustics
Attached Thumbnails
Carpet vs Hardwood DAMP room-goofy.png  
Old 17th October 2013
  #3
Lives for gear
 
boggy's Avatar
1. Disable "soundcard calibration" file, and measure again without it, if you like to read/look true measurements.
2. You need to solve your bass response first, but we can talk about that when your measurements become meaningful.
3. For bringing back some livelines in already (too) "dead" room, you need at least binary diffusers over your absorptive treatment:
DIY Binary Amplitude Diffuser anyone?
4. For flooring, I use only hard wood parquet (ash, oak .... or bamboo if there is not much money), and never laminate floor, and without ANY carpet too...

This is usually a way to improve mix translation in already problematic small room

From your "sketch", I hardly can conclude that your room can become "heavily damped", and your measurements are wrong because you use your actual room response as "sound card calibration file"...


(Question from attached picture: I don't know why John PM still insist so much to "calibrate" sound card [with sometimes boring program info "pop-ups"], if this option only may be interesting to loudspeaker designers... and not applicable to home DIY acoustic amateurs "quests" for sure, especially when people doesn't really understand what this "calibration" means. Wrongly measured and applied "soundcard calibration" become counterproductive [as here]. This is my honest (humble) opinion )


Attached Thumbnails
Carpet vs Hardwood DAMP room-mikeeyb.jpg  
Old 18th October 2013
  #4
Gear Addict
Okay, so I just re did the test with correct calibration and came up with this. Seems pretty scary bad !

Glenn or any others, can you help me make this out and see what I can do? You helped me with building the FRK OC-703 bass traps, but are those front parts hurting in my specific room?

Are oak/bamboo floors the way to go to livein up the room? What about that horrible dip at 100 or bump at 200ish? I am going to spend every dollar it takes to make this room better, and unfortunately my mixes have been translating poorly because of it!

Thanks
Attached Thumbnails
Carpet vs Hardwood DAMP room-correct-graph.jpg  
Old 18th October 2013
  #5
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
1. Disable "soundcard calibration" file, and measure again without it, if you like to read/look true measurements.
2. You need to solve your bass response first, but we can talk about that when your measurements become meaningful.
3. For bringing back some livelines in already (too) "dead" room, you need at least binary diffusers over your absorptive treatment:
DIY Binary Amplitude Diffuser anyone?
4. For flooring, I use only hard wood parquet (ash, oak .... or bamboo if there is not much money), and never laminate floor, and without ANY carpet too...

This is usually a way to improve mix translation in already problematic small room

From your "sketch", I hardly can conclude that your room can become "heavily damped", and your measurements are wrong because you use your actual room response as "sound card calibration file"...


(Question from attached picture: I don't know why John PM still insist so much to "calibrate" sound card [with sometimes boring program info "pop-ups"], if this option only may be interesting to loudspeaker designers... and not applicable to home DIY acoustic amateurs "quests" for sure, especially when people doesn't really understand what this "calibration" means. Wrongly measured and applied "soundcard calibration" become counterproductive [as here]. This is my honest (humble) opinion )


Thank you for all the fantastic advice, I am going to really look into that right now and see. Do you think (from the new correct graph) that new flooring would be a big help? Do you have any other suggestions?

What freq's would a wood floor typically change? I dont want the room to because shrill sounding, but if I could liven it up that would really be FANTASTIC. Overall, I want a really balanced nice sounding room obviously, so any ideas would definitely point me in the right direction!
Old 18th October 2013
  #6
Lives for gear
 
boggy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeeyb View Post
Thank you for all the fantastic advice, I am going to really look into that right now and see. Do you think (from the new correct graph) that new flooring would be a big help? Do you have any other suggestions?

What freq's would a wood floor typically change? I dont want the room to because shrill sounding, but if I could liven it up that would really be FANTASTIC. Overall, I want a really balanced nice sounding room obviously, so any ideas would definitely point me in the right direction!
You still have LF problems with your walls/ceiling. Try to solve dip with better loudspeaker/listener position.
Look here: Speaker placement methods

If this don't help you need to add more bass trap panels.
Old 18th October 2013
  #7
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
You still have LF problems with your walls/ceiling. Try to solve dip with better loudspeaker/listener position.
Look here: Speaker placement methods

If this don't help you need to add more bass trap panels.
Isn't my bass already completely lacking? I understand bass traps serve to tame low frequencies, but if there isn't much left to tame, how would more traps help?
Old 18th October 2013
  #8
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boggy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeeyb View Post
Isn't my bass already completely lacking? I understand bass traps serve to tame low frequencies, but if there isn't much left to tame, how would more traps help?
They serve to absorb reflections from walls which will cancel otherwise (as now) your low end at certain frequencies, because they are out of phase at listening point. So if you like to have "more bass", you need to absorb their reflections from walls, more precisely... looks as absurdity but isn't, really.


Old 18th October 2013
  #9
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
They serve to absorb reflections from walls which will cancel otherwise (as now) your low end at certain frequencies, because they are out of phase at listening point. So if you like to have "more bass", you need to absorb their reflections from walls, more precisely... looks as absurdity but isn't, really.


Lol I wonder how people learn this stuff in the first place! Alright, so bass traps and reposition my room/seating to see if I can get something better.. But how will I know when it is actually better? Will everything just be less dramatic and closer to 65 db?

Also, is my room actually really damp in the high end, or was someone wrong in telling me that? If hard wood will help I will add it, but if not then I wont
Old 18th October 2013
  #10
Lives for gear
 
boggy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeeyb View Post
Lol I wonder how people learn this stuff in the first place!
In a hard way, usually...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeeyb View Post
Alright, so bass traps and reposition my room/seating to see if I can get something better.. But how will I know when it is actually better? Will everything just be less dramatic and closer to 65 db?
You need to solve your dip at low frequencies, and not to get any new one.... in other words you need to get "more bass" at listening place, more even frequency response below 200Hz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeeyb View Post
Also, is my room actually really damp in the high end, or was someone wrong in telling me that? If hard wood will help I will add it, but if not then I wont
You need binary diffusers over your old (and new too) bass traps, as I said above. Your floor need to remain hard and reflective because you also need good mix translation (psychoacoustically) and not only flat frequency response. Humans doesn't hear sounds as Fast Fourier Transform... brain is more complicated...



Old 18th October 2013
  #11
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by boggy View Post
In a hard way, usually...

You need to solve your dip at low frequencies, and not to get any new one.... in other words you need to get "more bass" at listening place, more even frequency response below 200Hz

You need binary diffusers over your old (and new too) bass traps, as I said above. Your floor need to remain hard and reflective because you also need good mix translation (psychoacoustically) and not only flat frequency response. Humans doesn't hear sounds as Fast Fourier Transform... brain is more complicated...



Great. Thanks Boggie ! I will get on all this right now. First reposition room, then try to add diffusers/bass traps and lastly to get rid of my carpet and add hard wood floors.
Old 18th October 2013
  #12
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Glenn or any others, can you help me make this out and see what I can do? You helped me with building the FRK OC-703 bass traps, but are those front parts hurting in my specific room?
Can you post the REW file for that one?

Before you rip up the carpet you may want to lay down sheets of plywood to see how it tests. For the most part the same as laying down hardwoods.
Old 19th October 2013
  #13
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
Can you post the REW file for that one?

Before you rip up the carpet you may want to lay down sheets of plywood to see how it tests. For the most part the same as laying down hardwoods.
Glenn, here is the REW file for this one! I look forward to hearing back from the expert himself on what is really going on/my best course of action.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3253461/Glenn.mdat
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