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Need help with My Live Room Dynamics Plugins
Old 12th September 2011
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Need help with My Live Room

Hi Guys! Here are pics of my Live room and I need some help with acoustics. Well this room is bare. I need this room to sound good on the instruments mentioned below so I need help on acoustics placement.

Here is the details of my live room:

Dimensions: 19ft (L) X 11.4 (w) x 7.6 (h) room is a rectangle
Room type: Live room, tracking room
Instruments: Drumset, Bass guitar, Acoustic guitar, Electric guitar
Wall material: Drywall(gypsum board)

Heres my idea:

Corners: 2x4 ft Bass traps on all 4 corners,
Frontwall: 2pcs 6" thick bass traps, (No need for diffusers???)
Ceiling: 5x5 ft 4" thick clouds 4 gap" on top of drum set(drum set placed on rear corner), 8x8 ft cloud 2" thick 2 gap" on top of electric guitar, bass guitar, acoustic guitar
Side1 wall: 3 pcs 2x4 ft Bass traps, 6 pcs N13 qrd diffusers
Side2 wall: 3 pcs 2x4 ft bass traps, (No need for diffusers???)
Rearwall: 2pcs 6" thick bass traps, 2 pcs 2x4 ft N13 QRD diffuser

I need your input on this one guys... Pls feel free to give comments and suggestions. Thanks :D


-Chris
Attached Thumbnails
Need help with My Live Room-dsc_0876.jpg   Need help with My Live Room-dsc_0877.jpg   Need help with My Live Room-dsc_0878.jpg  
Old 13th September 2011
  #2
Gear Maniac
 

helo! any 1 here? :D
Old 13th September 2011
  #3
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soulfield's Avatar
 

Chris,

Congrats on getting all that Gyp up.

I know how much work it is to hang and finish that much 5/8's. I'm in your same position and am starting to plan my treatments.

Before someone else says it see if you can mock up a very simple diagram of what you intend to do and where.

In my initial planning I came to realize that I may not always want my kit in one place, gtr amps in another place, ect. Have you tried playing anything in the room yet to see how the kit sounds in one place vs anothe? Amps one place vs another. Even untreated trying this will tell you alot. Try even an acoustic and walk around playing diff styles.

My room is only a little larger so there will certainly be places where it makes sense to put the kit, amps, ect. but youd hate to hang a cloud for the kit only to find out the room sounds better with the kit on the opposite side.

Just a thought, and my $0.01

I look forward to the responses of the usual suspects on this one!
Old 14th September 2011
  #4
jrp
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I am in your situation as well. The room is just finished, put the windows in yesterday. 4 Tons of gypsum....

Well, i guess you want to have a balanced responce like in a conroll room, but with more "room feel" to it.
Since its a recording room you can feel free to model anything you like. So much room for experiments.
I would (and will) start with the corner traps and some ceiling treatment since that will be propably necessary and do measurements at different places. Play sweeps from the places you like to set up the instruments.
Then move some more mineral wool around and see how things change. Find out how much you need.
Do test recordings of amps or drums. Listen carfully on the changes when move absorbers.
Once it gets decent in the Bass range cover the traps with slats if it sounds too dead.
All this will keep us buisy for many days i am sure.
It´ll be fun!
I have read the advice around here several times now not to start thinking about diffusors as long as there is no bass trapping.
Old 14th September 2011
  #5
jrp
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oh, also check the drums at another place than the corner. Record with an omni in the room and overheads. Tell us or post how sound changes.
Personally i plan on installing only the necessary and have movable absorbers/diffusors/reflectors.
Old 14th September 2011
  #6
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flexible treatments will be a good consideration as well as the general trapping in the corners. consider using your floor tom in various spots around the room to see if there is a particular spot it sounds best. then consider using that location as a starting point for testing the entire kit. then build up the necessary treatments around there - diffusers, small absorbers etc. consider building a drum platform and amp platforms to decouple from the floor.
Old 14th September 2011
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Congrats on getting all that Gyp up
thanks soulfield! wow! your studio is looking great!
Quote:
I know how much work it is to hang and finish that much 5/8's
yeah even ceiling is coverd in and out.
impressive eyes there, you can tell its 5/8 rather than 1/2!
I will be posting a simple diagram soon :D

Quote:
I am in your situation as well. The room is just finished, put the windows in yesterday. 4 Tons of gypsum...
wow! that sounds alot!

Quote:
flexible treatments will be a good consideration
yeah all my stuff is moveable.

Great input guys! yeah i designed my acousic treatment to be moveable. My clouds are even bolt on's and most of my stuff will be moveable 2x4 panels and diffusers so that i will be free to experiment on the placements.

For the diffusers, what would you guys recommend? Slats, space couplers or QRD diffusers?
Old 14th September 2011
  #8
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soulfield's Avatar
 

Chris / JRP

Just a lucky guess on the 5/8"heh

Glad to know we are all at a similar point and since I know Chris's and my LR are about the same size lets keep the "think tank" going. Diagrams, pics, and sketches from all of us would be great for the GS community!

I'm focused on the basic treatments (RFZ) of my CR right now (hoping to pick up my 703 from Glenn GIK this friday) since all I have up is the wall ceiling soffitts, but the live room will be right behind that.

I know that with a rather small live room like mine I will need a great deal of trapping, but real estate is at a premium so this will take some planning.

Clearly several broadband absorbers 2 x 4 (703) @ 4" on walls and ceilings

Maybe a large superchunk in the corner of the short wall in the pic above. I'm thinking 4-5 foot face and floor to ceiling.

Other corners are very close proximity to doors and windows so while I plan superchunks they will be very small +/- 20" face and @ obtuse angles to save space around the door while keepin a decent sixe face.

I'm not even thinking diffusion yet!

Any how, I didn't mean to hi-jack this. I only want to spur this thread along since there are a few of us with similar sized rooms planning the first round of treatmeants at the same time.



I'll try and get a diagram of my live room up tomorrow!
Old 15th September 2011
  #9
Gear Maniac
 

wow! love your track lights! Is the color of your room studio grey?
Whats the gear in your rack? :D
Old 15th September 2011
  #10
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soulfield's Avatar
 

Chris,

The Live room walls are a green "mother nature." The Control room walls are "tiger stripe" and the CR and LR ceiling is "outback." These are all BEHR panit and colors.

The tracks are just simple (and cheap heh) GU10 halogens by Hampton Bay. I think I paid about $40 bucks a pop for the 4' track and three fixtures. I will say that the 50w GU10 bulbs that come with the package are a little much so I'm slowly switching over to 35w halogens. The best part of all is the live room lights are all dimmed by a Staco 510 Variac. They dim "quitely" to barley glowing filiments. Not a cheap dimmer but my strat dosent pick up any buzz unless you place the PU's within about 6" of the unit. I had a thread on the install of the variac if you search for "any electrical engineers" it should come up

I'm going to work on a diagram of the first round of treatments over the weekend and will get it up ASAP!

Happy planning chaps!
Old 15th September 2011
  #11
jrp
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Very Nice!
I am in a similar situation, starting to treat a newly built live room.
From the experiance i got setting up my controll room i know that the only way to decide when placing traps is to place them and measure.
You can throw the whole packs of rockwool around and see what corner reacts how on the treatment. There were places in my room that i thought would need treatment but they didn´t. And the opposite of that. Also the thicknes necessary is easy to measure once the placement is decidet.

What is left to wonder is how a live room should sound (and measure) anyhow.
For a controll room there are standards, i can measure and compare to those standards and decide what to do.
But no standard for a live room (luckily).
How should we attack this task?
Old 15th September 2011
  #12
jrp
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Quote:
Other corners are very close proximity to doors and windows so while I plan superchunks they will be very small +/- 20" face and @ obtuse angles to save space around the door while keepin a decent sixe face.
For me it was clear that i had to trap my doors. One is a reflection point and the other is in the corner at a big hotspot.
It sure looks buky now, but as long as it works...
Old 18th September 2011
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

nice!
Quote:
Not a cheap dimmer but my strat dosent pick up any buzz
I didnt know there are issues with dimmers.. my dimmers are just the standard 3 gang 500 watt dimmers.. Should these create problems? Yes, pls do post diagrams

Quote:
But no standard for a live room (luckily).
How should we attack this task?
Well I also have that kind of a problem, but Im thinking of making it live with diffusers minus the flutter echoes :D
Old 19th September 2011
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_Nicks View Post
nice!
I didnt know there are issues with dimmers.. my dimmers are just the standard 3 gang 500 watt dimmers.. Should these create problems? Yes, pls do post diagrams



Well I also have that kind of a problem, but Im thinking of making it live with diffusers minus the flutter echoes :D

Some seem not to have problems regular dimmers. My understanding is that regular dimmers actually shut to lights on and off very quickly rather than actually changing the voltage going to the lamps. Some single coil pickups and even mics i believe can "hear" this on/off cycle resulting is a buzz. I've also heard that this on/off cycle can create a freq that other electronics pick up, even if they are on a separate circuit. You may be fine with the traditional but if you have not installed them yet you may consider the VARIAC route.

LED's would have been best for energyand heat output but the cost is huge!


As fo rthe diagram. I am phasing my treatments and have the end goal of keeping the live room, well "live" to a degree. So here is my first phase. Basically just one large chunk and alot of broadband absorbers. Not trying to make a dead room, just tone down the "room" a little. I'm going to have a kit in here over the next 2 weeks and will work through where drums sound good and where to plan the cloud.



What do you guys think?
Old 20th September 2011
  #15
Lives for gear
it's a guess on my part but i'd think you are way undercooked with bass trapping.
Old 21st September 2011
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

can you indicate where instruments will be placed? not really sure bout going broadband. It may make the room sound dead. :D
Old 5th November 2011
  #17
Gear Maniac
 

Guys! here is my room! Glen or any1, can you please help me with acoustic design/treatment? :D
Attached Thumbnails
Need help with My Live Room-chris-nicks_liveroom1.jpg   Need help with My Live Room-chris-nicks_liveroom2.jpg   Need help with My Live Room-chris-nicks_liveroom3.jpg   Need help with My Live Room-chris-nicks_liveroom4.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: zip Chris Nicks_liveroom.zip (5.65 MB, 31 views)
Old 6th November 2011
  #18
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i would go with a mix of absorption and diffusion. i would use corner trapping with some slats over them. i would consider using a heavy curtain you can pull over the window if needed (private rehearsing, vox only session, etc) where you want to cut some of the window reflections. Consider decouple platforms under the drums and each amp as well.
Attached Thumbnails
Need help with My Live Room-chris-nicks-live-room-clean.jpg   Need help with My Live Room-chris-nicks-live-room-render-1.jpg   Need help with My Live Room-chris-nicks-live-room-render-2.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: skp Chris Nicks Live Room - Clean.skp (502.7 KB, 96 views)
Old 6th November 2011
  #19
Gear Maniac
 

wow. thanks Glen! I have a few questions. Typical approach would be to use full absorption on the ceilings. Despite my low ceilings, why did you choose to put diffusion rather than absorption?
Old 7th November 2011
  #20
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because its a live room. so making it dead would be counter productive. that said, shoot the room to see what you need to do to get something like a balanced response with a decay rate favorable to the instrument/vox being recorded. sometimes reversible treatments or just spot treatments will do it.
Old 7th November 2011
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

sorry i didnt explain clearly, what I meant was you could have gone with full absorption on the ceilings then diffusers on the walls. I dont think this approach would make it dead. What Im also concerned about diffusion on the low ceiling. Ive heard there is an (effective) minimum distance the qrd diffuser should be from the listener. In this case, the artist. Wouldnt this be a problem since the ceiling is almost a foot away from listener?
Old 8th November 2011
  #22
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maybe i'm mistaken as to room height. i thought the room was 8' high... and yes, in general about 3x the lowest wavelength handled by a numeric diffuser is a decent starting point. so if the diffuser targets 1.2Khz, then about 3' would easily be ok, and closer should not really be a problem. that said, scattered porous absorption (say 2'x2'x4" squares separated by 2'6" or so - a loose checkerboard pattern) will be diffusive plus more effective than simply blanketing the ceiling. you could also make a MLS sequence of 4"d x 9"w x 8'l span the ceiling with 9" gaps (or as dictated by the 1 in the sequence) if you wanted a pseudo-random pattern. you see that used on the end walls.
Old 8th November 2011
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

its 8' from the outside but its 7'6" from the inside because of the floated flooring. Now regarding the treatments:
1. im assuming the diffusers are at scale. Did you purposely make them finless for less absorption?
2. From the looks of it, the polys are not sealed right? so no need stuffing insulation?
3. About the clouds I noticed they dont have gaps from the ceiling. Should I give 4" gap from the ceiling?
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