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can someone please verify this? Dynamics Plugins
Old 12th September 2011
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

can someone please verify this?

I'm putting up a new studio shed, and I'm trying to figure out how best to soundproof the walls.

I've found this site which has very easy to understand details on how to soundproof my space:

DIY Domestic Wall Soundproofing

The first question... are these instructions good to go for a fairly low budget backyard shed? I wonder, with windows and steel door, is any of this overkill? I was already planning on doing RC and two layers of sheetrock, two different sizes (1/2" and 3/8") but this seems to add a couple more layers.

Does adding the "mineral wool/acoustic quilt" make that much of a difference?

How about what they are calling the "t60 membrane?"

I have no preconceived notions, I'd appreciate any advice you would care to share.

BTW, for reference, my windows will be "insulated double pane glass" "Low E." No further specs at this point, I believe they are millguard. I'm not planning on recording drums at all hours of the night, I would like to be able to record vocals at any time day or night and acoustic and/or direct instruments (no amps). So, just to be sure... if I build exactly as the site above shows, would that be overkill with the standard steel door and windows as described?

Again.. thank you in advance for your advice.
Old 12th September 2011
  #2
Lives for gear
it's hard to know without knowing how loud the sound sources are you want to keep out.

for eg, if your shed was in a rural area with no loud sound sources (good outcome) then your building will have different requirements to if you shed was beside a freeway or an airport.

really the only way to know for sure is to buy a cheap spl meter and take some measurements. then you can figure out how much noise you have and how much isolation you need. then you can work out what you need to do for isolation and what the cost is and whether it's worth it.

then you need to look at how close your neighbours and whether your noise will cause them loss of amenity. and again how much isolation do they need

with your doors and windows, yes there is no point spending loads of money on wall/roof construction is your doors and walls let all of the sound in. at the end of the day it's a system that you need.

personally when i see hybrid systems i start to wonder. i've done many buildings over the years that needed isolation and to be honest i've never used or had an acoustic engineer spec a hybrid system. but it usually comes down to dollars and the system that gets the best results for the least amount of money usually gets the gong.
Old 12th September 2011
  #3
Gear Guru
Biggie

It is very difficult to achieve decent soundproofing. It needs airtightness. If one actually achieved this we would suffocate....
DD
Old 13th September 2011
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks for the response... what do you mean by "hybrid?"

I'm just looking for a cross section of a wall that would be a good price/performance compromise... so open to other input of course! I've searched until I'm blue in the face and it doesn't get any clearer.

For example.. everywhere I read that air space is your friend and that putting insulation in the walls can actually be worse for soundproofing. Yet the site I linked to included insulation in the walls. Aarrgh.

Well, I guess if it was clear there would just be one way to do it that everyone agrees with!
Old 13th September 2011
  #5
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AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

I'm not the acoustician here (of which there are many), but i do know that when it come to soundproofing; you're only as good as the weakest link.

Example, if you put in the best possible solution for the floor/walls/ceiling, but your door/window isn't very good.. the whole build is as good as aforementioned door/window.
Old 13th September 2011
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
I'm not the acoustician here (of which there are many), but i do know that when it come to soundproofing; you're only as good as the weakest link.

Example, if you put in the best possible solution for the floor/walls/ceiling, but your door/window isn't very good.. the whole build is as good as aforementioned door/window.
I get that... that is actually the thing I'm trying so hard to get at. With a normal exterior door and quality double pane windows... what would be overkill to do to the walls? That is the question!
Old 13th September 2011
  #7
Lives for gear
hi, when i said hybrid i meant systems that have multiple layers of differnt thin layered products in between,

maybe just adding another layer of plasterboard is cheaper and easier, certainly more traditonal way to go. but, maybe it would cost more than the system you're looking at, you need to compare.

putting insulation in your airspace typically is a good thing to do. depends on the detail of the wall in the end but to increase insulation you need either bigger air space or more mass or both, adding insulation damps the resonance of the wall which improves it's isolation qualities.

reality is though........ do you need it? what's your noise issues????? maybe you can just build a shed and treat it with acoustic treatments and move on???

before anyone can suggest a wall outcome they would need to know your situation. why build an isolating wall if you don't need to
Old 13th September 2011
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gouge View Post
before anyone can suggest a wall outcome they would need to know your situation. why build an isolating wall if you don't need to
Good question... I do think I need it, but not just to prevent sound going out, but to prevent sound coming in. I record a lot of acoustic instruments and vocals. I'd prefer not to carve up my small space with a booth.

I will be spending time and money on treatment once I get it built.

I will rehearse with a band in that space, but with v-drums so we keep the volume reasonable. I have neighbors around 30 feet away (suburbs), so I do think I need some level of isolation.

Thanks again...
Old 13th September 2011
  #9
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chezballs View Post

For example.. everywhere I read that air space is your friend and that putting insulation in the walls can actually be worse for soundproofing. Yet the site I linked to included insulation in the walls. Aarrgh.
Where on earth did you read that putting insulation in the walls can be worse...?

Putting fibrous insulation is very beneficial (such as Rockwool, Glasswool, etc). Putting rigid insulation such as expanded polystyrene foam is bad.
Old 13th September 2011
  #10
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AwwDeOhh's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chezballs View Post
I get that... that is actually the thing I'm trying so hard to get at. With a normal exterior door and quality double pane windows... what would be overkill to do to the walls? That is the question!
Well, the way i see it;
You can try and find out what the STC rating of both the door and the window, and build your walls out to be approximately the same stc. (that way you don't 'overbuild' and be let down because the window/door are the weak points). You could build the walls to a higher stc, and if/when you have time/money/need can replace the door and/or window to be closer to what you built the walls at. (or you may find that the door/window already has a high stc, i dunno)
Keep in mind, even if the door has a high rating, that installing it incorrectly can defeat the purpose. There needs to be a tight seal.
Old 14th September 2011
  #11
jrp
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jrp's Avatar
 

maybe there is some way for you to test what the existing situation is.
Just a Level comparison inside outside with a sweep.
Maybe even guiding you to your weakest link right now.
Old 14th September 2011
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
maybe there is some way for you to test what the existing situation is.
Just a Level comparison inside outside with a sweep.
Maybe even guiding you to your weakest link right now.
Problem is it's all new construction! But thanks for the idea... it's just not built yet.
Old 14th September 2011
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AwwDeOhh View Post
You could build the walls to a higher stc, and if/when you have time/money/need can replace the door and/or window to be closer to what you built the walls at. (or you may find that the door/window already has a high stc, i dunno)
That's kinda smart... Good idea. Thank you.
Old 14th September 2011
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebg View Post
Putting fibrous insulation is very beneficial (such as Rockwool, Glasswool, etc).
Got it, that might be where my confusion lies. Does it make a big difference what that fibrous insulation is? Does the cheap stuff work as well?
Old 14th September 2011
  #15
jrp
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jrp's Avatar
 

it did for me, but i cannot tell if more expensive would have been even better...
Old 14th September 2011
  #16
Gear Guru
Stud filling

Quote:
Got it, that might be where my confusion lies. Does it make a big difference what that fibrous insulation is? Does the cheap stuff work as well?
Gypsum UK had a webpage which showed the results of tests using different densities and fill amounts in stud partitions.
Unfortunately the page is gone but the gist is simple:
Higher densities showed no improvement. A full fill did. Filled but not compressed. So the cheap light stuff, advertised for the job as Acoustic Blanket etc. works fine. Just fill the gap fully, but do not compress as this will cause a little LF conduction. You may need to support the fibre at vertical intervals to prevent it gradually sagging downwards. Take care to use a vapour check layer to prevent condensation within the actual fibre.
DD
Old 14th September 2011
  #17
Lives for gear
really it depends on how loud your band is and how loud the outside area is. you ideally want to try and achive 20-30db noise levels internally (20db being pro studio) with no one talking or playing and 30db noise levels for neighbours bedrooms and 35-45db for external quiet residential areas during the day.

you studio noise sources are roughly this

acoustic piano loud 85-100db
brass and wind instruments 85-115db
loud vocals 70-80db
mix down - 80-90db
guitar cranked - 110-120db
drums - 115db
acoustic guitar - 80db

your external noise sources are roughly this

lawn mower - 70db
traffic noise - 70-80db
very loud traffic - 90db
car horns 100db

etc, lots of info can be found online.

so for your internal noise levels, if your band was 100-110db then the wall/roof construction should achieve around 60-65db attenuation for your quiet daytime neighbourhood not wanting to complain too much.

and for your internal recording vocals you would need 50-60db attenuation if your only external noise source was a lawn mower for eg. more if you have traffic issues.......

now don't get me wrong, you will still hear the mower but it will be faint. also for night time playing you should try and achieve about 5db more attenuation.

the other issue is bass frequencies. an Rw or stc rating of a wall doesn't really tell you if it performs highly at lower frequencies. it's these lower frequencioes where studio spend so much money on isolation. you really need to look at the wall data to understand what frequencies it works best at. but for your case, without drums, it;s easier.

probably brick veneer is your most cost effective way to go..... probably.... have a look at page 92 in this pdf. http://www.gyprock.com.au/downloads/..._2007_62e5.pdf
csr is australian however lafarge for example will have similar acoustic manuals. in the csr manual you can see what adding insulation to a wall does. you can also see the Rw value of the wall on the far right. fo eg. an Rw value of 60 means effectivly STC for arguments sake. not exactly the same but close enough.

if you have a look through the entire manula you will see many different forms of wall/roof makeups and what they achieve.

insulation companies also do the same. but as an example, brick veneer construction with 2 layers of 13mm fyrchek, 90mm insulation, wall width of 266mm gives you close to 65db of attenuation or there abouts with the csr system.

with windows and doors, double glazed windows and solid core doors provide around 35-45db of attenuation. if you contact the window/door manufacturer they can give you specifics as well as construction details to achieve this. if they can't then they are not the people to be buying from. putting 2 windows and 2 doors in your wall side by side will improve you level of attenuation. and as the gap gets bigger between them so does the level of attenuation.

i forgot to add, this is all dependant on your construction methods achieving an airtight room...... ie. no sound leakage...... you can also look for a product called green glue to put between your internal linings that will imprvoe your bass frequency attenuation sightly. the green glue wbsite also has examples of wall/roof makeups

as it is a "system you are trying to achieve you need to follow the manufacturers instructions..... ie. local manufacturer of products you can source.
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