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Monitoring position question Analog Processors (HW)
Old 3rd September 2011
  #1
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Monitoring position question

I can't help but have to set up desk slightly off centre. the monitors will fire down the length of the room(toed in).

I have read that it can be advantageous to be slightly off centre. Is there a specific ratio?



Monitoring position question-room-set-up.gif
Old 3rd September 2011
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
6th_World's Avatar
Try to keep things symetrical as more you can! Why can't you put the table in the middle?
Old 3rd September 2011
  #3
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Doorway...and I ain't moving it.
Old 3rd September 2011
  #4
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Starlight's Avatar
This feels like the game 20 questions. Can you not face the opposite end of the room to get symmetry? Maybe it would be easier to help if there were dimensions and things like doors and windows in your diagram.
Old 4th September 2011
  #5
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ritelec's Avatar
 

Ill take what's on wall number 2 for 30 points Bob. heh



Do we see bed????

Shoe me bed..........ding ding ding ding ding.......heh
Old 4th September 2011
  #6
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fcuk me. I could knock up a 100 diagrams it ain't going to change ****. This is what I have got to work with. You either have an actual answer to my question or you don't...............................




















?
Old 4th September 2011
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

How bout moving on the rear part of the room?
Old 4th September 2011
  #8
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I do not have that option.....my original question?
Old 4th September 2011
  #9
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
You either have an actual answer to my question or you don't...............................

?
Acoustics/Treatment Reference Guide - LOOK HERE!

Old 4th September 2011
  #10
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SörenHjalmarsson's Avatar
 

Thiele,

If you can't change anything about your set-up, why not just make music and be happy? What does it matter if it's right or wrong if you can't do anything about it?

The short answer to your question is that you want the front part of your room (especially) to be as symmetric as possible. Your fear regarding that was confirmed at the beginning of this thread...

If you REALLY want to know how your room looks, measure it! This will not only reveale any potential problems (and possible solutions) it will also, hopefully, short-circuit the process of 'learning your room'...


MVH
Old 4th September 2011
  #11
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SörenHjalmarsson View Post
If you REALLY want to know how your room looks, measure it! This will not only reveale any potential problems (and possible solutions) it will also, hopefully, short-circuit the process of 'learning your room'...
+1
Old 10th September 2011
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Eklund View Post
+1
-2 tutt

I am not making any music. heh

Anyway the link posted earlier led me in the right direction

Extract from here

"AVOIDING NULLS
In all rectangular rooms the bass response is most lacking at the halfway points - halfway between the front and rear walls, halfway between the left and right sides, and halfway between the floor and ceiling. Therefore, the worst place to sit is exactly halfway back in the room, with your ears halfway between the floor and ceiling, or halfway between the left and right walls. You shouldn't put loudspeakers in those places either. Loudspeaker tweeters should be at ear level, but you should raise or lower them a few inches if needed to avoid having the woofer exactly halfway between the floor and ceiling. Likewise, while left-right symmetry is important for proper imaging, you could optionally offset your listening position a few inches to either side to avoid being exactly halfway between the left and right side walls
."

A few inches is fine. A couple of control rooms I have been in have been offset a by few inches too. Quite a common practice apparently. Well by acoustician's anyway. Looks like some of you haven't caught up yet
Old 10th September 2011
  #13
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And for the higher freq's you use a movable unit that reflects the sound symetricly to your head, but lets the low's through.
Old 10th September 2011
  #14
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
-2 tutt

I am not making any music. heh

Anyway the link posted earlier led me in the right direction

Extract from here

...

A few inches is fine. A couple of control rooms I have been in have been offset a by few inches too. Quite a common practice apparently. Well by acoustician's anyway. Looks like some of you haven't caught up yet
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/6725528-post8.html
eigenmodes calculator

heh
Old 11th September 2011
  #15
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SörenHjalmarsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
-2 tutt

I am not making any music. heh
Thiele,

First of all... if you want help, YOU need to provide the information that we need in order to help you (we can't guess).

Secondly... Whether you are making music or not is irrelevant, you are aiming for a critical listening environment, or you wouldn't be asking the questions you've been asking...

Thirdly... If you disagree with the fact that taking waterfall plots and ETC measurements is a good idea, i don't know how you were planning to achieve a critical listening environment...

Fourthly... If you aren't prepared to change anything about your room, i don't know how you were planning to achieve a critical listening environment...

We give you the facts (your welcome by the way) and we don't sugar code them. Either you ignore that information, or you learn from it - your choise...

The information you have provided us with is weak, that's not our fault! Your place/set-up isn't up to standard at this moment, that's not our fault! If you don't want help, why ask for it? If you aren't going to listen to advice and learn from people who might know a bit more than you, why start a thread?

This is turning into a "i wont listen to anything that doesn't suit me" kind of thread, a bit trollish if you ask me... We are actually trying to help you here Thiele, don't be ungrateful.

This is my last contribution to your thread and then i'll leave you in peace :

Speaker Placement in Room Center or Not?
[Home Control Room] !advice needed! (Pictures, Measurement included;)


Sincerely
Sören
Old 11th September 2011
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SörenHjalmarsson View Post
Thiele,

First of all... if you want help, YOU need to provide the information that we need in order to help you (we can't guess).

Secondly... Whether you are making music or not is irrelevant, you are aiming for a critical listening environment, or you wouldn't be asking the questions you've been asking...

Thirdly... If you disagree with the fact that taking waterfall plots and ETC measurements is a good idea, i don't know how you were planning to achieve a critical listening environment...

Fourthly... If you aren't prepared to change anything about your room, i don't know how you were planning to achieve a critical listening environment...

We give you the facts (your welcome by the way) and we don't sugar code them. Either you ignore that information, or you learn from it - your choise...

The information you have provided us with is weak, that's not our fault! Your place/set-up isn't up to standard at this moment, that's not our fault! If you don't want help, why ask for it? If you aren't going to listen to advice and learn from people who might know a bit more than you, why start a thread?

This is turning into a "i wont listen to anything that doesn't suit me" kind of thread, a bit trollish if you ask me... We are actually trying to help you here Thiele, don't be ungrateful.

This is my last contribution to your thread and then i'll leave you in peace :

Speaker Placement in Room Center or Not?
[Home Control Room] !advice needed! (Pictures, Measurement included;)


Sincerely
Sören
Finally a post which has some content (well a link) to some information that actually is related to my original question. Thank you
Old 11th September 2011
  #17
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SörenHjalmarsson's Avatar
 

Your are welcome Thiele.



Sincerely
Sören
Old 11th September 2011
  #18
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
I have only had one glass of wine, but I am trying to work out WTF your post is about in relation to my original post??!?
The first post explains that unless your walls are completely (or close to completely) rigid and there’s no openings (doors, windows etc.), any modal prediction is likely to fail. If rigid walls and no openings, modal calculators can be very accurate as seen in this example:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/5763532-post17.html

The second thread discusses how to use assymetrical positioning to avoid modal nulls and peaks assuming the inner shell is made symmetrical.
Old 12th September 2011
  #19
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tun - I'm with you mate, and was pleased to see you post what I was thinking as I read through the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ritelec View Post
I learned much from it.
Me too - but mostly how rude and obnoxious some folk are.
Old 12th September 2011
  #20
+3000

if asking free advice from very worldly members, it's best to be courteous and respectful. There's a great deal to be said for the concept of "tone" of a message. Aggressive manners will only receive contempt from most (quite rightly) and I'd be extremely grateful that there are those members who are willing to overlook such short-fallings and give good advice none-the-less.


I'm not a member-quite-so-worldly, however, I would put a great deal of emphasis (trapping across the spectrum) on the first reflection points - these will be different on both sides, so be wary of that.

Best of luck with your ventures.
Old 12th September 2011
  #21
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
I can't help but have to set up desk slightly off centre. the monitors will fire down the length of the room(toed in).

I have read that it can be advantageous to be slightly off centre. Is there a specific ratio?



Attachment 251856

For those that can't read heh

I am fully aware of the limitations of modal models and the general slant towards chucking loads of rockwool at the corners etc ala Gearlsutz/Realtraps blah blah.

My question was very specific and I went to a huge amount of trouble providing a diagram.

Several recording studios and mastering houses I have been in have a slight offset. My question was trying to ascertain if there was actually any guide line, rather like Ethans 38% rule which of course theorizes a particular placement of the listener in relation to the length of the room.

Apparently some of the most knowledgeable people on the planet are here?


I am not asking for advice on moving my room around. Hopefully that is clear now. So no one here knows fair enough
Old 12th September 2011
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
cborg's Avatar
 

The answer is 42.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
I have read that it can be advantageous to be slightly off centre.
What are you referring to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
rather like Ethans 38% rule
Ethan has no such rule that I know of.

In fact there is no rule.
Old 13th September 2011
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cborg View Post
Ethan has no such rule that I know of.

In fact there is no rule.

I can quote from his Realtraps site if you like?

Go have a look for your self. I will wait
Old 13th September 2011
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
cborg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
I can quote from his Realtraps site if you like?

Go have a look for your self. I will wait
Well then, let me edit that line:
Ethan has such a rule.
Old 13th September 2011
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cborg View Post
Well then, let me edit that line:
Ethan has such a rule.

So cborg...........you signal or noise in this thread?
Old 13th September 2011
  #26
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Starlight's Avatar
Ethan unhelpfully calls it the 38% rule on his web site. He accredits this rule to its creator, acoustics guru Wes Lachot. The page How to set up a room - look down the bottom of the green sidebar for Wes' explanation.

It has been mentioned many times on Gearslutz that it is a helpful starting position to finding the sweet spot for listening, where neither peak nor null affect what you are listening to. It is usual to find the sweet spot somewhere near this position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
You either have an actual answer to my question or you don't.
And the question was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
I have read that it can be advantageous to be slightly off centre. Is there a specific ratio?
The answer is no.

I suspect that folk here are used to being helpful and wanted to say more than simply, "No," and so questions were asked because your diagram lacks useful information, such as dimensions.

There is not a specific ratio. You need to find the sweet spot by moving your microphone incrementally, taking measurements at each spot, until you get readings that inform you of the place of least affected sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
I went to a huge amount of trouble providing a diagram.
Thanks for the laugh!
Old 13th September 2011
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
I suspect that folk here are used to being helpful and wanted to say more than simply, "No," and so questions were asked because your diagram lacks useful information, such as dimensions.
A ratio could be represented as a percentage. So why do you need to know the dimensions?
Old 13th September 2011
  #28
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Jens Eklund's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiele View Post
So no one here knows fair enough
Am I being unclear or do you simply ignore what I’m trying to tell you?
Old 13th September 2011
  #29
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I'm calling it......................TROLL!!!
Old 13th September 2011
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demor View Post
I'm calling it......................TROLL!!!
Says the troll.

Did you have an answer for the actual question I put forward?
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