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New studio need help with soundproofing Utility Software
Old 1st September 2011
  #1
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jackinthebox's Avatar
 

New studio need help with soundproofing

I am about to move into a new building to build a studio which i will have as my main workspace for the next ten years.
The location is great, right in the middle of shoreditch, london UK and the building itself is finished to a high standard.

I have a few questions ( well more than a few actually it's amazing how many variables there are and differences of opinion on the subjects of acoustics and soundproofing!)

The studio will be situated in the basement with a ceiling height of around 3 metres, with concrete lintels lowering the ceiling height in places.

I have decided against a floating floor as there is nothing below and the concrete floor is in contact with the earth below and therefore massive and damped enough to not resonate. I will be decoupling the live room floor a certain amount but it won't be a fully floated slab or anything. I have a load of 1m square recycled granulated rubber slabs and a layer of profiled neoprene sheet to essentially float the live room floor but i am still unsure of the best possible way to approach the whole thing yet. I will also retain as much ceiling height as possible.

My first question is regarding the soundproofed walls which will be the perimeter of my room within a room construction.
The outer walls of the empty room are currently plasterboard on at least two sides. ( i guess i will have to drill some investigatory holes to make sure of the construction. I am hoping there is brick or concrete between me and the neighbours.( i believe there are offices to the rear of the buliding so the back wall, which will be one side of my live room and the back wall of my control room is the wall that will need the most isolation).
Now if the wall is a plasterboard stud construction and i am building a double walled metal stud construction in front of it would this constitute a triple leaf?
I have attached a snapshot and sketchup file to make it more clear.

Would i need to insulate the outer wall with rockwool or would it be best to leave a simple air gap with no absorption?
I will be using this kind of construction for the inner walls, probably with a layer of bitumen impregnated softboard on the studs, then 19mm plasterboard plank with a 12.5mm soundboard layer on top of that. i'm hoping to get about 70db reduction but my worry is that the existing plasterboard walls of the building might cause problems. I have heard that a triple leaf design is worse than a double leaf.
So should i be making use of the existing plasterboard wall as part of one of the leaves or leave an air gap between my internal structure and the outside wall?
Also the lafarge construction technique involves 200mm of quite low density (10kgm3) acoustic quilt instead of the higher density stuff i have used in the past. I guess this i because the mass is provided by the the layers of sheet material and the lower density quilt is more effective at lower frequencies.
I could well be wrong. I have been trying to make sense of all the different aspects of soundproofing but i still have a few question marks!

Can anyone help point me in the right direction to achieve the greatest isolation with the minimum of building required. I am quite prepared to use a number of layers of different materials, use resiient bars if necessary and seal and damp every possible problem spot with acoustic sealant but i don't want to go ahead and order materials if i am missing some important point or i'm uncertain as to what the outcome might be.

I know there is always the option of adding more layers to the inside of the studio and adding sufficient treatment and absorption to the inside of the live room to control the leakage but i'd like to get maximum isolation initially.

I would love to hire a professional acoustic architect but i will building the place myself and i really don't have the budget for one.

Thanks in a advance for any advice or tips.

jack

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Old 2nd September 2011
  #2
Gear Nut
 

Yeah you may want to drill and figure out exactly what the existing walls are before deciding what'll be needed, or if you can, the building office may just have a set of as-built drawings you can look at.

Another consideration is talking to your new neighbors, bringing in some big speakers to your existing space, blasting them at what you might consider recording level, then walk into your neighbors offices/rooms to see exactly how much attenuation is needed. Grab a Radioshack SPL meter and make notes of each room's dBA and dBC range with and without speakers on in your room. Basically a poor man's version of an ASTC test to figure out exactly what transmission loss the wall offers, but it's a start.
Old 3rd September 2011
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohanto View Post
Yeah you may want to drill and figure out exactly what the existing walls are before deciding what'll be needed, or if you can, the building office may just have a set of as-built drawings you can look at.

Another consideration is talking to your new neighbors, bringing in some big speakers to your existing space, blasting them at what you might consider recording level, then walk into your neighbors offices/rooms to see exactly how much attenuation is needed. Grab a Radioshack SPL meter and make notes of each room's dBA and dBC range with and without speakers on in your room. Basically a poor man's version of an ASTC test to figure out exactly what transmission loss the wall offers, but it's a start.
Good idea. I did think of that actually. Do you think just music would suffice? I was thinking of taking my laptop with fuzzmeasure down there and testing with pink noise or white noise, or sweeps perhaps. To get an idea of any problem frequencies first inside my room and then next door and upstairs to get some real world idea of the attenuation that the existing structure is providing. Then to make some investigative holes to see what's is between me and the neighbours already.
I'm still confused by this triple wall construction thing. I wonder is there a certain distance of seperation between the outer wall and the inner room within a room which becomes acceptable. So if the air gap is of sufficient width does the system stop acting as a triple leaf?
Old 3rd September 2011
  #4
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jhbrandt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthebox View Post
....I have a few questions ( well more than a few actually it's amazing how many variables there are and differences of opinion on the subjects of acoustics and soundproofing!)
Yes, there are many opinions available.. but a professional will only give you the facts backed up by testing results - ie; Data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthebox View Post
...My first question is regarding the soundproofed walls which will be the perimeter of my room within a room construction.
The outer walls of the empty room are currently plasterboard on at least two sides. ( i guess i will have to drill some investigatory holes to make sure of the construction. I am hoping there is brick or concrete between me and the neighbours.( i believe there are offices to the rear of the buliding so the back wall, which will be one side of my live room and the back wall of my control room is the wall that will need the most isolation).
Now if the wall is a plasterboard stud construction and i am building a double walled metal stud construction in front of it would this constitute a triple leaf?
Yes it would. you must remove the existing plasterboard. The rear of the control room will probably not need near as much isolation as the tracking room... Maximum 'normal' levels will average 90 decibels in the control room, but the Tracking room could be home to 110 decibels of Rock drums.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthebox View Post
Would i need to insulate the outer wall with rockwool or would it be best to leave a simple air gap with no absorption?
Absorption in the wall cavity will improve the sound transmission loss by around 3db.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthebox View Post
I will be using this kind of construction for the inner walls, probably with a layer of bitumen impregnated softboard on the studs, then 19mm plasterboard plank with a 12.5mm soundboard layer on top of that. i'm hoping to get about 70db reduction but my worry is that the existing plasterboard walls of the building might cause problems. I have heard that a triple leaf design is worse than a double leaf.
Well, you're not going to get 70db sound reduction with that... have a look at ir761 - link on my publications page - and find the required STC rating and wall construction... if the existing walls are brick or concrete see ir586.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthebox View Post
So should i be making use of the existing plasterboard wall as part of one of the leaves or leave an air gap between my internal structure and the outside wall?
It all depends on how much isolation you want/need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthebox View Post
Also the lafarge construction technique involves 200mm of quite low density (10kgm3) acoustic quilt instead of the higher density stuff i have used in the past. I guess this i because the mass is provided by the the layers of sheet material and the lower density quilt is more effective at lower frequencies.
Use low density... regular building insulation fiberglass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthebox View Post
Can anyone help point me in the right direction to achieve the greatest isolation with the minimum of building required. I am quite prepared to use a number of layers of different materials, use resiient bars if necessary and seal and damp every possible problem spot with acoustic sealant but i don't want to go ahead and order materials if i am missing some important point or i'm uncertain as to what the outcome might be.
Sorry, no magic bullets there... you are up against physics..
You are always better off financially and isolation-wise using standard building materials. The cost of isolation usually follows a logarithmic curve as you go up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthebox View Post
I know there is always the option of adding more layers to the inside of the studio and adding sufficient treatment and absorption to the inside of the live room to control the leakage but i'd like to get maximum isolation initially.
You really should find out and know what you need... specify first.. then treat and you are done. No guessing. It will save you time, money, and grey hairs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackinthebox View Post
I would love to hire a professional acoustic architect but i will building the place myself and i really don't have the budget for one.
You might be surprised. Most professional studio designers will save you the cost of their fee... and like Andre's tag line... "Good studio building is 90% design and 10% construction."

Good luck!!
Cheers,
John
Old 4th September 2011
  #5
Lives for gear
hi jackinthebox

i'd reconsider the angled wall between the control room and the tracking room and just make it perpendicular to the end walls. then you could create the angled wall by use of acoustic treatment and storage cupboards. withjout knowing your access points, neigbours locations and uses etc it's hard to provide the best design outcome. it could potentially be cheaper to completely redesign the layout so that your noise sources are not located along side tencancies. whether this is possible or not really just needs to be explored. based only on your attachmentsi'd also consider doors and windows being moved around.

if you can provide more details on the surrounding tenancies and wall makeups it would be easier to find solutions. currently i don't see enough information to be able to work much out. also need to know air con locations and existing services.

you are going to need around 80db reduction between your tracking room and the tenancy next door. the chapest way to do this is to provide a bigger gap between he tenany wall and your new wall and most likely have some blockwork component to it. especially if the existing wall is lightweight. unless you can enter their tenancy and install an extra 3-4 layers of fc linings you are most likely going to end up with a 3 leaf setup to some degree. you could allow for a 600 wide plenum along the tenancy divide wall as one option. but then you loose space. there are also products called cinema walls that have high Rw values. up around 80... they are expensive. usually have 4 layers of fyrchek either side and an overall wall width of 500mm. if the tenancy or "party" wall is masonry, either block or brick, then it will be cheaper for you and you will be able to avoid a 3 leaf system.

your internal walls only need to be as good as you need them. you aren't risking complaints from your neighbours like you will with the party walls. using a double wall with 2 layers of 16mm fyrcheck and insulation in each leaf with an overal wall depth of 300mm approx gets you around 67-69 Rw, studs need to be timber and not metal.

but that's only the start, i'd use embleton type pads under all bottom plates, isolate top plates etc etc. for example a room within a room requires generally for the floor to be isolated and the internal walls to load onto that so you literally have a room within a room. if your walls or other elelments touch the structure at any point then there is a very high chance that the resonance will pass through the structural concrete and your entire system falls down. everthing in your studio will resonate.

it would be a costly exercise if you spent 10k and up on the fitout and then had complaints so acoustic advise for your setup is really important.

your space looks vey tastey though, plenty of head height, nicespace. looks like you've found a great spot and i'm sure it will really work well.
Old 5th September 2011
  #6
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[QUOTE=jhbrandt;6996116]Yes, there are many opinions available.. but a professional will only give you the facts backed up by testing results - ie; Data.

Data based on my current situation? Or theoretical data based on previous experience? I have been consulting for instance the BBC sound proofing specifications as well as the white papers by the board manufacturers, british gypsum and lafarge.

Yes it would. you must remove the existing plasterboard.


I'm not sure what is behind the existing plasterboard but assuming there is not a concrete wall there but merely the other skin of a stud wall should i uprate the outer skin, Insulate the cavity of that wall and build another skin on a seperate stud which would be the inside of my studio?

Absorption in the wall cavity will improve the sound transmission loss by around 3db.

Well, you're not going to get 70db sound reduction with that... have a look at ir761 - link on my publications page - and find the required STC rating and wall construction... if the existing walls are brick or concrete see ir586.


Two layers 15.9 mm type X gypsum
board, 38x89 mm wood studs 400 mm o/c,
90 mm glass fiber batts,
resilient channels 600 mm o/c,
two layers 15.9 mm type X gypsum board

56 - 59 db reduction

so this system recommends using resilient bars but the system i gave a link to uses a 200mm cavity, which would make a difference i would imagine. It also specifies 19mm plasterboard planks and 15mm soundboard which may have more mass than the type x gypsum in the ir761. I will also be adding two layers of bitumen impregnated soft board which has excellent damping properties and will add a considerable amount of mass to the structure. Do you think resilient bars are worth the effort? How much islotation do you actually get. Also are metal studs less likely to transmit vibration than their wooden counterparts? I know the metal stud won't change shape over time like wood can.


Did you look at the links in my original post. One of them is a page from lafarge's technical sheets which gives a reduction of 67 db using their double stud with a 200mm cavity.


It all depends on how much isolation you want/need.


70 db or more as i stated. As much as possible really within reason for this kind of structure. The BBC camden wall mentions a triple structure which gives 80 or 90 db reduction. But apparently a triple wall isn't good.

I'm now thinking that situating the live room further from the neighbours will be the best idea.

Use low density... regular building insulation fiberglass.

Ok. So the higher density stuff is better for higher frequency absorption when used as treatment inside the studio but the lower density is better for damping between layers of a structure.

Sorry, no magic bullets there... you are up against physics..
You are always better off financially and isolation-wise using standard building materials. The cost of isolation usually follows a logarithmic curve as you go up.


Does that mean resilient bars or green glue are a waste of money? I think resilient bars are fairly standard now as a building material.

You really should find out and know what you need... specify first.. then treat and you are done. No guessing. It will save you time, money, and grey hairs.


I need as much isolation as possible without building a block wall. Drums are loud and i need to be able to record a live band at around 100db without disturbing the neighbours. Absolute isolation probably won't be possible but i am guessing that an office's background noise level might be over 40db so the noise escaping from my studio would be masked and would not be a problem. Except perhaps for low bass which will not be masked and would therefore need more treatment and is obviously where the greatest energy lies and is the hardest area to keep under control.

You might be surprised. Most professional studio designers will save you the cost of their fee... and like Andre's tag line... "Good studio building is 90% design and 10% construction."

That is exactly why i am consulting as many sources as possible to get the design right before i start work.

And how much might your fee be? It would worry me a little bit employing someone 10,000 miles away to be honest. If you can't see the site yourself and make tests and collect data wouldn't you would shooting in the dark as much as anyone else?

thanks for all your advice

j
Old 5th September 2011
  #7
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i'd reconsider the angled wall between the control room and the tracking room and just make it perpendicular to the end walls. then you could create the angled wall by use of acoustic treatment and storage cupboards.

Is there some reason for a avoiding angled walls? I borrowed most of this design for a John L Sayers design but it i'm not completely sold on an angled wall.

withjout knowing your access points, neigbours locations and uses etc it's hard to provide the best design outcome. it could potentially be cheaper to completely redesign the layout so that your noise sources are not located along side tencancies. whether this is possible or not really just needs to be explored. based only on your attachmentsi'd also consider doors and windows being moved around.

jackinthebox studios labelled 2 by jackinthebox - Google 3D Warehouse

I've added an updated, better labelled sketchup file but i think you're right.
I need to reposition the live room so it's as far from the adjoining tenancies as possible.

if you can provide more details on the surrounding tenancies and wall makeups it would be easier to find solutions. currently i don't see enough information to be able to work much out. also need to know air con locations and existing services.

Air con is not installed but the air in and out will be up at street level at the end of the building where the stairs are in my sketch.

Services wise there are no toilets or water at the moment but i think there would be access to services in the corner where the live room currently is.
i need to investigate this further.

you are going to need around 80db reduction between your tracking room and the tenancy next door. the chapest way to do this is to provide a bigger gap between he tenany wall and your new wall and most likely have some blockwork component to it. especially if the existing wall is lightweight. unless you can enter their tenancy and install an extra 3-4 layers of fc linings you are most likely going to end up with a 3 leaf setup to some degree. you could allow for a 600 wide plenum along the tenancy divide wall as one option. but then you loose space. there are also products called cinema walls that have high Rw values. up around 80... they are expensive. usually have 4 layers of fyrchek either side and an overall wall width of 500mm. if the tenancy or "party" wall is masonry, either block or brick, then it will be cheaper for you and you will be able to avoid a 3 leaf system.

so is it the air gap in the party wall that would create a three leaf system?

i am hoping that there are blocks in there but i need to take over the lease before i can do too much investigation.

your internal walls only need to be as good as you need them. you aren't risking complaints from your neighbours like you will with the party walls. using a double wall with 2 layers of 16mm fyrcheck and insulation in each leaf with an overal wall depth of 300mm approx gets you around 67-69 Rw, studs need to be timber and not metal.

I'm happy to use timber studs. I've seen different opinions on this though.
I guess staggered timber studs would be best. I have heard that because the metal stud is lighter weight it is essentialy more resilient but i don't believe everything i read on the internet! There can be problems with wood changing shape over time but i guess lots of mastic bedding gets around this.

but that's only the start, i'd use embleton type pads under all bottom plates, isolate top plates etc etc. for example a room within a room requires generally for the floor to be isolated and the internal walls to load onto that so you literally have a room within a room. if your walls or other elelments touch the structure at any point then there is a very high chance that the resonance will pass through the structural concrete and your entire system falls down. everthing in your studio will resonate.

I have a whole lot of a very heavy rubber tile system which i will be using to float the floor. It is essentially a three inch thick metre square granulated rubber tile which a sort of chocolate bar profile topped with a layer of dimpled/profiled neoprene. I have used it with success in my current studio but i do not have that much information on how much it deforms under pressure. I think that using it as an entire surface it my not be under enough pressure to perform resiliently. I currently have this rubber layer, then two layers of chipboard topped with an inch of solid oak. It appears to work but it's hard to tell as the floor is on a massive foundation slab.
I wonder if it would work better cut into strips to essentially work as joists for the chipboard floor to sit on. I really need to do a deformation test on a piece to see how much pressure makes it change shape.
I would then build my walls onto the oak top layer, perhaps with the bottom stud plates on neoprene?

it would be a costly exercise if you spent 10k and up on the fitout and then had complaints so acoustic advise for your setup is really important.

I agree. I think moving the live room would be the best bet initially.

your space looks vey tastey though, plenty of head height, nicespace. looks like you've found a great spot and i'm sure it will really work well.[/QUOTE]

I am quite excited about it. I'm just waiting for some information from the vendor, who's decided to go on holiday for a month while their property is on the market. Brilliant.


thanks again for the advice.

much appreciated.
Old 5th September 2011
  #8
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angled wall in studio.

i suggested getting rid of it as it seems arbitrary, it kind of makes the studio assymetric.

timber studs versus metal studs.... the data i have at hand shows 90mm timber studs in a double wall makeup performing fairly well, better than 65mm rondo type metal studs to to be fair to the 2 systems the 65mm metal stud has thinner insulation.

why no blockwork? a triple leaf wall with 190mm core filled blockwork and 150mm cavity/studs plus 150mm insulation in cavity and 2 layers of board will get you up over 80db reduction according the the nrc. you'd need to look at wall/floor/ceiling details though. but this is where an acoustic engineer is what you need. they will sign off on the details.

i'm sure a competant acoustic engineer could sign off on a tripple leaf lightweight system.

i just noticed. is that a bedroom,,,,, is there natural light and ventilation? it's been a few years since i worked in london but i'd doubt that's legal. might want to call it a store room if any approvals are needed.

also if you locate existing services that will help you sort out your layouts.....

to be honest, i don't see any issues achieving what you want i your space.
Old 5th September 2011
  #9
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Studio Design/Consultation

Jack,

I do this all day every day. My clients are from all over the world, so if you need any references... FYI, Rod Gervais, Jeff Hedback, Wes Lachot, Dan Fitzgerald (only listing a few) also work remote/long distance.

Testing is done by you under our supervision as is the build.

A couple of notes; You do not need resilient bars, clips or any additional decoupling on an 'already decoupled' partition. Either the people promoting this simply don't know better or they are just trying to sell you 'stuff'.

The wall system you described...
- from ir761, page 350
Element Description:
1 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board
2 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board
3 90 mm wood studs at 610 mm on centre
4 90 mm of glass fibre insulation in cavity
5 25 mm gap filled with air
6 90 mm wood studs at 610 mm on centre
7 90 mm of glass fibre insulation in cavity
8 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board
9 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board

= STC69

is that what you are talking about?

You see, "If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong" - James Moir. Acoustics and Acoustic Isolation is truly counter-intuitive. The doc that told you that you can get 56 to 59 db reduction.. (it's meaningless anyway because it does not use a standard. ie; STC) so according to ir761, you obtain more for less. cool huh? I use it every day.

It looks like you've been browsing John L Sayers site with all your angled walls. That's fine, but I usually only use angled walls in much larger facilities. We are currently building a triple studio facility in Amsterdam and we use no angled walls except in one large booth. We needed the volume in the control rooms and good predetermined modal distribution - so rectangles won. - Even in our large NE room in Moscow, we use a rectangular enclosure.

Your sketchup gives me an idea of what you are going for, but I do see isolation issues and flanking issues. To obtain STC70 or better will require a substantial budget and caution when building. I would venture a guess that it may cost as much as £160 to £200 per square meter to build the appropriate isolation and treatment very likely more than that.

What's your budget?

Cheers,
John
Old 6th September 2011
  #10
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That's the kind of thing that lafarge specified as one of their building systems, but using 19mm plasterboard planks which are 2400 X 600mm (15kg/m2).
I really need to investigate the construction of the existing walls as that will make a lot of difference to the budget i think. If it is concrete or brick behind the plasterboard i will already be 40 or 50 db better off and that will mean a less complicated structure for me to build. I also need to make sure that their is nothing beneath the floor that might cause problems. Services or drains, that sort of thing.

If it is just a stud wall i will have to consider building a block wall along the outside of at least one side of my live room. The rear of the site which adjoins the neighbouring office.

I have very limited funds but i realise that to do it properly and not cut corners could cost a fair amount of money.

When i have the necessary information i will be able to get more of an idea of a budget, then perhaps we can do business.

I am currently reading Rod Gervais' book so it is slowly becoming more clear to me.
I have built a few studios before but there hasn't been such an issue with proximity to the neighbours.

Re the bedroom, where the steps come down into the lower ground floor there is a large light well with windows the whole length of the building so it should get a fair amount of light. I will take your advice however and perhaps not call it a bedroom when it comes to building regulations!




Thanks again for your advice.

Cheers

jack
Old 7th September 2011
  #11
Here for the gear
 

If you have a choice between wood and steel studs, go with steel. And since you're building with an existing structure, you can space them further apart. That will help too.

Keep it down in there!: STC: Comparing Apples to Apples
Old 7th September 2011
  #12
Lives for gear
can i ask why metal is better than timber?

cheers
Old 7th September 2011
  #13
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gouge View Post
can i ask why metal is better than timber?
Sure you can. heh

Avoiding you having to ask, metal studs provide less coupling of the gypsum boards to the floor and ceiling. Look through IR 761 and compare identical, except for metal/wood stud, constructions.

It is analysis like this of documents like IR 761 that professionals do to establish the sound basis their recommendations. The initial work by Brian Ravnaas was one of the first. Brian is one of the creators of Green Glue. As John Brandt has written, he references IR 761 regularly in his design development.

Analytically,
Andre
Old 7th September 2011
  #14
Gear Addict
 

I am curious to know whether it is better to have metal or timber studs when constructing double stud walls. It may be a moot point when building a room-within-a-room studio as often the ceiling is supported off the wall frames and light-gauge metal studs are not load bearing so can't be used anyway.

But in cases where the ceiling is resiliently suspended on spring hangers from the structure above then there is an opportunity to use non-load-bearing wall studs if there is any advantage.

I remember looking through IR761 and not finding enough data to compare double timber stud walls and double metal stud walls. Most of the double metal stud walls are braced with straps so not truly "double stud". The only two that aren't braced have a smaller cavity (145mm compared to 205mm) than the nominally equivalent timber stud wall, as well as having different cavity infill.

I take Andre's point about light-gauge metal studs having less coupling to the floor and ceiling. I think there is certainly merit to this, although for room-within-a-room, may not be so relevant.
Old 7th September 2011
  #15
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebg View Post

But in cases where the ceiling is resiliently suspended on spring hangers from the structure above then there is an opportunity to use non-load-bearing wall studs if there is any advantage.
In that situation there is no advantage to metal studs.

Like a good stud,
Andre
Old 7th September 2011
  #16
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ok thanks, it was the double wall room within a room that i was thinking of also. referencing both ir761 and local csr testing in some cases timber outperforms metal.
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