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Flooring question
Old 9th February 2015
  #181
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I wouldn't like Tile. Cold and harsh sounding. I have fake slate appearance laminate in a couple of rooms. Looks quite OK and doesn't have the cold vibe of tiles. But maybe you live in Arizona....?

Rod FYI also, check out a newish invention, Irish btw, aerodrums.com
I am having great fun with these at the moment. They sound and respond very differently to other VI's due to distinct L and R hand samples. Really good.
DD
I live in Florida so tile works temperature wise!

And I would have wood floor looking tiles where you'd have the "vibe" of wood but more durable.
Old 10th February 2015
  #182
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
The difference between concrete and glued down hardwood is so small, it is not worth mentioning.
Cheers,
John
So I take it that tile vs. concrete wold be very small as well eh?

SEA
Old 10th February 2015
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEA View Post
So I take it that tile vs. concrete wold be very small as well eh?

SEA

Probably so small (if any difference existed) that it would be close to impossible to see it in a room test......

Any difference between hard floor surfaces (placed on top of a concrete slab) is most probably due to the slight change in room dimensions in height rather than reflections/absorption coefficients of the surface itself.

Now - if you are talking about different surfaces placed over a resonant wood framed floor assembly - then that would be a horse of a different color. You could well have some huge differences between a stone/ceramic finish and some woods.

Rod
Old 10th February 2015
  #184
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jhbrandt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SEA View Post
So I take it that tile vs. concrete wold be very small as well eh?

SEA
yep!

Just to clarify some things:

Hard floors are desired in Recording AND Mix rooms because;

THAT is the way we hear things.. Cellos are played on a hard floor. Pianos are played on a hard floor. They will sound very different on a heavily carpeted floor and probably not to the liking of many. This is subjective, but the subjective preference of most is for the hard floor.

Here are some book references:
----
Hearing Music in Different Environments
"An important aspect of acoustic foldback, however, is the time that it takes to arrive back at the performers. Ideally it should arrive immediately, and some does via the floor and direct sound from the instrument. However, the majority will have to travel to a reflecting or diffusing surface and back to the performers. There is evidence to show that, in order to maintain good ensemble comfortably, the musicians should receive the sound from other musicians within about 20 ms of the sound being produced."

Non-environment rooms
"These rooms have speakers, which are flush mounted in a reflecting wall, and a reflecting floor. The rear wall is highly absorbent, as are the side walls and ceiling. The combined effect of these treatments is that sound from the loudspeakers is absorbed instead of being reflected so that only the direct sound is heard by the listener, except for a floor reflection. However, the presence of two reflecting surfaces does support some early reflections for sources away from the speakers. This means that the acoustic environment for people in the room, although dead, is not oppressively anechoic."
".....as the floor reflection has very little effect on the stereo image."

"Acoustics & Psychoacoustics" 4th ed - HOWARD ANGUS

---

"Consider, for example, the sound from a source that is reflected by the room surfaces as well as by various objects in the room. We are all walking on floors speaking but we seldom react to the sound reflected by the floor, neither for our own voice nor for the voice of the person we are having a conversation with.

On the other hand, we are immediately aware of the reverberation of a cavern or the echo of our footsteps caused by sound reflection from the facade of a building that we are walking by (provided that we are at sufficient distance from the wall).

Three reasons can immediately be thought of as a hypothesis for these effects: (1) The sound level difference between the original and the reflected sound must be sufficiently small, (2) the time difference between the arrival of the original and the reflected sound must be sufficiently large, and (3) the reflected sound must be in addition to the sound reflected by the floor that we usually hear. However, we are always subconsciously aware of the reflected sound as a part of the total sensory environment.

Most persons feel uncomfortable in their first meeting with the quiet and sound-absorptive environment of a fully anechoic chamber where there is little sound reflection even from below the listener."

"ACOUSTICS OF SMALL ROOMS" by MENDEL KLEINER, JIRI TICHY

----

And last but not least from "Recording Studio Design" by Philip Newell:

"At each stage of our design we therefore need, to consider its effect on the musicians as well as on the purely acoustical requirements. Anyhow, it seems to be very widely accepted that floor reflexions are in almost all cases desirable, and indeed most live performance spaces have hard floors, so let us begin the design of our large neutral room with the installation of a hard floor."


Cheers,
John
Old 10th February 2015
  #185
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
yep!

Just to clarify some things:

Hard floors are desired in Recording AND Mix rooms because;

THAT is the way we hear things.. Cellos are played on a hard floor. Pianos are played on a hard floor. They will sound very different on a heavily carpeted floor and probably not to the liking of many. This is subjective, but the subjective preference of most is for the hard floor.


Cheers,
John
Thanks John! Appreciate your insight.

As a concert trained pianist and percussionist who has performed in large orchestras, I reflect back to my days at Interlochen Arts Academy back in the 70's.

Orchestras ALWAYS performed on hard services, even concrete (mostly) in the outside orchestra shells.

Makes a lot of sense! You never see an orchestra perform on carpet (at least I never have).

Best,
SEA
Old 10th February 2015
  #186
Gear Guru
Classical

Great links there from John, but I think only a small amount of it applies to recording a single musician with headphones on. It boils down to this, are we working for ears or microphones?
Orchestral music has to be listened to at a distance to hear it all, and the microphones are often placed to simulate human hearing. The floor reflection will be just one small part of the room tone at that distance. A mic in front of a seated acoustic guitar player is another matter entirely. The floor reflection causes comb filtering at the typically mono mic, which is entirely unlike a pair of ears.
So, the microphone is the listener, thus directionality and psychoacoustics don't come into it. (Except for the players, except when they are wearing cans)
Practicality, shoe and chair noise, floor reflection, have almost always seen an area rug under any seated player in my recording experience.
Including quartets.

The one instrument which IMO suffers most from absorption underneath, but nearly always has is Drums.

I am not particularly advocating carpet in an absolute sense. It has become unpopular for real reasons. But given a low hard ceiling, unless sufficient treatment happens overhead, absorption on the floor is better than flutter echo. Carpet was standard in BBC studios in the past. With Anti-Carpet bass trapping overhead.

I don't think the difference between Tile and Concrete will be audible, certainly when the drum mat or area rug is used! But as one of the two largest surfaces in the room, the closest to microphones in many instances, I would rather stained ply, concrete, hard wood, in that diminishing order.

I have seen a sort of hard rubber floor with dimples used in offices, factories, and even a studio in Portland Oregon. There are other options also.

DD

Last edited by DanDan; 10th February 2015 at 10:02 PM..
Old 10th February 2015
  #187
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I am not particularly advocating carpet in an absolute sense. It has become unpopular for real reasons. But given a low hard ceiling, unless sufficient treatment happens overhead, absorption on the floor is better than flutter echo. Carpet was standard in BBC studios in the past. With Anti-Carpet bass trapping overhead.

DD
I have a typical home ceiling (8 ft or so) I'll definitely treat it.
I'll also have some large area rugs to help out (perhaps cover like 50% of the flooring)

I won't be miking drums. Everything is ITB samples and I'll be performing the drum parts via triggers using drum samples and a Roland V type drum kit.

Live acoustic guitars, yes... perhaps live solo instruments like sax, violins, etc. Electric guitars will probably go direct using my VG-99 for the most part. However, if there is an occasion of using a live amp, then I'll mic that of course.
Old 10th February 2015
  #188
Gear Guru
Detail

Ah the devilish details....

I would create an area with a thick and large area of cloud, say 8 inches thick and 6'x'6. This with or without a rug should be good for vocals. You may need vertical absorption panels to further diminish room tone if you want those very pure vocal tones to work with. This area will work very well for a particular acoustic guitar sound, clear, detailed. Do remember any ambience needed by the singer or musician can be easily added in the cans.

But Sax, like drums, will sound truly awful in such an area. Both need a lot of room tone. Although the source tone of neither will be influenced by HF differences of surfaces, the LF of the drums is extremely boundary dependent.
Violin also reacts to boundary returns and some types of recording really need a nice room tone.

So create a live area. Consider some curved and angled sheets of ply overhead. Alternate patches of that and absorption perhaps. Plenty of it.

DD
Old 10th February 2015
  #189
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
But Sax will sound truly awful in such an area. Both need a lot of room tone. Although the source tone of neither will be influenced by HF differences of surfaces.
DD
I have a large back yard where I could always run a a few mics out there! I live in Florida so you know it's nice most the year round!

But yeah... 99.9% of the time I'll be using samples, synths, vocals, and some live acoustic guitar.

If need be I can always use the near by auditorium with a portable rig for something that requires it I suppose. There's also some very large studios around that I could rent for a few hours as an option as well! ;-)
Old 10th February 2015
  #190
Gear Guru
No Room

There are a few recording techniques which minimise the room on the recording. DPA have a selection of mics which clip onto the instrument. Strangely the little 4090 sounded better on a fiddle than a U67! Altiverb can supply the illusion of real spaces, very convincingly, even for the player in the cans. There are plenty of drum samples out there which will be better than many of our efforts! Check out Aerodrums.com A new level of reality due to visually recognised L and R played samples.
DD
Old 10th February 2015
  #191
SEA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Altiverb can supply the illusion of real spaces, very convincingly, even for the player in the cans.

There are plenty of drum samples out there which will be better than many of our efforts! Check out Aerodrums.com A new level of reality due to visually recognised L and R played samples.
DD
I use Altiverb all the time! Over 3 gigs of IR from all sources.

I have tons of libs (like 6 TB) orchestras, film score, all the drums and percussion one could ever use.

That's why I use electronic kits to trigger sample libs. As a drummer myself, instead of trying to mic and build drum booths (if I had the budget I might), but instead I myself use kits recorded at the highest quality from major studios and play them via my midi drum kit.

Then all I do is write the parts... edit... mix... and enjoy!

Make music instead of fight with it! That's my philosophy!
Old 10th February 2015
  #192
Lives for gear
I'm sorry if someone has already mentioned this before and I've missed it, but one of the main reasons for having a reflective floor is that you can't make a simple floor that would be a broadband absorber. Carpets etc. absorb only high frequencies.
Old 12th February 2015
  #193
Gear Guru
HF

SEA. Try the Aerodrums. They can fire BFD etc. afaik directly, bypassing Midi interface wobbles.

@ jetam , IMO it is often better to remove destructive HF reflections which cause nasty sounding comb filtering at the mic, rather than simply say I will have no absorption because it cannot be full range.

From my own psychoacoustic experience, fwiw.......

I never like the sound when in rooms with tiled floors.
I have very very frequently found myself in rooms which caught my ear as sounding great. The biggest commonest factor has always been high and or absorbent ceilings. So lack of an overhead reflection seems desireable.

While I accept the orchestral and other instrument to muso feedback points, I am not convinced, (sorry John and all the researchers.....LOL), that a reflective floor is ALWAYS a good thing in the working studio environment.
A control room can be stressful enough and that harsh sonic glare from the floor from speech and moving about is not exactly calming. I see area rugs in CR's all the time. It's the old Gentleman's club thing. Calm, mellow tone. This has little effect on the speaker sound. Just the reflected human noises and the little bit of room tone. I have always noted that classic Lexicon algorithms roll off HF above as low as 4 KHz.

DD
Old 12th February 2015
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
SEA. Try the Aerodrums. They can fire BFD etc. afaik directly, bypassing Midi interface wobbles.

@ jetam , IMO it is often better to remove destructive HF reflections which cause nasty sounding comb filtering at the mic, rather than simply say I will have no absorption because it cannot be full range.

From my own psychoacoustic experience, fwiw.......

I never like the sound when in rooms with tiled floors.
I have very very frequently found myself in rooms which caught my ear as sounding great. The biggest commonest factor has always been high and or absorbent ceilings. So lack of an overhead reflection seems desireable.

While I accept the orchestral and other instrument to muso feedback points, I am not convinced, (sorry John and all the researchers.....LOL), that a reflective floor is ALWAYS a good thing in the working studio environment.
A control room can be stressful enough and that harsh sonic glare from the floor from speech and moving about is not exactly calming. I see area rugs in CR's all the time. It's the old Gentleman's club thing. Calm, mellow tone. This has little effect on the speaker sound. Just the reflected human noises and the little bit of room tone. I have always noted that classic Lexicon algorithms roll off HF above as low as 4 KHz.

DD
I do absolutely agree that HF absorbtion is often better than no absorbtion.

The thing about control rooms is that you try to avoid the reflective surfaces causing comb filtering. You can block the ER from the floor by placing something like a large console in front of you or by having an absorber between the console/listening position and the speakers. Reflective walls can be angled, you can use diffusion etc.

I often use carpets in tracking room, but won't cover all the floor with it. Sometimes blocking early reflections sounds nice, but covering the whole floor of a room that isn't completely dead will usually affect the reverberation of the room in a bad way, because absorption coefficient of a carpet is usually extremely frequency dependent and it can soon start to sound muddy. Anyway, it's still a relatively subjective thing, but I like rooms built from materials that behave in a simmilar way at all frequencies - concrete>wood, broadband absorption>tuned absorption ...
Old 2nd August 2018
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironbird Studios View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmcconnell View Post
Because what's under it is uneven, painted concrete
Easy solutuion.... skim coat / patch any major imperfections in the concrete floor - and lay down some affordable, click-in, laminate wood flooring. Easily around $2/sq. ft.

It can't be much thicker than 3/8" - and has the foam underlayment attached to each piece for easy install. The foam will also help even out and surface imperfections.

geeLo
What would be considered a major imperfection? I'm converting my garage into a studio. It has a concrete subfloor. I've used self leveling compound to make it a bit more level. It still has some small dips and what not in some spots, I'm wondering if I'll be able to install laminate over it with those small dips.

Also considering the luxury vinyl plank. I understand that vinyl and laminate inherently do not "sound" different, but it feels to me like the laminate is much denser with more mass and rigidity than the vinyl plank, so would I be correct in assuming that in that case the laminate would be more reflective? (not that laminate itself is more reflective, but if the particular product I'm referring to is more rigid than the vinyl?). Some of the vinyl plank does have rigid core, but it still does not seem as dense.

Last edited by 9PointedStar; 2nd August 2018 at 08:21 PM.. Reason: add email notification
Old 2nd August 2018
  #196
Gear Guru
Different Tone

I recently very carefully levelled a concrete floored room, about 4x5Metres.
It had quite the reverb naked. Then we installed Vinyl Plank. Pergo, pretty high grade. The underlay is extremely thin, like paper. The reverberant tone has changed utterly.
I still reckon my favourite sounding floors are polished/varnished concrete. Area rugs or rubber matts to deal with human or instrument noises and to stop drums from moving.

DD
Old 2nd August 2018
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
I recently very carefully levelled a concrete floored room, about 4x5Metres.
It had quite the reverb naked. Then we installed Vinyl Plank. Pergo, pretty high grade. The underlay is extremely thin, like paper. The reverberant tone has changed utterly.

DD
Was this the rigid core vinyl with rubber on the bottom or the thinner kind that is still bendable?

And are you happy with the reverberant tone you are getting?
Old 2nd August 2018
  #198
Gear Guru
Vinylly

It is Pergo Vinyl Plank. About 5mm thick afaik. Very tough but certainly bendable.
I do like it, definitely softer and with a touch of sonic warmth, compared to the bare floors. But the room is still pretty empty, plasterboard, standard low ceiling. I intend installing a good few GIK 244's on the ceiling.

DD
Old 6th August 2018
  #199
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Welp, I just installed some vinyl plank as well this weekend. Did everything I could to get the concrete subfloor flat as possible but was going out of budget and the only way to get it truly flat was to spend more money than I have.

The vinyl plank looks fantastic. However there are several spots where there is an air gap between the plank and the concrete (when I step on those areas I can feel it push down). Feeling a bit stressed about this, as I've read that you definitely don't want an air gap as that can resonate and doesn't reflect as well.

How much of a difference does it make in reality to have some spots like that?

Last edited by 9PointedStar; 6th August 2018 at 03:38 PM..
Old 6th August 2018
  #200
Gear Guru
Level

Vinyl is also very popular with the Hipsters! Did you use Levelling compound? Underlay?

DD
Old 6th August 2018
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Vinyl is also very popular with the Hipsters! Did you use Levelling compound? Underlay?

DD
Lol!

I did use leveling compound. A lot of it. Since this was a garage conversion the floor had a slope going out for drainage. My initial intention was to level it out. Lots and lots of leveling compound later, it is much more "level" but ended up with some small dips and what not, so not totally flat. Which is why I now have pockets where the plank is not sitting tight against the floor.

Used the smartcore vinyl planks which have a rubber type underlay attached to the plank itself. It said not to use any additional underlayment, it would actually void the warranty if I did.

Just hoping I didn't make a big mistake here. Been working towards this studio for 10 years

Thanks so much Dan. I know you have a lot of experience with this topic.
Old 6th August 2018
  #202
Gear Guru
Experience

Lot's of experience with one floor. This is a 25 year old house, but it was the 'Show House' So the build was not overseen. Also ground is soft around here, subsidence.
Anyway I never noticed this until planking the floor. One guy did quite a good job with the levelling compound. Quite a skill. But he didn't go in under the kitchen as asked and some other small issue. I couldn't get him to come back, so another guy came, looked at the floor, and set about levelling it again. Both achieved a very smooth finish, no pockets or bubbles etc. The underlay is paper thin. I guess there is a skill needed with the compound. Both were quite impressive in action, fast moving and accurate.

DD
Old 6th August 2018
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanDan View Post
Lot's of experience with one floor. This is a 25 year old house, but it was the 'Show House' So the build was not overseen. Also ground is soft around here, subsidence...

DD
Hired a guy to help with the whole renovation project, it just turns out that he didn't have much experience with the self leveling cement.

Any thoughts on how much of a difference it will make with there being some gap spots on the floor, as far as resonances goes?
Old 6th August 2018
  #204
Gear Guru
Difference

Guess it depends on how much area. I hope and expect the bubbles will settle. If they dont I would go again with a ninja leveller. Not so much for sound reasons, more that unfinished biz would bug me.
Old 6th August 2018
  #205
Gear Addict
 

I used some self-leveling concrete repair compound (along with the associated adhesion promoter and primer) in an outbuilding to resurface a very rough area of the 40-year-old floor. It was a hot day when I did this (but still within the "acceptable" temperature and humidity range stated in the tech data sheet). The system I used is a "pro" one, designed to withstand industrial wear without needing anything overlaid on it, so it's probably a bit different from what people use when they intend to lay down a floor over top (it contains quite a bit of sand and small aggregate). The compound cured before it could smooth out as much as I would have liked (even using a squeegee and spiked roller) -- the sand and aggregate also didn't help with the smoothing, either. I ended up using a 7" fine concrete grinding disc on an angle grinder to smooth it out after it had cured for a couple weeks. That was slow and messy work, but I'm happy with the result.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 9PointedStar View Post
Lol!

I did use leveling compound. A lot of it. Since this was a garage conversion the floor had a slope going out for drainage. My initial intention was to level it out. Lots and lots of leveling compound later, it is much more "level" but ended up with some small dips and what not, so not totally flat. Which is why I now have pockets where the plank is not sitting tight against the floor.

Used the smartcore vinyl planks which have a rubber type underlay attached to the plank itself. It said not to use any additional underlayment, it would actually void the warranty if I did.

Just hoping I didn't make a big mistake here. Been working towards this studio for 10 years

Thanks so much Dan. I know you have a lot of experience with this topic.
Old 14th October 2018
  #206
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I'm moving soon and will be moving my studio (where I both track and mix) from a room that was upstairs and had wall to wall carpet and a drywall ceiling into a room in the basement that has tile flooring and a drop ceiling. Thanks to all who have contributed to me coming to the conclusion that I need not fret over my floor surface.

Last edited by Infinite Skillz; 14th October 2018 at 06:32 PM.. Reason: added more details
Old 4 weeks ago
  #207
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This seemed like the most appropriate thread to ask this dense question:

My understanding from this thread is that, generally speaking, the concrete surface in a garage should be left as concrete (rather than covered with rubber mats, carpet, etc.) because it's a good, reflective surface. (That's my super-dumbed-down interpretation of what I could understand from this thread!)

Now here's the dumb question: Given the above statement, why is the sound in my garage so sloppy and, for lack of a better word, "overly reflective"? Is that just a matter of me needing to treat the walls with insulation and the ceiling with insulation?

Right now, my garage is totally untreated...It's just a normal garage. And it seems like if I tried to listen to any music in there right now, it would sound like chaos. So my assumption — before reading this thread — was that I needed to cover the reflective concrete. So I'm super lost.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariohardleft View Post
This seemed like the most appropriate thread to ask this dense question:

My understanding from this thread is that, generally speaking, the concrete surface in a garage should be left as concrete (rather than covered with rubber mats, carpet, etc.) because it's a good, reflective surface. (That's my super-dumbed-down interpretation of what I could understand from this thread!)

Now here's the dumb question: Given the above statement, why is the sound in my garage so sloppy and, for lack of a better word, "overly reflective"? Is that just a matter of me needing to treat the walls with insulation and the ceiling with insulation?

Right now, my garage is totally untreated...It's just a normal garage. And it seems like if I tried to listen to any music in there right now, it would sound like chaos. So my assumption — before reading this thread — was that I needed to cover the reflective concrete. So I'm super lost.
Don't be lost. This thread was only about floors.
For more information on the whole room, you can download the Balanced Non-Environment Room Criteria from my resources page.

Cheers,
John
Old 4 weeks ago
  #209
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Quote:
My understanding from this thread is that, generally speaking, the concrete surface in a garage should be left as concrete (rather than covered with rubber mats, carpet, etc.) because it's a good, reflective surface.
Exactly! A plain old concrete slab is a great surface for a studio floor, for many reasons: some acoustic, some psycho-acoustic, some practical.

Quote:
Given the above statement, why is the sound in my garage so sloppy and, for lack of a better word, "overly reflective"? Is that just a matter of me needing to treat the walls with insulation and the ceiling with insulation?
You guessed it! Sort of... The floor of your room is only one of six sides, and not even the most important one. The other five are more important, and for a control room, the rear wall and ceiling are WAY more important. If you have not yet treated any of those, then that's the reason why your room sounds so bad. Once you have the walls and ceiling treated suitably, the room acoustics will improve drastically and there will be little or no need to do anything to the floor.

But don't just throw up random insulation in places where you think it looks good! Rather, rooms should be treated purposefully, with the right type of treatment of the right size, in the right locations.

Quote:
it seems like if I tried to listen to any music in there right now, it would sound like chaos.
Yup. Exactly right. That is, indeed, what it would sound like. "Disgusting" is another possible word that you might use...

Quote:
So my assumption — before reading this thread — was that I needed to cover the reflective concrete. So I'm super lost.
As I mentioned above, the floor is just one of six boundary surfaces, and not even the most important one (acoustically). It's a small fraction of the total surface area. The general rule is "hard floor, soft ceiling", bit don't take that as Gospel truth! It's just a guideline for control rooms in general, and there are many possible reasons why the ceiling could be different. But the floor is pretty much always hard.

Treat the other 5 surfaces in the correct way, and the floor won't need anything.

- Stuart -
Old 3 weeks ago
  #210
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Fantastic info, thank you!
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