The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Big Control Room Needs Acoustic Help Utility Software
Old 24th December 2010
  #1
Gear Head
 
sevansounds's Avatar
 

Big Control Room Needs Acoustic Help

Alright so I'll try to explain what I can but I think the pictures will do most of the explaining in regards to my question. I'll show pics in normal mode and in mix mode with panels surrounding to provide perspective.

Basically I'm in a big room (30 x 15) with pretty odd shapes and layout. Vaulted ceilings from 8-12 foot I think. I'm using the room long wise front to back instead of wide left to right. Utilizing the correct distance from front wall equation from Ethans site. One problem area I'm sure is the kitchen area to my right which opens up quite a bit and throws some slaps back my way I would assume....though.... I keep the 703 fairly close to me in mix mode. Back of the room essentially opens up to the rest of the house so there isn't much for low end build up near me.

703 cloud above me and floating panels to my sides and close behind mix position for first reflection points. I think its some upper mid range freqs that are the problem. Monitors are on primeacoustics and auralex recoil pads as well as 2" thick rubber between them and argosy console.

What I hear in the room isn't translating as well as I'd like (not bad but not as much as I would like). I don't think low end buildup is my problem due to the layout and plenty of exit space for low end info. Though I do have 6" thick bass traps in the corners.

I'm not really sure how to use the program Room EQ to run a chart and see whats going on.

Do I just need a crap load more 703 around the room? Or in more specific areas around mix position? Area rug under mix position?

Any advice is greatly appreciated from you guys...thanks in advance for any info...especially Ethan Winer and Glenn Kuras for all their valuable knowledge and expertise.













Old 24th December 2010
  #2
Lives for gear
 

haha! oh my there are so many different colored lights

But yeah why do you have panels of fiberglass without boxes to hold them and tune them? My guess is because you don't know what frequencies are building up. If your naked sheets of fiberglass aren't absorbing your problem frequencies, covering the room with them wouldn't make a bit of difference! If I were you I'd figure out how to use room EQ or any other measurement software so you can figure out exactly whats going on in what frequency bands, then build tuned and well placed absorbers to combat your build ups. Don't throw random absorbers around! a targeted approach is usually cheaper-and it works.
Old 24th December 2010
  #3
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by sevansounds View Post
I don't think low end buildup is my problem due to the layout and plenty of exit space for low end info. Though I do have 6" thick bass traps in the corners.
Openings that let bass "exit" are good, but that's a large room so you probably need more bass traps. The REW software is not all that complicated to set up and run. That's really your best bet IMO. Maybe this will help:

Room Measuring Primer

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts
Old 8th January 2011
  #4
Gear Head
 
sevansounds's Avatar
 

Thank you guys, I appreciate it. I'll check into Room EQ and post my results in the near future.

Thanks again
Old 23rd January 2011
  #5
Gear Head
 
sevansounds's Avatar
 

Ok, So I went ahead and purchased Fuzz Measure to run some tests on the room.

First time using it but here's the basic run down of my methodology based on Ethans "Everything You Need To Know To Measure A Room" document..which is awesomely written.

Mic is Behringer measurment mic at listening position. Averaging used. Red is Left speaker and Green is Right.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

Here's what I gather based off my limited experience.

1) Based on the freq response graph there is quite a bump around 900hz and 150hz.

2) Based on the bass response graph...it just looks nasty. I also find it interesting how big of a difference there is between one speaker and the other. (Using dynaudio BM6A for the measurement)

3) Based on the waterfall graph my big issues lie around 55hz and 130hz.


With the oddness of the shape of this room I'm not really sure what is the best way to treat it other than what treatment is in the previous pictures.

Ethan..you mentioned more bass trapping. In a room this large would it be more advantages to utilize more bass trapping around the rest of the room (just as I would treating a smaller room) or should I focus more on just treating the listening area around me?

Seems like with a room this size it would take a *$&# load of treatment to show better results on the graph but aren't I really just trying to achieve optimum results at the mix position?

Much appreciation to all of you for your time and expertise!!
Old 23rd January 2011
  #6
SAC
Registered User
 

You must treat the room for LF modal behavior, not the listening area! Modes are not specular localized phenomena, although their energy distribution will vary with location.

The simple answer is to treat all of the corners with porous bass traps.
And as you have an irregularly shaped room, you are dealing with what is known as a coupled space - which makes the behavior more complex and not easily nor accurately predicted by room mode calculators that assume an ideal space.

Additionally, you may want to 'map' the distribution of the various high and low pressure regions in the room with measurements &/or a series of sine wave tones.

LF bass traps can also be placed in the anti-node (peak) boundary regions.

Note, the treatment for LF modal issues is not the same as treating for earl reflections, which is a 'separate' issue featuring a different set of characteristics and concerns.
Old 23rd January 2011
  #7
Gear Addict
 
lostinmusic's Avatar
 

Now that is a big room! For me, I'd use the room across the shorter aspect and put as many budget bass traps on the ceiling as you can afford (GIK Monster for example or similar) before I started making further decisions. I say that because you've got a hard floor and and all hard walls.. which is how I like it. Using the room width ways has always worked better for me.. maybe it reduces the effect of the corners. One other thing, I used to use BM6As when I had a very dry room once but found them too smooth to use in a slightly live sounding room. The rest I couldn't say without being there but I'd think about changing the starting point before going any further.
Old 23rd January 2011
  #8
SAC
Registered User
 

Folks, modal behavior is a ROOM supported phenomena, not a locally derivative behavior.

It doesn't really matter where (within reason) you put the work position in the room as the LF modal behavior is not specular in nature! It is modal, meaning, by definition, the boundaries and dimensions of the room relative to the wavelengths are what reinforce the modal behavior in the form of standing waves! While you might position in in a local (relative) min/max/or midway point, you are not going to avoid modal behavior.

The corners are significant in that in a closed pipe, all of the modes have an anti-node (peak) in the corner. (Note, for an open ended pipe, the terminus will be a node (low pressure null). Being a coupled space, you may as a result see varying behaviors in a few of the corners. Hence why measurements and mapping the physical space behaviorally can be beneficial!

Mid and high frequency specular behavior (and the resultant polar lobing and its appearance in frequency measurements as comb filtering), is an entirely different issue!!! (And for that, you use the ETC response.)
Old 23rd January 2011
  #9
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAC View Post
You must treat the room for LF modal behavior, not the listening area! Modes are not specular localized phenomena, although their energy distribution will vary with location.
Exactly. My home studio is 33 feet from front to back, and reflections from that far rear wall still cause peaks and nulls and ringing. So I have a bunch of bass traps back there too.

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts
Old 23rd January 2011
  #10
Gear Head
 
fat,drunk&stupid's Avatar
 

Have you considered moving the mix position?
Old 23rd January 2011
  #11
SAC
Registered User
 

As stated previously. moving the mix location will not resolve modal issues. At best it may simply modify their local spatial distribution.

On the other hand, if the other end of the room offered better left/right symmetry for specular issues,I would be looking at this; as the lack of symmetry is going to play heck with your imaging.
Old 26th April 2013
  #12
Gear Head
 
sevansounds's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAC View Post
Additionally, you may want to 'map' the distribution of the various high and low pressure regions in the room with measurements &/or a series of sine wave tones.
(1) Could you explain more about how to do this? Would I use the same software I used to measure the room? How would I go about locating the "high and low pressure regions" within the software? And once I have that information how would I apply it to my treatment process?

I am going to be revamping the entire room. More bass traps, more treatment all around. I'm thinking about relocating my mix position to somewhere in the room that is more symmetrical. Once I fix my first reflection points and apply proper bass trapping I am thinking about using pipe and drape around the room for added "help"..... or would I be wasting my money?

(2) For someone starting from scratch is there a good method of measuring different locations in the room to at least have starting point of where the best mix position(s) may be located in the room? Before I bring everything else in.

Ideally I'd like to set this room up to be able to record as well as mix so achieving something that is a decent middle ground for both recording and mixing would be awesome to my overall state of happiness!

With this room being so large with even larger openings to the rest of the house I am a bit overwhelmed at the amount of treatment I think will be needed to make the room properly usable but I'm assuming that a larger room like this would be better than a smaller square room any day of the week?

(3) Once the room is emptied should I begin shooting the room in its "bare" state to find the best natural position to start from? or should I already have the basics for treatment and then begin measuring from there?

This is going to be one hell of a project but I'm looking forward to it and I want to do it right. All the advice you guys help out with is extremely appreciated so I can't begin to thank all of you enough.
Old 26th April 2013
  #13
Lives for gear
 
gullfo's Avatar
 

best bet - start with a bare room and check out the acoustic measurement stickie to get started on measuring: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...er-v3-0-a.html
then this one for sharing it: Before posting your measurement results
Old 26th April 2013
  #14
Audio X
Guest
It would be interesting to see what kind of results you would get with listening and measurement test if you place the 5 free standing gobo's you have in pic #4 between the backs of the speakers and the huge window. Have you tried that already?

It looks like you have about 5 feet of space between your desk and the window, so testing and adjusting the distance between the speaker and wall as well as adding the absorption in front of the window might prove beneficial..also consider a heavy curtain for the window depending on the results that you get. ...a couple other things that might help with your situation or at least to consider once you get your speakers placed is side wall broadband absorption and an area rug with padding in front of the desk/console. gl
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
alemarti / So much gear, so little time
3
rkwyent / Studio building / acoustics
9
Rossome / Bass traps, acoustic panels, foam etc
3
jasonare / Bass traps, acoustic panels, foam etc
9
Luk3_c / Bass traps, acoustic panels, foam etc
2

Forum Jump
Forum Jump