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How does this room sound good? DAW Software
Old 22nd December 2010
  #1
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How does this room sound good?

Apart from the beautiful vaulted wood ceilings ...

I notice a lack of absorption and diffusion here. No panels, nothing hanging. plus parallel walls i mean there's two couches and some throw rugs. hardly pinnacles of engineering.

I'm sure this room sounds good... but, technically, HOW? Does the owner just love massive reverb times all time time?



Old 22nd December 2010
  #2
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mattjew24's Avatar
 

well first off....i would be miking that ROOM!!!! don't even need reverb processing! the idea is not always to absorb every possible sound.
Old 22nd December 2010
  #3
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mattjew24's Avatar
 

sorry to double post. another idea...

use parallel compression on the room mics to blend them nicely with the direct mic sound. ohhhh yeahhh
Old 22nd December 2010
  #4
SAC
Registered User
 

May I suggest the problem may lie in treating 'rooms' from a singular perspective.

If the purpose of the room to create or augment an effect? Or is it intended to reproduce a signal accurately?

The purpose (and hence design/treatment) of a live room and a critical listening/control room are not generally the same!

An analogy might be to try to compare a GMC 2500 Pickup with a Porsche GT3. they are both good vehicles.
So which is better? One may be better suited for LeMans, but will it pull a 28' boat...over a mountain?
Old 22nd December 2010
  #5
With those ceilings preventing parallel surface problems with the floor.. I wonder how hard you'd have to try to make this room sound bad.

Looks Bad-Ass to me!!! :-)
Old 22nd December 2010
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

There are a lot of possible answers, but we can only speculate, as we don't know how it actually sounds or the construction details. There could be a lot of features not easily visible.

First, and foremost, this room is large enough, with large enough ceilings, that it is not really operating in the range of small room acoustics. It probably is not fully into large room acoustics either, so it would take more specific analysis.

Second, it obviously is intended to sound differently than many rooms we often see in smaller studios. It's purpose would obviously be more suited to some styles of music than others. Yes it would be more live sounding. It would not be well suited to lots of overdubs or other situations where you need high track separation. For a band or ensemble that plays together live, it could be a very good thing.

More diffusion and more volume changes the requirements and even the need for absorption. Again, small room acoustics models do not (necessarily) apply. Do not assume that there are as many, or any parallel walls just based on a picture. Lines are misleading in 2D. It sure looks to me like they made most of the new walls non-parallel. It looks like the front left corner of the CR is an oblique angle.

As examples, look at the build threads for Manifold Recording and The Bridge Recording Studio.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/photo...on-thread.html
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/photo...dio-build.html
You won't find much absorption in them, and what there is is discrete and hard to see.
For other examples, look at Abbey Road Studio 2, CBS 30th Street Studio, and even Daniel Lanios' own room. In fact most of the larger studios will have a large, live, and diffuse room.

Diffusion really does change things. In larger rooms, you don't need high-ratio devices such as QRDs to get proper diffusion, because people are not sitting less that 2m from the surface.

And remember, there are also plenty of cool-looking rooms that don't sound nearly as good as they look. It is just hard to tell from a picture.

Nathan
Old 22nd December 2010
  #7
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by spice house View Post
I'm sure this room sounds good.
I'm not so confident. heh I imagine there's a lot of reverb, but all those arched ceiling surfaces focus sound. I used to play cello in an orchestra that rehearsed in a room like that, and the acoustics were terrible. The curved ceilings focused sound in strange ways. You couldn't hear someone playing in your own section four feet away, but it sounded like the flute player across the room was right next to you. I'm not saying this room has that problem, but it probably has similar problems. Though maybe the ceiling has absorption properties we can't see. Who knows. Just because a room looks beautiful, don't assume it sounds equally beautiful.

--Ethan
Old 23rd December 2010
  #8
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Ok well If anyone wants to look up the info now its called Ja Castle and it was designed by Walters-storyk (which is why i assume it sounds good the reverb time is 1.8 seconds
Old 23rd December 2010
  #9
I'll echo (no pun intended) SAC's sentiment that the purpose of the room is for a long tail RT60. Now, the RT60 is confirmed at 1.8 sec.

So, one can conclude that it probably sounds great for a medium/large room of 1.8 sec. But one can also conclude that it's not a very good sounding room with an RT60 of 4 seconds... but possibly a darn good starting point.

The environment is the environment... However, that long of an RT60 can be controlled with mic selection, placement and use of gobo's to get that RT60 controlled down to a fairly dry sound.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #10
Here for the gear
 

should not sound good.

I 'll bet this room will have too much reverb. I worked at a bar while I lived overseas where I used to play guitar. The room was in a historic building and looked smilar to the room shown and the reverb was awful. Sound bounces all over in weird ways. Very confused environment to play in.
Old 24th December 2010
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregears101 View Post
I 'll bet this room will have too much reverb. I worked at a bar while I lived overseas where I used to play guitar. The room was in a historic building and looked smilar to the room shown and the reverb was awful. Sound bounces all over in weird ways. Very confused environment to play in.
hahaha awsome... welcome to gs
Old 24th December 2010
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Just because a room looks beautiful, don't assume it sounds equally beautiful.
Truer words are rarely spoken.

Quite often rooms that look like they will sound good actually sound terrible.

I blame architects!

Sean
Old 24th December 2010
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

Give me that room and some gobos and I bet it could sound great
Old 24th December 2010
  #14
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAC View Post
May I suggest the problem may lie in treating 'rooms' from a singular perspective.

If the purpose of the room to create or augment an effect? Or is it intended to reproduce a signal accurately?

The purpose (and hence design/treatment) of a live room and a critical listening/control room are not generally the same!

An analogy might be to try to compare a GMC 2500 Pickup with a Porsche GT3. they are both good vehicles.
So which is better? One may be better suited for LeMans, but will it pull a 28' boat...over a mountain?
You hit the nail the nail on the head SAC! Going one step further, the live room is over 30,000 ft³. The live room treatment methodology that people see here on Gearslutz hardly apply anymore.

Andre
Old 24th December 2010
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
You hit the nail the nail on the head SAC! Going one step further, the live room is over 30,000 ft³. The live room treatment methodology that people see here on Gearslutz hardly apply anymore.

Andre
yeah like at that range the absorption of air becomes a factor... would you say this is 'too big' for a live room? (in terms of practicality and versatility)
Old 27th December 2010
  #16
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djmukilteo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by spice house View Post
Ok well If anyone wants to look up the info now its called Ja Castle and it was designed by Walters-storyk (which is why i assume it sounds good the reverb time is 1.8 seconds
1.8 at what frequency?
Old 27th December 2010
  #17
Deleted #157546
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
I'm not so confident. heh I imagine there's a lot of reverb, but all those arched ceiling surfaces focus sound. I used to play cello in an orchestra that rehearsed in a room like that, and the acoustics were terrible. The curved ceilings focused sound in strange ways. You couldn't hear someone playing in your own section four feet away, but it sounded like the flute player across the room was right next to you. I'm not saying this room has that problem, but it probably has similar problems. Though maybe the ceiling has absorption properties we can't see. Who knows. Just because a room looks beautiful, don't assume it sounds equally beautiful.

--Ethan

Perhaps the engineer enjoys walking around with a mic and headphones listening for the 'sweet spot'
Old 27th December 2010
  #18
SAC
Registered User
 

Is anyone here even remotely familiar with the Walter-Storyk Design Group?...

Why do I have a 'feeling' (read: know) that if Walters-Storyk designed it, that they have more notebooks full of measurements and proof of performance metrics for that room alone that exceed what most folks here have ever seen in their entire life?
Old 28th December 2010
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAC View Post
Is anyone here even remotely familiar with the Walter-Storyk Design Group?...

Why do I have a 'feeling' (read: know) that if Walters-Storyk designed it, that they have more notebooks full of measurements and proof of performance metrics for that room alone that exceed what most folks here have ever seen in their entire life?
HAHA! yes, i've been giggling to myself about this fact the whole time. If only we could see those notebooks, eh?
Old 28th December 2010
  #20
SAC
Registered User
 

It get's even funnier if one considers that many are trying to apply small room acoustical response control room models to what, in many ways , is a large room acoustical space - where the acoustical 'rules' are in many ways completely different!**

Rather than attempting to critique the room, i might suggest more use the example as a reason to go back and actually study and familiarize themselves with the basic acoustic concepts at play - and for this there is no better source than Sound System Engineering by Davis and Patronis. And note, this text is a synopsis of MUCH more than it appears! It is essentially a distilled Cliff's Notes text of a much greater wealth of knowledge explored and developed by Don and Carolyn Davis and so many others over the course of a career to which I can do little justice to, other than to simply allude to here. They reduce entire texts of concepts (of which they are intimate!) into one or two paragraph references. Thus the actual scope of the text is MUCH greater than that to which too many have demonstrated an understanding who have in the past critiqued it! ...Especially when you consider that almost EVERYTHING mentioned in the Master Handbook of Acoustics (and almost ALL of the diagrams/measurements) are sourced from the workshops and seminars hosted by Don Davis - and that the Master Handbook is simply an expansion of the single Small Room Acoustics chapter in SSE! (Hint! In fact, Everest personally participated in the seminars!)



** A very simple example! RT60 calculations are MEANINGLESS in a small acoustical space that lacks a statistically random diffuse reverberant sound field. And in a large acoustical space, they do not corresponds to what many conceive of as 'reverb' - but rather reverberation effectively becomes the noise floor! Nor does the response to a hand clap in a room, which many attribute to reverb and liveness have anything to do with a reverberant sound field - but rather with the ratio of the direct to first reflection! (Another use for he ETC!) Don't know this??? You should! Read the book!
Old 28th December 2010
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAC View Post
It get's even funnier if one considers that many are trying to apply small room acoustical response control room models to what, in many ways , is a large room acoustical space - where the acoustical 'rules' are in many ways completely different!

Rather than attempting to critique the room, i might suggest more use the example as a reason to go back and actually study and familiarize themselves with the basic acoustic concepts at play - and for this there is no better source than Sound System Engineering by Davis and Patronis. And note, this text is a synopsis of MUCH more than it appears! It is essentially a distilled Cliff's Notes text of a much greater wealth of knowledge explored and developed by Don and Carolyn Davis and so many others over the course of a career to which I can do little justice to, other than to simply allude to here. They reduce entire texts of concepts (of which they are intimate!) into one or two paragraph references. Thus the actual scope of the text is MUCH greater than that to which too many have demonstrated an understanding who have in the past critiqued it! ...Especially when you consider that almost EVERYTHING mentioned in the Master Handbook of Acoustics (and almost ALL of the diagrams/measurements) are sourced from the workshops and seminars hosted by Don Davis - and that the Master Handbook is simply an expansion of the single Small Room Acoustics chapter in SSE! (Hint! In fact, Everest personally participated in the seminars!)
:0 Damn! That just jumped to the top of my list - MHoA is my favorite
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