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My Studio Room Tuning Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 21st December 2010
  #1
Lives for gear
My Studio Room Tuning

Hi guys, so I start this thread to put things in a more clear way, hoping you'll better understand my room and feel more comfortable

ROOM DIMENSIONS:

Length: 5.10 meters (I haven't a converter at hand now, I'll change it when I switch to OSX)
Width: 3.20 meters
Height: 2.70 meters

ROOM PHOTOS:



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Old 21st December 2010
  #2
Lives for gear


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Old 21st December 2010
  #3
Lives for gear
MEASUREMENTS:

Mic at 196 cm (38% of the room)
Mic height 106 cm (my ears level)
Tweeter level 103 cm (it was 106 but I've removed the auralex mopad because it was a little better)
Stand at 30 cm from the back wall
Desk at 37 cm from the stand
Speakers 4 cm toed in (I use as a reference the speakers stand)



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Only Left Speaker



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Only Right Speaker







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Tell me if I missed some information or if I should do something differently

Thank you all!
Old 21st December 2010
  #4
Lives for gear
Now I've placed the speakers not toed in, just to give you an idea, I thought about that solution because the speakers have a wider dispersion (are PMC TB2+) so are designed to be less toed in, PMC says, with your head at the equilateral triangle position, the two speaker should cross 50 cm behind your head, so not a perfect triangle

In that way the highs are also lower in level and the sweet spot is wider, that what PMC says and it seems it is true (for my ears)

So, here we go

MEASUREMENTS

Mic at 196 cm (38% of the room)
Mic height 106 cm (my ears level)
Tweeter level 103 cm (it was 106 but I've removed the auralex mopad because it was a little better)
Stand at 30 cm from the back wall
Desk at 37 cm from the stand
Speakers not toed in



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ONLY LEFT SPEAKER



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ONLY RIGHT SPEAKER



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Old 21st December 2010
  #5
SAC
Registered User
 

A few thoughts.

The 38% 'rule' is not a rule. Its a general starting point. It is an approximation just like the various modal calculators provide approximations of the actual room behavior.

Instead of trying to do all things at once, begin by mapping the modal response of the room. And then of the areas in the vicinity of your anticipated listening position.

Find the best location where modal distribution is the smoothest.

Establish your seating location, and then move forward.

After you have the modes under control (being cognizant of the acoustical response model you desire, thus knowing the return energy requirements and the degree of energy to be preserved - thus assuming you have not gone too crazy with absorption causing a dead room - unless that is the acoustical response you want) - then focus on the specular analysis with the ETC.
Old 21st December 2010
  #6
Lives for gear
MEASUREMENTS

Mic at 196 cm (38% of the room)
Mic height 106 cm (my ears level)
Tweeter level 103 cm (it was 106 but I've removed the auralex mopad because it was a little better)
Stand at 30 cm from the back wall
Desk at 37 cm from the stand
Speakers toed in 7cm (now, this is almost equilateral triangle, the axes cross 25cm behind the mic capsule, consider it's really hard to me to get a precise measure because I have very small pieces of wall to use as a reference and I have a my method, I align the stand using the walls, then I reference the stand. Then to find the triangle I watch the speakers with the head behind the mic and when I don't see the borders I know they are perpendicular to me, to the center. Then I measure how much they are angled referencing to the speaker and I approximate to the nearest number, for example now was 7.2 cm and I take 7, then I angle the other speaker of the same amount and I check at the listening position. It's a bit empirical but it's the only way I found to be able to recall the position. When I've finished I fine tune and if I want it exactly equilateral, I angle more the speakers 7.5 - 8 -8.5 cm till I get the right measure and I check if I'm right watching the measurements, if the highs are more aligned means they are ok. I could do in another way, measuring from the capsule to the tweeter, but then if I move the stand back or ahead, I have to adjust every time, so I prefer to keep some tolerance imaging that some comb filtering or LPF curve is caused by the not so perfect triangle, also what is important for me is the two speaker are placed as symmetrically as I can. I do that because if I do the perfect triangle every time I lose a lot of time, because requires a lot of time to be millimetrically precise and I found out it's easy make human errors, so I leave that at the end, knowing more or less how the freq response changes if I toe in more the speakers or not. As you can see in the graphs, toeing them in boost the highs and the higher resonance in the mids/mid hi

So, here we go



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ONLY LEFT SPEAKER



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ONLY RIGHT SPEAKER



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Old 21st December 2010
  #7
SAC
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elan View Post
what is important for me is the two speaker are placed as symmetrically as I can. I do that because if I do the perfect triangle every time I lose a lot of time, because requires a lot of time to be millimetrically precise and I found out it's easy make human errors, so I leave that at the end, knowing more or less how the freq response changes if I toe in more the speakers or not. As you can see in the graphs, toeing them in boost the highs and the higher resonance in the mids/mid hi

Don't be so obsessive!

As you are located on axis where the energy is (normally!) distributed, you will generally hear more of it!

If on axis is undesirable, you may have the 'wrong' speakers, and/or you can use EQ to tame this. You do not bi-amp for EQ. With biamping you would simply have two bandpasses, one with one level, and another at another shelved level. And only if you 'gain constrain' one bandpass. Can we anticipate distortion? That is NOT the purpose behind bi-amping. Its rare to hear me say this - but EQ is preferable for this purpose.

You will note the particular siting models you are using assume an on axis orientation.

Also, you might want to explore using tones to evaluate the modal response in the room and at the sitting location as well. They are a relatively easy method (providing you are aware of, and address the heating characteristics of sine waves on speakers) that will provide quick and easily interpreted indications of modal issues.
Old 21st December 2010
  #8
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAC View Post
A few thoughts.

The 38% 'rule' is not a rule. Its a general starting point. It is an approximation just like the various modal calculators provide approximations of the actual room behavior.
I know

Quote:
Instead of trying to do all things at once, begin by mapping the modal response of the room. And then of the areas in the vicinity of your anticipated listening position.

Find the best location where modal distribution is the smoothest.

Establish your seating location, and then move forward.
Well I already did that, let me tell you what I've done these last 3 weeks

1) I've emptied the room, taken off every bass traps except for the corner filled with rockwool floor-to-ceiling, because are built in, and the corner traps over the speakers, because are a pain on the ass to take off

2) I've moved the libraries more to the wall in front of the speakers, behind me (I always confuse front wall/back wall) 15 cm one and 25 the other

3) then I placed the monitors against the wall because was the place where I got the modes aligned

And I got this



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Then I started trapping everything, but in the end, I didn't get a result close as it was before and I noticed the traps on the ceiling didn't work at all! they made thing worst, a big dip in the low mids (I don't remember now the freq)

That was the last measurement I did, placing all traps and I couldn't get any better



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Then I moved the sx library where it was and done everything again and was a bit better
Then I moved the dx library where it was and was a bit better

Then I moved the speakers where they were before (I found that place listening to them) and I placed every traps and every thing where it was before and I got the same measurement, then I tweaked a bit of things and I got better measurement
Old 21st December 2010
  #9
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAC View Post
Don't be so obsessive!
Man I just try to do things properly, if they are not symmetric people tell me "why all this comb filtering" I try to do my best, just try, if you can, to give me some comment to what I'm doing because I would like to go back to production and mixing, are 3 weeks I'm stopped

Anyway, what EQ would you suggest me for the monitors? Not a plug in because I want to have it always on, not in a daw because I also use things straight in the total mix or software that doesn't allow plug ins on the master (like recycle, kontakt, stand alone in general)

I like these speakers, I thought to try out bi amping them, and see what happen, I could always sell the amp and get an eq, I mean, I think it depends where the shelf will start, because if it starts at 3k (and considering the crossover is at 2k it's very probable to me) could be the right thing (don't you think?)

What I like is the transient response, the fact they are very 3D, they sound really natural, are the first speakers that seems to listen a band playing in front of me (specially with jazz recording or good acoustic recording in general), so, with my previous speakers I never had this kind of quality, they seem another league. And also the mids seems very flat detailed. I like how the woofer sounds, paper, very similar to ns10, even thought they go down to 35

Quote:
As you are located on axis where the energy is (normally!) distributed, you will generally hear more of it!
yes I know, that's why I thought to "naturally eq" the monitor using them less toed in.. but now, looking at the ETC, I figured out why not toed in is not so good.. with them at almost equilateral, the reflection go under -25 db, which I think it is good

Quote:
And only if you 'gain constrain' one bandpass. Can we anticipate distortion?
What means this?

Quote:
Also, you might want to explore using tones to evaluate the modal response in the room and at the sitting location as well. They are a relatively easy method (providing you are aware of, and address the heating characteristics of sine waves on speakers) that will provide quick and easily interpreted indications of modal issues.
Do you mean like the real trap test cd? I already used it to find the best position for monitors and head and it worked very well :D particularly with the bluetooth keyboard is cool because I can sit there or I can go around the room and change the tone frequency :P

Listening I found 30/35 cm is the best distance from stand to wall (at least using ears) and listening music I found I like to have the speakers as much distant as I can, here I'm allowed to get them at 150 (not toed in, 143 in equilateral placement)
Old 21st December 2010
  #10
Lives for gear
ok, some comments watching the graphs

If I'm not mistaken, in the last graph (the one with the speakers in equilateral placement) I got a rid of the first reflection (the one around 2ms) and I have the one at around 5/6 ms which is around -22 db

so, I think this is a good thing, what do you think? :P

my goal, for now, is finding the place for the needed absorber, so I can build a frame for them and place some slats over them, to make the room more live sounding.

next step will be building some diffusers (the most difficult part probably, also because of money and skill in working with wood)

EDIT: other comments, notice what happen to the Left speaker, when it is not toed in and then when it is at the equilateral placement, the dip in the mids is heavily reduced, also the one in the low mids, that, I think, suggest me the library does something bad, I don't know how to solve this problem, because when I place a trap over the library (in the Left ER point) I get a worse result in the mids.. I'll try again and post the result if you want
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