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This is what I have Modular Synthesizers
Old 19th December 2010
  #1
Gear Head
This is what I have

Ok, please, please help. I like to think I am quite musical, I like to think I am quite intelligent(probably not though). hOWEVER, despite reading about the perfect room sizes etc I am stuck with a room which is 4.5x4.5m 3.5 m high with a bay window on the south facing wall. I know this is not a very specific drawing, I have tried and failed many times with understanding the mere basics of accoustics and of making plans to no decent end. However, my two questions are;

1.Can I add sound treatment to this room to make the room wortwhile at all.

2.sHOULD THIS SIZE OF ROOM, WHICH IS NOT HUGE, BE ABLE TO COPE WITH B&W 604 S3 SPEAKERS AS MY MAIN MIXING/MASTERING SPEAKERS.

I know that 4.5x4.5 is box shaped and not ideal and that the bay window adds another .75m depth but only takes up two 3/5's of the wall width space, so really I can't say the room is 4.5x5.25, but will this bay window help or hinder making the room sound good. Help a keen musician with little brain to get the most out of his room. Thanks guys.
Attached Files
File Type: skp room layout.skp (60.2 KB, 207 views)
Old 19th December 2010
  #2
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

1. Yes, of course room treatment will make the room worthwhile. If you put in enough treatment you could make the room very good.

2. Sure, why not?

More here: Acoustic Basics

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts
Old 20th December 2010
  #3
Gear Head
This is all I have

Hi Ethan, Ethan Winer? Can I have an autograph please?? Thanks for your quick reply. I just thought that the size/shape of the room makes a massive difference to how many modes/nodes you get?? Plus the speakers are big, I thought that I would need a larger room to manage the bass wavelength etc. As I say there is so much info on this subject(as you know)and the technical stuff is too tech for me. I have delved in to Rod Gervais book and also Sayers studio construction, however I just end up getting bamboozled with info. Ethan, if it was'nt too much trouble could you describe how much sound treatment I need and where to place for a pro sounding room, as I say mainly for mixing and mastering
Old 20th December 2010
  #4
Lives for gear
 
SörenHjalmarsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandrum View Post
Ethan, if it was'nt too much trouble could you describe how much sound treatment I need and where to place for a pro sounding room, as I say mainly for mixing and mastering
Could you tell me that aswell Mr Winer, as i also would like to have a professional sounding room. heh

And while your at it, Could you also tell me: - the meaning of life - the key to happiness - how to understand women - how to get in shape quickly without exercising or changing my diet - wich button to push to make my mixes sound good - how to find the holy grail and the lost kingdom of El Dorado - what really happend to the legendary island of Atlantis - how big outer space is - if Harry Potter really exist and how to get into the girls dormitory?

Sorry about the sarcasm mandrum, i couldn't help myself. My intent is not to be condescending, only funny. heh

I'm merely trying to make your expectations reasonable. Although advice on quantity and placement of treatments can make a big improvement in your room, you need to grasp the entirety of the theories involved, if you really want get professional results.

Physics and acoustics are, just like mixing and mastering (or any other complicated subject for that matter) quite complex fields of reference and one should not expect professional results without extensive research, study and practice. Just like with any business where professional results are possible, there is no 'one size fits all' or 'one minute solutions'...

Please dont hate me for that mandrum!

Cheers,
Old 20th December 2010
  #5
Gear Head
Post I dont hate you!

No far from it, I like people who stand up for what they believe. Here is what I believe. Some people are very good in some areas whilst poor in others, they become very good at what they do and so are successfull. Some, very few in my experience are good at everything, and for them life seems to be a bit of a breeze. These individuals can, at times, become what is known as 'masters of nothing'. If someday I begin to understand the complexities of accoustics, then I will perhaps ask more specific questions and then get perhaps even more deep and complex answers to deal with. I have, if you had read my post properly, TRIED, and by that I mean 'VERY TRIED' as you would say it, in English I think. Anyway, I am a 'trying' kind of guy, and anyone who knows me well, knows just how hard I push myself. However, I doubt I will ever be much cop at either physics or maths, but some say I have been blessed with critical ears and a love of music, so from there, as well as the room I have, is where I am at the moment. I realise there is no short cuts and perhaps I wrote one word which you have latched onto. Pro. If I am to spend the amount of money I know these 'bass traps' cost, I want my room to sound pretty decent. I have posted dimentions of the room, and I am sure if Ethan needs any more info he will ask politely for it. If I am going to buy from Ethan the bass traps I need I would appreciate help. This is also what I put in my original post. I used the word, 'help', because I have researched so much and I am in a bit of a confused rut, and want to break through this, so if you do have some really specific site, or book, which explains accoustics more easily than most, and a 'layman' could get a grasp on such subject matter than please let me know. Until then, I will have to rely on the expert advice of people like Ethan to educate me at my level, or advise me the best they can to get the best out of my room, before my head explodes. Now, just to put you in the picture, I realise there are things called modes, nodes, flutter echo, etc, what I don't understand is, when I have a room that I have, where do I begin in making it treated enough to hear the bass clearly in my 604 s3. As I understand my room is relatively small and I have speakers with quite a deep (some would say muddy) bass extension. I don't mean a deep bass extension is muddy, however, the 604's are sometimes stamped as being a little loose down there anyway. So, I was asking, how can I get my room treated, to hear these frequencies and I also asked 'if I actually can?' in the small room I have. That was the second half to my last question, I suppose I added 'pro' because I dont want to spend in excess of $5000 on sound treatment if my room is to sound 1 percent better than at the moment. Now, if I am never going to heatr bass properly in my room with my speakers, then I will have to buy different speakers as well as treat the room, so that kind of determines how much money I have to spare for either. When you look at the questions properly I have asked, as an educater myself, I think they are reasonable questions, though, I never quite know, I just try my best!!!Thanks for your thoughts anyway dood, and as I say, I dont hate you, but if you could help point me in the right direction, I would so appreciate it. Cheers
Old 20th December 2010
  #6
Gear Head
Soren, I should also like to add, I have been reading a post recently where Ethan and another fellow were discussing accoustics in regards to slant walls v rectangle walls. The discussion goes quite in depth, way over my head, however, from the discussion it was of my understanding that the science of accoustics in terms of pre defining how to build a studio can be a bit sketchy, and that starting with a basic layout of the sound treatment followed by analysis using certain tools. The treatment can then be fine tuned in terms of both placement and amount. I think for a man like me, this 'simpler' and some would say 'reliable' method would be the way to go. I would expect 'pro' sound to as close as a man with my brain and spare funds can ever hope to achieve and until I can pay Rod Gervais to come to the UK and design a studio for me, or I do indeed suddenly understand accoustics to a somewhat cutting edge level, I will continue to ask questions at this seemingly childish point of reference.
Old 20th December 2010
  #7
Lives for gear
 
SörenHjalmarsson's Avatar
 

mandrum,

You dont have to explain or defend yourself at all, as i was the one being a dick. I now exactly where you are coming from and had i read your original post a little more carefully, i would have seen that you where trying to avoid that kind of posts, Sorry! I just couldn't let a chance to be humorous go by. heh While at the same time trying to make you aware...

I will try and help you, but could you make your drawing a bit clearer you think? there must be a door somewhere? and how does the window actually look? is that the only window?

Some good stuff:
Acoustic Treatment and Design for Recording Studios and Listening Rooms
RealTraps - A New Approach to Small Room Acoustics
Acoustic Treatment in Home and Project Studios | Record, Mix & Master

Books:
Table of Contents
http://www.amazon.ca/Master-Handbook.../dp/0071360972
Build Your Own Home Studio by J.H.Brandt

Also... read up on how to measure a room... (Adding this: http://www.realtraps.com/art_measuring.htm)

Cheers,

Last edited by SörenHjalmarsson; 20th December 2010 at 10:03 PM.. Reason: Adding link
Old 20th December 2010
  #8
Lives for gear
 
SörenHjalmarsson's Avatar
 

Slanted vs Rectangular:

J. Sayer vs. J.H.Brandt - slanted vs. rectangular


Cheers,
Old 20th December 2010
  #9
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandrum View Post
if you do have some really specific site, or book, which explains accoustics more easily than most, and a 'layman' could get a grasp on such subject matter than please let me know.
Sören gave you some links, and the short "acoustics basics" article I linked earlier explains a lot. However, if you intend to buy treatment from my company as you suggested, you can skip all the questions here and just email RealTraps directly for personal service. Otherwise, there's a huge amount of information on the RealTraps site:

RealTraps Articles
RealTraps Videos

Spend a few hours watching all the videos and you'll be an expert. I am serious.

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts
Old 20th December 2010
  #10
Lives for gear
 
SörenHjalmarsson's Avatar
 

mandrum,

Going with Mr Winers recommendations and products you cant really go wrong. The benefit of DIY though, is that you will be able to add more treatment for the same cost (usually). Absorbtive panels for instance are very easy to make yourself (as you can see by one of my links). That might also enable you to buy the little more expensive stuff (which are also a little more complex to DIY) like Realtraps diffusers. heh

But what you choose to buy or DIY is up to you, your wallet and your DIY ability. heh

As you seemed interested in that, i drew up a little suggestion based on mounted speakers and angled slat walls (not splayed walls), a diffusive/absorbtive backwall and polycylindrical diffusers on the sidewalls in the back. (the backwall can be made completely absorbtive if need be and the polys can be exchanged for absorbtive panels aswell...

This suggestion is just that!! A suggestion!! And i have not made any specific calculations regarding Room modes, ISD, Ray tracing etc... It's no use to do so before the approach/design is settled (your wallet, DIY ability or ISD can prevent a rear wall diffuser for instance).
I can draw up other suggestions aswell (based completely on realtraps products perhaps) if you would like, but i 'think' Mr Winer would give you better advice regarding that. heh

(credits to John L Sayer for the speaker mount design)

Cheers,
Attached Thumbnails
This is what I have-front-wall.jpg   This is what I have-side-view.jpg   This is what I have-rear-wall.jpg   This is what I have-above.jpg  
Old 20th December 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
 
SörenHjalmarsson's Avatar
 

For the record

Of course there should also be a cloud preventing primary reflection of the ceiling (just to be clear) and perhaps a rug to catch floor reflections...

mandrum,

It would be helpful to know more about your setup/layout in terms of equipments, furniture, other restriction, etc., some pictures would be helpful i think.


Cheers,
Old 21st December 2010
  #12
Gear Head
Thumbs up Thanks guys!

Soren, I realised at the time you were just having a laugh and as I said I did not take any offense at all man, to be honest, I did half expect this kind of response for my apparent half arsed question anyway. I usually have a sense of humour, you definately were not being a dick, you have got to have a laugh man, but I really am starting to get stressed with all of this stuff, it really is way over my head!. Thankyou so much for the links, I am off to work now, but I will get a chance later to read through them all. Yeah, I recall that the conversation about the slant verses rectangle walls was started from one of your links. I will need to go and read that again as ell as the original article itself. I do remember Ethan later in the conversation about slant v straight, giving very impressive reasons for his argument and I did have a good chuckle at this. Thanks again, feel free to take the proverbial anytime mate, its all good. lol.
Old 21st December 2010
  #13
Gear Head
Thanks guys

Ethan, Thanks again. I have watched a couple of your videos on the way to this post, one from the site directly after your last post and one about 12 months ago which I have revisited about the 'perfect room'. On that particular video, I can remember how impressed I was with the different types of product you produce, and I did gain a little knowledge about where to place stuff. Bass traps to the front walls and corners, diffusers at the back, total covarage of the ceiling with some kind of mineral/rock wool absorbtion as well as wood being the finish off the room, left to add a little something in the sound. It was very impressive, I alsoremember at the time thinking I could not afford that. Well, I am sure you know more than anyone how the recording bug catches boys and I am sure the benefits of the kind of outlay for that sound treatment would be totally worthwhile. I am guessing around $10,000 for that room, I havn't watched the video for a few months, so can't remember if you gave a quote at the time. Basically if I give your dept a ring, would they be able to give me a package to suit my particular room, obviously as Soren had said earlie, if I give details of doors, windows etc, is there any other details they would require, as I just can see me later taking this hopefully easier option, I really do need to get the ball rolling on the condition of my room as I tend to agree with things you have said from other posts you have made with the room and ears being as if not more important than the gear. I also hear what you say about the importance of monitors, all this advice seems to resonate with the pro's and indeed was echoed in a recent post from the man himself, the guy who recorded the beatles, I think we all know his name. To top all this, I am really starting to get addicted to this site, and learning as well as chatting with passion filled successfull musicians like yourself, who find the time to help the less able like myself, into this apparent mystical world of recording. Thanks for taking the time to answer my post Ethan, your advice is always cherished.
Old 21st December 2010
  #14
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandrum View Post
if I give your dept a ring, would they be able to give me a package to suit my particular room
Yes, Jim and I do this all the time. Just call or email us from the Contact page of our web site and we'll take it from there.

--Ethan

________________
The Acoustic Treatment Experts
Old 21st December 2010
  #15
Gear Head
New pic Soren

Soren, here is the room now with bay window and door to an uncanny scale and likeness.
Attached Files
File Type: skp room layout.skp (1.23 MB, 186 views)

Last edited by mandrum; 21st December 2010 at 11:20 PM.. Reason: new pic
Old 21st December 2010
  #16
Lives for gear
 
gullfo's Avatar
 

this last one seems to not be right. is it possible to just create a simple floor plan view with accurate measurements?
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