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Marble/Tile Flooring for Live Room
Old 28th October 2010
  #1
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Marble/Tile Flooring for Live Room

What do you guys think? Will this work or do I have to overlap it with carpeting/wood?

If this is okay, what should be material for the ceiling?

Room dimensions are LxWxH: 40ftx20ftx10.5ft
Walls are painted cement.
Old 28th October 2010
  #2
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
It would be like having a concrete floor which is fine.
Old 28th October 2010
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
It would be like having a concrete floor which is fine.
Thanks Glenn, what would be good material to be used in the ceiling to complement cement flooring? Would wood diffusors give out too much reflection? Should I go for absorbent material instead?
Old 28th October 2010
  #4
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jhbrandt's Avatar
My recommendation would be; Absorptive ceiling (50%).

The rest could be checker-boarded with PRDs - like the RPG skylines.

Hmmm... I would also recommend changing those dimensions a bit. - All three dimensions have 10 in common - this could be very bad in terms of modal activity and make the room 'hum the tune'. If you cannot change dims - go with a fully absorptive ceiling - and/or maybe make a shorter wall double slanted (Geddes approach) to throw the waves into the oblique.

Cheers,
John
Old 28th October 2010
  #5
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avare's Avatar
 

It is long to quote all, so this is to what John just wrote.

+1.

Andre
Old 29th October 2010
  #6
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Here are some pictures and exact dimensions of the place i'm going to be working on.
Attached Thumbnails
Marble/Tile Flooring for Live Room-img_7226.jpg   Marble/Tile Flooring for Live Room-img_7225.jpg   Marble/Tile Flooring for Live Room-img_7227.jpg   Marble/Tile Flooring for Live Room-img_7230.jpg   Marble/Tile Flooring for Live Room-layout1.jpg  

Old 29th October 2010
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
My recommendation would be; Absorptive ceiling (50%).

The rest could be checker-boarded with PRDs - like the RPG skylines.

Hmmm... I would also recommend changing those dimensions a bit. - All three dimensions have 10 in common - this could be very bad in terms of modal activity and make the room 'hum the tune'. If you cannot change dims - go with a fully absorptive ceiling - and/or maybe make a shorter wall double slanted (Geddes approach) to throw the waves into the oblique.

Cheers,
John
What do you recommend to be the distribution of absorbent and RPG diffusors? Would alternating them be a good idea?
Old 29th October 2010
  #8
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Wow, That is a nice room. You are very lucky... with all those windows, I wouldn't worry about modal problems. ~shrug~

And yes, I would recommend checker-boarding the skylines and absorption panels on the ceiling. This alone may yield a very nice acoustic in that room.

Just try to get it so that no untreated surfaces face each other. Glass facing wall is probably not too bad. But where walls face each other, apply angled panels, diffusion, or absorption - your choice.

Cheers,
John
Old 29th October 2010
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
Wow, That is a nice room. You are very lucky... with all those windows, I wouldn't worry about modal problems. ~shrug~

And yes, I would recommend checker-boarding the skylines and absorption panels on the ceiling. This alone may yield a very nice acoustic in that room.

Just try to get it so that no untreated surfaces face each other. Glass facing wall is probably not too bad. But where walls face each other, apply angled panels, diffusion, or absorption - your choice.

Cheers,
John
Thanks John, I'm happy to hear that my room will be great to work on.
1. What about corners? Should I create small slanted walls just so I dont have 90degree angled corners?
2. Would there be a big difference if I made QRDs instead of Skylines? We don't have suppliers for either here in the Philippines and I would have to DIY it so it would take forever to make dozens of Skylines but if it's worth the trouble....
3. If I would be making skylines, would styrofoam material yield good results? (i'm worried about the wood blocks falling off and being a safety issue)


I'm currently planning/designing/earning before I start with construction. I'll be sure to get pictures and documentation posted here.
Old 31st October 2010
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassman88 View Post
1. What about corners? Should I create small slanted walls just so I dont have 90degree angled corners?
No, don't slant the corners. If you can, trap them. No matter the room, it can always be improved (low frequency accuracy) with trapping.
I am curious, could you tell me where you got the idea that getting rid of 90 deg corners is a good thing? (I honestly want to know, because myth-busting is in my job description)
Boundary effects occur at boundaries. Twice the bounary effect occurs at the junction of 2 boundaries, etc. What I am saying is, "It's gonna happen! you can change angles so that calculations are more difficult, but it's still gonna happen."

You are better off 'using' this effect to your advantage and trap the boundaries where they meet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassman88 View Post
2. Would there be a big difference if I made QRDs instead of Skylines? We don't have suppliers for either here in the Philippines and I would have to DIY it so it would take forever to make dozens of Skylines but if it's worth the trouble....
Skylines (PRDs) offer hemispherical diffusion while QRDs diffuse in one dimension only - depending on well orientation.

PRDs also offer deeper attenuation of the diffuse reflection in the specular direction - IOW, in the normal incident angle of reflection from the source. This is particularly useful at closer than normal distances - like the ceiling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassman88 View Post
3. If I would be making skylines, would styrofoam material yield good results? (i'm worried about the wood blocks falling off and being a safety issue)
Hard styrofoam, yes. You can also use O/C Formular 150 or similar foam board insulation products. - the important thing to note is that the material should be reflective at the frequencies of interest.

Cheers,
John
Old 31st October 2010
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
I am curious, could you tell me where you got the idea that getting rid of 90 deg corners is a good thing? (I honestly want to know, because myth-busting is in my job description)
i tend to get rid of 90° (and other corners) by building out my trapping using slats and bass traps. this introduces angles and absorption in effectively one assembly. i would not (typically) create angled isolation corners simply because it wastes space which could be used for trapping.

please be gentle with me heh
Attached Thumbnails
Marble/Tile Flooring for Live Room-slat-resonator-detail.jpg   Marble/Tile Flooring for Live Room-slat-resonator-detail-2.jpg  
Old 1st November 2010
  #12
Sen
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Sen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
I would also recommend changing those dimensions a bit. - All three dimensions have 10 in common - this could be very bad
Cheers,
John
Not entirely true...the last dimension is 10.5 not 10, but you were close yes
40 and 20 divided by 10.5 don't equal exactly 4 and 2 respectively, which is what I think you were implying.
Old 1st November 2010
  #13
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andrebrito's Avatar
 

I prefer wood , still reflective but less than concrete or tile
Old 3rd November 2010
  #14
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jhbrandt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gullfo View Post
i tend to get rid of 90° (and other corners) by building out my trapping using slats and bass traps. this introduces angles and absorption in effectively one assembly. i would not (typically) create angled isolation corners simply because it wastes space which could be used for trapping.

please be gentle with me heh
haha... well, that's not the type of 'corner changing' that I was referring too. This assembly of yours is excellent - eliminating the 'focusing' effect of the corner and using the space for trapping.
As always, there is more than one way to skin a cat. That's why this is so much fun.

Cheers,
John
Old 3rd November 2010
  #15
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
No, don't slant the corners. If you can, trap them. No matter the room, it can always be improved (low frequency accuracy) with trapping.
I am curious, could you tell me where you got the idea that getting rid of 90 deg corners is a good thing? (I honestly want to know, because myth-busting is in my job description) =
Oh now I get it. I got the idea coz i almost always never see studios with 90 degree corners.

Thanks everyone. This has been very helpful
Old 3rd November 2010
  #16
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by gullfo View Post
i tend to get rid of 90° (and other corners) by building out my trapping using slats and bass traps. this introduces angles and absorption in effectively one assembly. i would not (typically) create angled isolation corners simply because it wastes space which could be used for trapping.

please be gentle with me heh
I see in your sketch that you topped your rigid insulation with MDF diffusors? If I used plywood instead of MDF would it defeat the purpose of having rigid insulation behind it?
Old 3rd November 2010
  #17
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jhbrandt's Avatar
Plywood, MDF, hardwood, hard board... all work pretty much the same at the same thicknesses...
Old 3rd November 2010
  #18
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andrebrito's Avatar
 

If you are building a membrane absorber using MDF is different than using plywood or other kind of wood, it will shift the resonance frequency
Old 3rd November 2010
  #19
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
Plywood, MDF, hardwood, hard board... all work pretty much the same at the same thicknesses...
So if I understand correctly, the rigid insulation behind will still function as bass traps as long as the plywood/MDF is of a certain thickness?
Old 3rd November 2010
  #20
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jhbrandt's Avatar
The plywood can be any thickness. The random widths of the gaps between the slats and the open top and bottom insure that the unit is not a tuned trap.

The reflective slats across the front make the broadband trap into a low-pass filter - so basically, the trap performs in the wave region, extending only partially into the transition region.

Does that help?

-- John
Old 4th November 2010
  #21
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
Thanks John. This makes sense. What happens though if there will not be reflective/slanted slats in front of the insulation? What If i just wrap the insulation with cloth? Will this mean necessary high frequencies will be died down?

Thank you for being patient with my questions.
Old 4th November 2010
  #22
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jhbrandt's Avatar
Kind of... if the corner trap is covered only with fabric - you have a nice broadband absorber. I wouldn't worry about the HF absorption with only these type of corner traps.

We put slats or polys on them to keep the mids and highs in the room a little longer.

Cheers,
John
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