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building home studio advice needed
Old 26th March 2010
  #1
Lives for gear
building home studio advice needed

hi friends,

i am going to start my home studio with control room and vocal booth. the room is length 17 feets, width 14 feets and height 9 feets. please analyze my sketch

initial room building home studio advice needed-blank.jpg final sketchbuilding home studio advice needed-render2.jpg



before starting work i need your comments on my final sketch.

is the brick shelf on the right side of room creating any problem

i have heard that there should be symmetry on back side of speakers. is the symmetry maintained or broken with cabin on one side

i should build my own bass traps or go for auralex

if i can change anything or everything please let me know
Old 26th March 2010
  #2
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga View Post
hi friends,

i am going to start my home studio with control room and vocal booth. the room is length 17 feets, width 14 feets and height 9 feets. please analyze my sketch

initial room Attachment 164787 final sketchAttachment 164788



before starting work i need your comments on my final sketch.

is the brick shelf on the right side of room creating any problem

i have heard that there should be symmetry on back side of speakers. is the symmetry maintained or broken with cabin on one side

i should build my own bass traps or go for auralex

if i can change anything or everything please let me know
1. Go for Left/Right symmetry in your CR - apparently there is none on your sketch.

2. Are the speakers and desk the actual representations of your real (or future)gear and furniture and their position? Or are they just pre-made models that you used to "fill" the space?

3. The speakers tend to create more bass buildup when placed right against the wall (except soffit mounting)

4. The ideal listening distance from front/back wall is 38%.

5. Buy Rod Gervais's book

6. State some more details about your place, preferrably after reading at least something from the book - which can be pretty tough to comprehend at once... at least for me it was

7. Visit Ethan Winer's page, Glenn Kuras's page an John Sayers's page (this one has a nice forum too) for some more info

8. Last but not least: Read other posts and search heavily before opening your own thread.

Cheers
Mike
Old 26th March 2010
  #3
Lives for gear
please give me details about symmetry in my case

desks and speakers are only for sketch purpose

i am mainly concerned with cabin perfection and room symmetry as other issues are not shown in this sketch (corner bass traps, absorption panels)
Old 26th March 2010
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga View Post
please give me details about symmetry in my case

desks and speakers are only for sketch purpose

i am mainly concerned with cabin perfection and room symmetry as other issues are not shown in this sketch (corner bass traps, absorption panels)
Symmetry: LR symmetry for even ditribution of L/R audio channels... i.e.: both direct and reflected audio waves of each respective channel must arrive to your ear at the same time. You even have a convexity in that " beige pedestal" area next to the booth - what is it anyway? And even if you sealed that space and created more rectangular-like space for the CR
your dimensions would be 13x14 - almost a square which is the least ideal room dimension ratio in terms of room modes - I strongly suggest you to do the things I mentioned in my previous post as it is obvious that you have very little knowledge in this field my friend - but don't worry, every one of us is born uneducated.

Just a month or two of study is gonna save you years of trial-and-error when correcting your space. And just couple of days of studying other plans of similar sized "garage" studios will literally open your eyes - Amen and Halelujah. One tip at the end - John Sayers's forum has superb sample plans that woud fit to your actual dimensions. These are bitmap images (I think mostly courtesy of SAE College) and some of them (made by Master Sayers himself) are even in 3D in Google Sketchup format. Dunno in what program you made your sketch but Google Sketchup is a free 3D drawing software and I recommend it, for there are many studio designs on studio building forums that were made using it. And besides there are tons of designs submitted by forum users - this applies for Gearslutz forum too.

Good luck my friend
Mike
Old 26th March 2010
  #5
Lives for gear
thanks for your advice but please suggest me how to deal with the shelf in the right corner of room

the shelf is a construction problem and it cannot be broken( there are stairs underneath shelf)

should i make cabin or not
Old 26th March 2010
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga View Post
thanks for your advice but please suggest me how to deal with the shelf in the right corner of room

the shelf is a construction problem and it cannot be broken( there are stairs underneath shelf)

should i make cabin or not

#6 from my first post PLEEEASE - say what you want to do in your room (what do you want to record amd mix, what genre - acoustic, electronic, etc), where is the room located (like: upstairs, garage, basement, any adjacent walls with living rooms and/neighbors etc. etc.)... I want all the details, details

So stop "ordering your dish" unless you know what kind of food you eat or do not. Also before you state specific details and ask questions related to these details you won't get any decent answer...
Old 26th March 2010
  #7
Lives for gear
main purpose is music programming(loops , samples, keyboard parts) , mixing and mastering.

genre is Punjabi music

no live recordings except
vocals which have to be recorded (sometimes)


room is located on first floor
no adjacent walls with living room
area is very cool and noiseless
Old 26th March 2010
  #8
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

start from scratch.

you are eating into your length dimension with the booth. not a good idea.

find a room mode calculator, and determine a good width of the room based on your existing length and height.

construct that wall to divide your booth from the control room, and include the stair soffit in the booth portion of the room.

now you should be left with a reasonably sized control room with out the length compromised.

is the vocal booth a must have?

also, follow monkey's advice and do some research. there's a lot to all of this. what's your budget and time line?
Old 26th March 2010
  #9
Lives for gear
very good advice but if u see in the room's picture shelf is 5 feets in width and the total room is 14 feets the width left will be 9 feets which is equal to height.(room mode problem)

my budget is approx 2000 dollars or 1 lakh indian rupees

time span is very very short

if vocal booth is adjusted its really good and if not mixing and mastering part is more important
Old 26th March 2010
  #10
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga View Post
time span is very very short
meaning you have the means by which to start soon, or you HAVE to start soon. very different things.

i now see the problem in my firs suggestion in terms of modal spacing.

how about using what is currently the "width" as your length, and put the booth portion where it is in your first rendering, but make a wall the entire length. make the room in the 11' wide neighborhood.

i'm not qualified to answer these types of questions for the record, but if you're in a rush, it's shlubs like me who may be your only hope. where are you located?
Old 26th March 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
yes this may be done. i will check the dimensions in room mode calculator. symmetry will also be maintained. if u can think some another alternative to this in tackling shelf please suggest me.

suppose i dont make cabin then should i built same sized shelf on the left hand corner to maintain symmetry

i have to start soon. i am currently working in a small bedroom without acoustic treatment(working using headphones)

i am in india
Old 27th March 2010
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

design idea for your room

Hi Amit,

I'm gonna post a design idea for your room. It is based on the knowledge that I have learned from the valuable sources I mention above in my first post in this thread. But I need at least the following from You:

Give me the exact inner dimensions of your room, it's limitations (where is/are the entrance door/doors - or any other door and windows for that matter, what exactly is that pedestal - I already asked you about it..., is there anything above or under the room, what is the building made of, what ceiling and flooring,). Simply describe the place for me as if I were there. You might take some pictures too... State also what speakers will you be using. If possible, post the measurements in meters/centimeters. AFAIK India has adopted the metric system, which we - the continental Europeans - prefer heh.

I know the prices of drywall in India are cheap - I assume, your budget covers the building costs. What's more usual framing method in India - wood or metal? If you intend to do the work yourself/with friends do you have any experience with drywalling?

And how much time do you have exactly?
Old 27th March 2010
  #13
Lives for gear
thanks a lot for giving me new hope. i will get back as early as possible with the information u are asking.(probably with in 1-2 hours). please check it
Old 27th March 2010
  #14
Lives for gear
EXACT ROOM DIMENSIONS

LENGTH 17 FEETS 7 INCHES (535.94 CM)

WIDTH 14 FEETS 1 INCHES (429.26 CM)

HEIGHT 9 FEETS 4 INCHES (284.48 CM)



DOOR DETAILS

DOOR IS EXACTLY LOCATED AT PLACE SHOWN IN SKETCH [ 2 FEETS 11 INCHES (88.9cm) away from the corner] . THERE ARE NO WINDOWS


ABOUT PEDESTAL

WHEN MESON BUILD THIS HOUSE HE STARTED BUILDING THIS ROOM UP THE STAIRS(WAY TO STUDIO/FIRST FLOOR). FOR THIS REASON HE BUILD
PEDESTAL SO THAT WHILE WALKING THROUGH THE STAIRS FOR FIRST FLOOR OUR HEAD MIGHT NOT TOUCH THE ROOMS FLOOR(FROM DOWNWARDS). I WILL POST U A PICTURE .SO UNDERNEATH PEDESTAL THERE ARE STAIRS AND UNDER THE ROOM'S FLOOR THERE IS A LIVING ROOM. THIS PEDESTAL CANNOT BE BROKEN

PEDESTAL SIZE --- LENGTH 4 FEETS 11 INCHES ( 149.86 CM)

WIDTH 3 FEETS 10 INCHES ( 116.84 CM)

HEIGHT 2 FEETS 5 INCHES (73.66 CM)


FLOORING AND CEILING IS AT THE CEMENTED STAGE. I AM PLANNING FOR WOODEN FLOORING. ALL THE WALLS ARE JUST BRICK CEMENTED WALLS


SPEAKERS PLANNED ---- GENELEC NEIRFIELD (model is to be decided)

MY CURRENT GEAR ---- PC -- CUBASE 5 -- WAVELAB ---ROSETTA 200---MOTU 828 MK2---FOCUSRITE COMPOUNDER---YAMAHA HS 50 M


I WANT TO FACE TOWARDS THE LENGTH SIDE OF ROOM AS SHOWN IN THE RENDER SKETCH


GENRE PUNJABI MUSIC (ALREADY IN THIS FIELD FROM LAST 9 YEARS)


ORDER OF IMPORTANCE OF STUDIO

1. MUSIC PROGRAMMING ( LOOPS, SAMPLES AND KEYBOARD PARTS)

1. MIXING AND MASTERING

2. LIVE VOCALS ( SOMETIMES)

3. ANY OTHER LIVE RECORDING EXCEPT VOCALS ( NEVER)


I WILL SEND PICTURES IN A DAY
Old 27th March 2010
  #15
Lives for gear
Main framing will be done of wood only.

Carpenter will do all the work.

I have to start work with in 10 to 15 days
Old 27th March 2010
  #16
Gear Head
 

Dykstraster had a good idea facing the other way, that´s where I would face as well. Then on the pedistole You could make a tech-booth, where all your noise-making computers and such would be. Would make the control room nicer to listen in. I wish I had a chance to do that.
Is there a reason, why You don´t want to face the other way?
Old 27th March 2010
  #17
Lives for gear
i think in both cases(length as length and width as length) result will be the same


in first case if we sit lengthwise if we make cabin as shown or suppose make the cabin in centre and make full wall in front covering the pedestal the results will be


length 17'7"- 3'10" = approx 14'3"

width = 14'1"



in second case if we sit width wise and make cabin as in first case results will be



length =14'1"

widht 17'7"- 3'10" = approx 14'3"



in both case room mode problem will also be there
Old 27th March 2010
  #18
Gear Head
 

But You could build the wall anywhere and make the vocal booth bigger. The wall doesn´t need to touch the pedistole as long as the pedistole is inside of it. How about You make the control room something like
14 x 12 x 9, or
14 x 13 x 9.

Peace.
Old 28th March 2010
  #19
Lives for gear
hi monkey gang here are some pictures. Other information is given in my previous reply


House front
building home studio advice needed-house-front.jpg

stairs
building home studio advice needed-stairs.jpg

stairs changed view (roof above the wooden cupboard shown is the pedestal's bottom area inside the room . you may understand from the picture.

building home studio advice needed-stairs-1.jpg

first door entry. this is a small room for second entry into big room
building home studio advice needed-first-entry-door.jpg

room view
building home studio advice needed-studio-room.jpg

room changed view
building home studio advice needed-studio-room-view-2.jpg
Old 28th March 2010
  #20
Gear Maniac
 

Hi Amit,

I've just looked at all the info you provided. Now is your situation clearly defined.

First of all - I don't think it is wise to plan start building in 10-15 days when you don't have a design yet. I told you I can provide a design idea - not the exact plans with all the measurements... but concerning the size of your place and it's purpose not so much work needs to be done.

I think you don't need any decoupling at all since majority of the music will be done with samples and you have a quiet neighborhood.

Since you said that even the vocals will be recorded only up and there, do you think you need the booth so much? I woudn't divide the place in your situation. I would make it one mixing room/producer's suite. What do you think?

get back to you tomorrow

mike
Old 29th March 2010
  #21
Lives for gear
ya i have given possibly all the information

as per isolation is concerned i was just planning to make wooden studs and fill with insulation and cover the studs with mdf.( no floating floor or walls)

i am also thinking to avoid vocal booth as otherwise also vocals in control room will be better
Old 29th March 2010
  #22
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

I would do something like this:

pedestal is incorporated into the desk support.

all framed walls are false with slats breathable to insulation within. side walls and ceiling are both splayed out 5 degrees.

superchunks in front corners, on top of desk

back wall is completely trapped, and diffusor in the center

would also superchunk all ceiling wall corners

cloud and side first reflection points may still need to be trapped, in spite of angle.

for wall and ceiling slats, rendering is generic. measure room to find mode peaks and use a slat calc to determine actual % of wood vs. fabric, and wood thickness.

I am not a studio designer, rather, someone who really likes to draw... and apply what I have learned so far, which is to say... not enough.

Good luck, it sure would have been great had you started asking questions a number of months sooner, as you're design would be far more in depth, and devised by people who actually know what they are talking about.

[EDIT] I just realized, the side walls would have to be roughly 6" shorter, so that the ceiling could actually be framed at the back wall position, but you get the idea.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-amit-front.jpg   building home studio advice needed-amit-side.jpg   building home studio advice needed-amit-back.jpg   building home studio advice needed-amit-top.jpg  
Old 30th March 2010
  #23
Gear Maniac
 

Hi Dyk,

You have done exactly what I was going to propose - using the pedestal as the base for a desk - at 73 cm it has ideal ergonometrics heh

Now I'm in the middle of drawing - but you've got the job done first thumbsup

Just to add to your work - I've figured out the best room ratio that will suit the actual room size. It's first Louden: H: 281,5 cm W 394cm L:535cm.
Also squeezing the width of the room on the side of the pedestal would be advisable. I would probably make the room just a pinch smaller (keeping the ratio of course) - so I had more space between the real ceiling and the flush celing for the installation of lights/wires, and maybe hvac ducting...

Those small genelecs are a good choice. You don't need to fire them up too loud, so even less room will be heard. Amit mentioned genelec as one of the choices too.

Amit:

1. How big is the first entrance room? Maybe that could serve as a booth one day? (not necessarily though)

2. Have You considered some sort of HVAC? You'll run out of fresh air after a couple of hours in a closed room with no windows.


Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I would do something like this:

pedestal is incorporated into the desk support.

all framed walls are false with slats breathable to insulation within. side walls and ceiling are both splayed out 5 degrees.

superchunks in front corners, on top of desk

back wall is completely trapped, and diffusor in the center

would also superchunk all ceiling wall corners

cloud and side first reflection points may still need to be trapped, in spite of angle.

for wall and ceiling slats, rendering is generic. measure room to find mode peaks and use a slat calc to determine actual % of wood vs. fabric, and wood thickness.

I am not a studio designer, rather, someone who really likes to draw... and apply what I have learned so far, which is to say... not enough.

Good luck, it sure would have been great had you started asking questions a number of months sooner, as you're design would be far more in depth, and devised by people who actually know what they are talking about.

[EDIT] I just realized, the side walls would have to be roughly 6" shorter, so that the ceiling could actually be framed at the back wall position, but you get the idea.
Old 30th March 2010
  #24
Lives for gear
hi,
excellent design
first of all thanks to monkey gang and dyk. i really appreciate for your excellent design and time you have taken from your schedule . i am really a big big fan of gearslutz members. i am also expecting design from monkey gang. before implementing mr. dyk plan finally i have few questions in mind which i want to share after mr. monkey gang's plan.
Old 30th March 2010
  #25
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Hey guys.

I hear you on the ratios Monkey, but they're actually pretty good as is, certainly no big red flags.

In the height dimension for example, you suggest lowering it roughly 3cm. That's a daunting task.

Any wall you create will have to be quite massive, if it's to compete with concrete. Right now, in terms of modes, those concrete walls are pretty good, as they are pretty accurate in their reflectivity, and being able to predict the width and height modes ahead of time is of great use in determining the slat configuration.

I would suggest some ray tracings to determine whether or not the ceiling and side walls need a bit more canting. I'll see if I can get to that today.

HVAC is a good consideration (again, this is why I'm not a designer), and depending on which walls are external, ducting could be incorporated in the ceiling at the front of the room, or inside the bass trap wall at the back.
Old 30th March 2010
  #26
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johndykstra's Avatar
 

Here's the ray tracing. 60 degree dispersion is shown in yellow, and 90 degree shown in green.

It's never been clear to me which to use, as I've seen it done both ways.

If 60 degree is correct, you're in the clear. If 90 degree is appropriate, then back to the drawing board, or use side absorbers.

Or, narrow the listening triangle a bit and less angle... though I prefer to not "wear" my monitors so much.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-sidewall-ray.jpg  
Old 30th March 2010
  #27
Lives for gear
hi dyk and monkey gang

before i call for carpenter for initializing your plans i want to clear few points.

1. for calculating room modes how to calculate the width, length or height of the room, from slats to slats after insulation or from concrete wall to concrete wall. if the answer is from slats to slats then the ceiling and side walls are not parallel. measurement changes as walls goes unparalleled.

2. superchunks are better or hanging rectangle panel bass traps with air gap behind it.

3. the speakers shown resembles small size. is this for some technical reason or we can keep medium sized (6" or 8") speakers on the desk. will they produce vibrations on the desk. i have searched in this forum about speakers placement on desk or stands. maximum searches goes for speakers on stands behind the desk. Are they not close to the front wall (38 percent rule)

4. in one of the reply, mr. monkey gang replied:

Those small genelecs are a good choice. You don't need to fire them up too loud, so even less room will be heard

does my room has some weakness (in spite of your studio plan )so that we have to compensate for small speakers and lessen the rooms affect.

5. does the insulation behind slats works for sound isolation or for acoustic purpose( air gaps between the frames for breathing)
Old 30th March 2010
  #28
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga View Post
hi dyk and monkey gang

before i call for carpenter for initializing your plans i want to clear few points.

1. for calculating room modes how to calculate the width, length or height of the room, from slats to slats after insulation or from concrete wall to concrete wall. if the answer is from slats to slats then the ceiling and side walls are not parallel. measurement changes as walls goes unparalleled.

2. superchunks are better or hanging rectangle panel bass traps with air gap behind it.

3. the speakers shown resembles small size. is this for some technical reason or we can keep medium sized (6" or 8") speakers on the desk. will they produce vibrations on the desk. i have searched in this forum about speakers placement on desk or stands. maximum searches goes for speakers on stands behind the desk. Are they not close to the front wall (38 percent rule)

4. in one of the reply, mr. monkey gang replied:

Those small genelecs are a good choice. You don't need to fire them up too loud, so even less room will be heard

does my room has some weakness (in spite of your studio plan )so that we have to compensate for small speakers and lessen the rooms affect.

5. does the insulation behind slats works for sound isolation or for acoustic purpose( air gaps between the frames for breathing)
Amit,

Room modes are calculated to the cement barriers.

Super chunks are better, though Dandan is researching currently a thinner panel trap with an air gap to better control SBIR. This is a "down the road" concern, as it's not a part of the rooms shell. Stay tuned and follow posts by dandan.

Speakers as shown in the model are 6" woofers. I would feel just as comfortable with 8"s if you prefer. I think by "small" monkey was referring to not "far field" main type monitors. Desk resonance is a concern, however, your pedestal is a limitation, and as I see it, desk resonance is a worthy compromise. Just make sure there is plenty of mass between the speaker and the desk, as well as a column of mass support under the desk as well. Decouple the speaker pedestal from the desk with mouse pads, or similar foamy stuff.

The only compromises, as I see it, are that it's a touch small, and your time frame is limiting the level of expertise in your design. Following Monkey's suggestion and altering the dimensions of the cement walls is a good idea, though I wonder how MUCH better it will be in reality, considering the extra time and $ it will take to do it.

The insulation between the slat walls and the boundary walls is strictly inner room acoustics.
Old 30th March 2010
  #29
Lives for gear
how much insulation should i put in behind the frames

is there any rule of leaving air gaps between the frames. please tell me more about making these walls .(according to me studs ----- pack insulation-----frames) is it right

can u give me some link for home made diffusor( for the rear wall)

are the pink slabs on the top on both sides are for just showing slanting of ceiling and making the picture clear.
Old 30th March 2010
  #30
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga View Post
how much insulation should i put in behind the frames

is there any rule of leaving air gaps between the frames. please tell me more about making these walls .(according to me studs ----- pack insulation-----frames) is it right

can u give me some link for home made diffusor( for the rear wall)

are the pink slabs on the top on both sides are for just showing slanting of ceiling and making the picture clear.
Insulation. For any trap (this includes behind the slats) if it's over a foot thick, use standard housing wall insulation. If it's less than a foot thick, use a denser type. Rockwool, 703, are the two most commonly used. Fill all gaps behind the slats to the concrete with this.

There is most certainly a rule to the ratio of fabric covered open space to the amount of wood coverage on the walls. These two factors together with the thickness of insulation will determine at which frequency of bass your wall is most effective at trapping... as well as how broad of a cue it will trap around the center frequency. I would be more specific if I could, but this is a concept I myself am just starting to grasp. I can tell you, that it seems that finding the exact center frequency to coincide with that dimension's primary mode may not be hyper critical. I say this, as it turns out many MANY online line calculators for determining this ratio have been proven mathematically incorrect, though it wasn't discovered by unhappy implementations. As it turns out, while there is a precise way of calculating this, even in error it yields very good results. My intent is not to say "do it however" rather, that if you are off by a little, it will still work... just possibly not to it's fullest potential.

The pink areas along the top are to show that while the walls and ceiling slant towards the front, the remaining triangle of "hollow" space should still be filled with insulation... which happens to be pink. Well, here at least.

Here's a great thread on diffusors... you will need to adjust the scale obviously.

My home made diffuser
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