The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
building home studio advice needed
Old 12th May 2010
  #211
Lives for gear
email sent
sorry for delay. i was trying from last 1 hour. the internet was down.

another link

http://rapidshare.com/files/38652836...TURES.zip.html
Old 12th May 2010
  #212
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Got it Amit, thank you

The peak we see at around 63 hz. In both the length and height spectrum graphs we see the intensity diminish as you get closer to the center of that dimension. In the room mode estimation, we expected a height mode of 61.2... pretty close. Our lengths estimation was at 32.2, so again the octave of that is pretty close to the 63hz. These two planes involvement in this peak is further reinforced with no movement on the width graph. This is the first frequency I would like to try to hit. Being a two plane involvement, i will render a sketch with slats tuned around this center at the floor/front, floor/back, ceiling back, ceiling front locations.

The dip below the 63hz peak. I'm thinking part of it is involved with the primary length mode, but more so with SBIR, as it is rather consistent.

I'm pretty blown away that even at 500m/sec, there's very little decay. How long does sound last, say when you clap your hands in there?

building home studio advice needed-length-spectrum-view-1.jpg

building home studio advice needed-height-spectrum-view-1.jpg

building home studio advice needed-width-spectrum-view-1.jpg

building home studio advice needed-length-waterfall-2-20-250.jpg

We are ready when the carpenters are to fill the cavity with insulation, and fabric cover can happen at anytime when that is done. This next round of measurements will be interesting to see the waterfalls.
Old 13th May 2010
  #213
Lives for gear
Quote:
I'm pretty blown away that even at 500m/sec, there's very little decay. How long does sound last, say when you clap your hands in there?

not much decay.

insulation will be filled with in 2 days.
Old 13th May 2010
  #214
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Hi AMit.

I am away from my computers for most of the day today, but I am hoping to be able to do some renderings when I get home tonight... about 6 hours from now.

To add to my comment about being ready to insulate and fabric, I want to stress again that it's a good idea to make sure the fabric is fire ******ant before the wood goes up.

Also, before fabric goes up on the ceiling, I'd like to have an idea of where your light fixtures are. Again, it's likely there will be a good chunk of the ceiling drywalled, and installing fabric under that would be a big waste of time and money.

After the insulation is in, I would start on figuring out a listening position and speaker placement. I would do this by approximating, then measure. by moving yourself (mic) back and forth, you will see some movement in the low frequency response. readings that change with movement are what you are looking to improve on. by moving the speakers around, you will be able to adjust the response of measurements that didn't change when moving the mic. These are boundary interactions between walls and speakers. Generally speaking, the closer the speaker is to the front and side walls, the higher the frequency bump will be, but again, this is a generality, not a rule. It is after we have a listening triangle nailed down, that we can begin looking at desk construction.

I noticed last night when looking back through the thread, that the stringers in the inner shell construction were not done in a symmetrical fashion, as previously recommended. This may or may not cause some imaging issues with uneven left right reflections (minimal) and or resonant differences... not sure. If the stringers are screwed in, it may be worth the time to re do this. If they are nailed in, I wouldn't bother.

Also, in the measurement graphs there is a decided drop off below 60hz. Again this may be due to speaker boundary reaction...try moving the speakers a bit. It may be a speaker response issue, or it may be a measurement mic response. I'd like to say I'm familiar with your genre of music, but that would be a lie. Do you use a lot of sub bass? How much activity is there in frequencies below 60hz?
Old 13th May 2010
  #215
Lives for gear
Quote:
Also, before fabric goes up on the ceiling, I'd like to have an idea of where your light fixtures are
lights fixtures wood framing on the ceiling inner frame will be done tommorow morning. should i give you the picture tomorrow or should i give only wiring pictures now. i can give it within 10 minutes.

Quote:
If the stringers are screwed in, it may be worth the time to re do this. If they are nailed in, I wouldn't bother.
sorry john they are nailed. instead of going with so much details mistakes are done.


Quote:
Do you use a lot of sub bass? How much activity is there in frequencies below 60hz?
our music is pujabi music with dhol beats. sub bass was not of any importance in the past but now it is gaining importance. but we can concentrate more on above 50hz.
Old 13th May 2010
  #216
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

tomorrow is fine, I will be concentrating on slat spacing tonight. also with the pictures, if you can provide measurements to the electrical boxes that will be helpful.

during the acoustic measurements as described in my last few posts, there may be some down time before the carpenters have work. I'd imagine that since your wood comes raw, they will have plenty to occupy themselves with in shaping the slats, but it is worth mentioning that any stain or paint you plan to do to the slats needs to be done before installation... what with the fabric and all. This is primarily a "looks" decision, but keep in mind that the thicker glossy type finishes will reflect a bit more high frequencies than more of a rough type look. Not saying either is better or worse.

Out of curiousity, what color fabric have you decided on, and what wood color are you thinking? I would like to take these looks into account for the rest of the sketches.
Old 13th May 2010
  #217
Lives for gear
Quote:
also with the pictures, if you can provide measurements to the electrical boxes that will be helpful.
definitely

Quote:
what color fabric have you decided on, and what wood color are you thinking?
i am thinking of naural wood color(may be without polish). dark coffee color will make room size shorter visually (guess only). what do you think

as regarding cloth i am thinking of using maroon(redish) color's cheap cotton breathable cloth for full inner shell covering as the insulation needs to be covered, and using maroon color's expensive cloth with holes in it at the reflection points and other visual points.(for good looks)

sorry for showing other people control rooms but just for wood color
building home studio advice needed-adobe_control_1.jpg

building home studio advice needed-control_room-1.jpg

building home studio advice needed-control_roomss.jpg
Old 13th May 2010
  #218
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

sorry, but i'm confused.

you say expensive fabric with holes in it...

i'm understanding that this is more of a woven pattern type fabric, with large holes... is this to be placed over the other fabric, in order to add depth?

if so, I love the idea.

i too like the idea of a natural wood finish, though you may want to put like a tung oil on it. it will bring out the contrast in the grain pattern a bit, but still allow the wood to breathe, and not get too bright sounding. try a sample.

one more thing. I just want to verify that the front and back inner shell walls indeed turned out to be 1' from the boundary walls as in the plan. This distance is critical in slat spacing math.
Old 13th May 2010
  #219
Lives for gear
Quote:
is this to be placed over the other fabric, in order to add depth?

yes this is to be placed over the other fabric. holes in it are not very large but easily seen and breathable

Quote:
I just want to verify that the front and back inner shell walls indeed turned out to be 1' from the boundary walls as in the plan. This distance is critical in slat spacing math.
FRONT WALL GAP 1'

BACK WALL GAP 1'1"
Old 14th May 2010
  #220
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Amit.

It occurs to me that the areas in which I had previously mentioned to start with slats to hit the 63hz peak... these are also areas we may want to utilize to hit something lower. Something that may, after insulating, pose a larger problem. We have good base line measurements of the starting point, but designing around an empty room problem may be a bit premature.

I'm attaching a rendering of just the fabric for now, as well as the sketch of that shell if it's not too large

whole ceiling will not be covered in fabric, waiting to see tomorrow's photos.

for ceiling fixtures, are you planning fans, or track lights, or...?
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-amit-fabric.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: skp amit fabric.skp (646.8 KB, 50 views)
Old 14th May 2010
  #221
Lives for gear
Quote:
for ceiling fixtures, are you planning fans, or track lights, or...?
just total 3 track lights. Two on the back of ceiling and one on the front ceiling targeting on the desk
Old 14th May 2010
  #222
Lives for gear
hi john

carpenters again are on holiday today. so i have marked the exact three electrical lighting fixtures guide points on the ceiling. i have deleted one stud for easy visualization.

elec guide points.skp
Old 14th May 2010
  #223
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

I am going to work on the ceiling layout today.

It would be a good idea to have drywall installed on it before fabric goes up... cut down on mess. Few things:

Is drywall common practice there, or is plaster?

All three fixtures are to be track lighting... do you have links of what you want to use, so I can see how to place and size them?
Old 14th May 2010
  #224
Lives for gear
Quote:
Is drywall common practice there, or is plaster?
does drywall means layering mdf sheet over the ceiling frames ?

if yes drywall will be ok.


Quote:
All three fixtures are to be track lighting... do you have links of what you want to use, so I can see how to place and size them?
the nearby design
building home studio advice needed-light-fixture.jpg
Old 14th May 2010
  #225
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

drywall refers to what is standard wall and ceiling construction in homes. Here it is drywall, or sheetrock, or gypsum board... all names for the same thing. 50 or so years ago, walls were done with plaster and lat... thin strips of wood with plaster troweled over it.

Mdf would work as well

lighting... i see, so you are planning what we would call "can" or recessed lights. For the front, I like this idea, but for the back, do you have access to products like this:

Progress Lighting P616109WB Directionals Complete Track Kit Track Ligh

It's your room, obviously, but having two of these at the back of the room would give you quite a bit more coverage, and you can aim the fixtures to highlight features of the room.

either way, the lighting you have chosen requires very little room for mounting, I will render a version with the track lights, and one with the cans so you can visualize
Old 14th May 2010
  #226
Lives for gear
Quote:
I will render a version with the track lights, and one with the cans so you can visualize
THANKS

Quote:
Mdf would work as well
i have option of mdf, plywood and i can try for gypsum board. please tell in order of importance which should i opt for?
Old 14th May 2010
  #227
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga View Post
THANKS



i have option of mdf, plywood and i can try for gypsum board. please tell in order of importance which should i opt for?
well, if an entire room were to be made of mdf, that type of wall covering would be very dense, and not allow as much bass trapping. In the limited quantities we will be using I don't know that there is much advantage of gypsum over mdf. being that both come in 4' x 8' sheets, there won't be any need to use seams... another advantage of gypsum. so, mdf will be fine. Plywood has an irregular surface, and would not look as nice as either of the other two options.

i would use which ever is more affordable...mdf or gypsum
Old 14th May 2010
  #228
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Hi Amit.

Here are a few sketches. All slats are 4" wide, and gaps are .5" wide. Tuning is impossible, as this ceiling is at an angle to the boundary, the frequency will change along the entire length. Front of room is fabric only, but trim over studs where there will be staples. At the back of the room, I left a few of the joints "butt" joints. These would be easier for the carpenter, but clearly the "miter" joints at the front of the room are more attractive. This is something you can discuss with the carpenters.

I show two angles of the track light option, mostly because with can lights, the second angle is not necessary, as there's nothing to see.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-amit-ceiling-cans.jpg   building home studio advice needed-amit-ceiling-track.jpg   building home studio advice needed-amit-ceiling-track2.jpg  
Old 14th May 2010
  #229
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

based on the slats as rendered in the last post, some short boards between the ceiling joists would be needed to support where some of the slats end. This should be straight forward for the carpenter.
Old 15th May 2010
  #230
Lives for gear
hi john

in spite of seeing the pictures so many times i am not getting into it. i am sorry for that. i am a bit confused. how much area is dry walled and how much is fabric. is the area above track light is drywall? this is complete ceiling or more slats are to be placed. at what dimensions are the slats placed. the four slats between the two track lights are over fabric.


Quote:
It would be a good idea to have drywall installed on it before fabric goes up
i am also not cleared with this point. fabric will be over drywall?


please can you post sketchup file to me.(after insulation-->fabric)

can we have one track light instead of two as shown in middle picture of post 217
Old 15th May 2010
  #231
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Hi Amit.

What you see in the picture:

THe red area is the front of the room, the pure absorption with fabric over it. THe thin wood strips over that are a trim to cover the staples that attach the fabric.

There is a border of slats around the perimeter.

The white areas are a solid ceiling surface. THis can be drywall or mdf, no fabric under it. I did this for a few reasons. It's a cost cutting measure, to not have to install so much fabric or wood. There will still be a great deal of wood on the walls. Also, I wanted to have a very light color on the ceiling, to hopefully make the room feel brighter.

THe images you see are not done in a manner that a skecthup file would be of any more help in understanding... this was a very simple first step to help illustrate my idea. I didn't want to take it too far until I knew it was something you like. Just incase changes needed to be made. Good thing, as it seems you would rather have a single track light in the back half? This is fine. Good to know this now.

Unfortunately, The sketch file I created this with is on my work computer. I am some 2 hours away from that location this weekend. I will, after we communicate some ideas together this weekend, render a new version with a single light on Monday. Would you also rather see more slats on the ceiling instead of the solid mdf or drywall?

Hang in there friend.
Old 16th May 2010
  #232
Lives for gear
hi john

after seeing the pictures my curiosity enforced me to have every information in a moment. everything is good with time.


Quote:
Would you also rather see more slats on the ceiling instead of the solid mdf or drywall?
whatever is good technically and or aesthetically according to you. cost do matters but these decisions are one time decisions. i have to manage for that. one thing more that we are not always lucky to have people like you.
Old 16th May 2010
  #233
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Glad it makes sense now. Are you still wanting to see a version with a single track light at the rear?

My initial concerns regarding installing the drywall before the fabric goes up... this really isn't a problem. the drywall (or mdf) that is in the picture is less than a single sheet size. THe mess that worried me was the taping, mudding, sanding step. I didn't want to get that dust into your fabric. Because the area is a single sheet, we won't have any of that mess. ALso, the edges of drywall are brittle and crumbly. I would lean towards the use of mdf, as the edges would have a cleaner look.

Regarding more slats versus solid surface. We are at an area of the ceiling where the depth isn't too great. By forgoing slats here, we aren't losing much acoustically. In fact, the area is still to be insulated, and there is a perimeter of slats around it, so I suspect there should still be a good amount of trapping up there, and possibly at a lower frequency than we could achieve than with just slats. My logic behind this decision isn't only budget, but to me, if the whole ceiling were to be slats, I feel it would look more club house-ish. If that makes sense. Too much... need a different surface to add visual interest.
Old 16th May 2010
  #234
Lives for gear
Quote:
Glad it makes sense now. Are you still wanting to see a version with a single track light at the rear?
yes, respectfully


Quote:
I would lean towards the use of mdf, as the edges would have a cleaner look.
fine

PROGRESS REPORT

insulation is on the way. may be completed by tomorrow. i will post the pictures after the insulation
Old 16th May 2010
  #235
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

fantastic. can't wait to see what the measurements look like with insulation.

i will draw that new ceiling for you first thing on Monday.
Old 17th May 2010
  #236
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Hi Amit,

Here is a quick version with a single track light at the rear. I've attached a few angles for you. Let me know what you think, and please don't hesitate to speak up if you don't like it. This part of design is easy, and I will do it until you are happy.

If we go this route, the electrician would need to modify their setup for a single fixture instead of two. Currently, I have the single track contained within the same joist cavity that the two lights were in previously.

One area of question that could have been interpreted one of two ways by the carpenters. On my original sketch, there was a flat area of the ceiling at the very back of the room. In these new ceiling drawings, it would be occupied by the 4 slats at the very back edge of the ceiling. This happened without my knowledge, when I re-drew the back wall with the new corner bass trap angles. Just wondering what actually happened with real world construction in this area. There's no preference one way or the other.

It's to be understood at this point that sketch model's measurements must be not taken as exact. Real world construction may have changed dimensions to certain degrees. Sketches should be used as a guide, and actual framing should be measured for exact cuts. I will highlight my opinions as to order of installations as much as I can, but we must lean on the carpenters to some degree to make sure measurements are accurate. Make sense?

Looking forward to hearing your opinion on the new drawing.

Oh, I forgot to add a trim piece in the fabric cloud on the back and side drawings, but it is there on the overview.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-amit-single-light-back.jpg   building home studio advice needed-amit-single-light-side.jpg   building home studio advice needed-amit-single-light-over.jpg  
Old 17th May 2010
  #237
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Another question has been nagging me.

Here, lumber is purchased to dimension. Being that your lumber is delivered in essentially logs, and cut to dimension on site, I am wondering how much shrinkage we should expect? When wood dries, it shrinks. How long are these rough timbres dried before the are sent out to the job site? This could come heavily into play as we attempt to tune the gaps between slats. Your carpenters should have an idea of what happens to the dimensions of the wood after it has been cut and dries out.
Old 17th May 2010
  #238
Lives for gear
hi john

regarding track light new drawing

i liked it very much

Quote:
I am wondering how much shrinkage we should expect?
i will talk with carpenters and make sure that the final size comes out to be
3/4"x4"

Quote:
One area of question that could have been interpreted one of two ways by the carpenters. On my original sketch, there was a flat area of the ceiling at the very back of the room. In these new ceiling drawings, it would be occupied by the 4 slats at the very back edge of the ceiling. This happened without my knowledge, when I re-drew the back wall with the new corner bass trap angles. Just wondering what actually happened with real world construction in this area.
yes the back part of the ceiling is a little bit changed as per the plan. but i will make sure that the carpenters will move with accuracy according to the measurements guided by you. i will post the picture of ceiling

insulation is not yet completed. but i will post pictures in a few minutes

i have purchased the cloth but the cloth i was looking for was not available in maroon color. so i have got brown color cloth. anyhow this is the cloth only for covering the insulation which will be occupied by slats or another cloth (maroon color)at first reflection and other visible points
Old 17th May 2010
  #239
Lives for gear
 
johndykstra's Avatar
 

Amit, see attachment.

I'm working on some starting points for measurements to determine a listening position.

You will see to sets of measurements on the drawing.

The 3' 5 1/4" distance from the inner wall represents 25% of the total rooms length. This is a distance from the front wall deemed to be worst case acoustically.

The 5' 8 3/8" distance would be 38% of the total room length, as is commonly viewed as a good starting point.

I would take acoustic measurements at these two distances, and a number of locations in between the two. We want to be somewhere in there.

This is also a good time to start discussing your work flow. How much out board gear do you use? Is a midi controller or mixer generally in front of you, or both?

For these initial listening position measurements, just place the speakers in a logical looking normal triangle, and have both on during measurement. We will fine tune the triangle after a listening location has been set.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-listening-distance.jpg  
Old 17th May 2010
  #240
Lives for gear
some pictures

building home studio advice needed-corner-bass-trap-left-wall.jpg corner bass trap

building home studio advice needed-corner-bass-trap-right-wall.jpg corner bass trap

building home studio advice needed-full-room-view.jpg

building home studio advice needed-room-view-1.jpg

building home studio advice needed-room-view-2.jpg
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
ukmikey / Music Computers
9
sharplikecheddar / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
1
Saxtrack / So much gear, so little time
8

Forum Jump
Forum Jump