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building home studio advice needed
Old 2nd April 2010
  #61
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I used monkey's suggestions of:

"Just to add to your work - I've figured out the best room ratio that will suit the actual room size. It's first Louden: H: 281,5 cm W 394cm L:535cm."

I did not figure the added 1.2" to the flooring pre framing. THe interior of the room composes such a large percentage of the floor space, that it seemed rediculous to put flooring in before the walls go up.

Keep in mind, that good ratios are only become great ratios if there's no interference. Because of the pedestal in the corner, not to mention the support rafter, I feel as though bringing the dimensions into exact tolerance is a bit optimistic, and frankly overkill.

This is why I suggested the overlooking the 1/2" ply on the front wall. But again, this is your call. IF you do install that ply, it's going to need to be very coupled. lots of construction adhesive, lots of concrete anchors. lots of headaches.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #62
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hi john

this is your plan and your room. do anything to it. i am just waiting for your steps.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #63
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whoa.

slow down.

it's your room.

it's your money.

i'm glad to help.

were you able to open and read the file of the room i sent you yet?

regarding the slat wall resonators:

based on what I've read, designs I've seen are a constant volume behind the slats... typically no more than the thickness of the stud cavity itself. If we were to say, add a layer of covering material to the back sides of our studs, this would make calculating the slat % much easier, but... it would mess everything up. few reasons: our room modes would be that of the angled walls... not good. also, we would lose all of that valuable area for bass trapping.

our slat walls have a consistantly varying depth, and the entire cavity packed to the gills with insulation.

in a slat wall resonator, the more insulation packed into the cavity, the broader the "q" of absorption... meaning it absorbs more frequencies around the target design. our walls, particularly at the front of the room, due to depth, should be quite broadband in nature... given the depth of insulation. I am in no way finished researching this subject, but for now, here is my idea.

Ideally, we will want to acoustically measure the space after the boundary wall adjustments have been made. Based on what we know about estimating room modes, we can look at the actual readings, and find the actual modes corresponding to given axis. There will be a particular fundamental mode created by the width of the room. This is our target frequency for the slat side walls. Using that target frequency, we find the % of wood to gap to hit that frequency at the back of the room, where the cavity is quite narrow. Then we find the target % of wood to gap at the front of the room, where the cavity is rather thick. Because both the slat wall and boundary wall are straight, the relationship of the two percentages should be linear and the relationship should remain that way as we move along the wall. I suggest we use only vertical slats. (we will need to attach horizontal sleepers along the face of the wall, a means by which to attach vertical planks.) As we move along the wall, we adjust the gapping to maintain a relationship to the target mode. Again, as we approach the front of the room, our walls become increasingly broadband in nature.

Repeat this math for the ceiling.

The front wall trap will be easy, as it's cavity depth is a constant.

The back wall trap is to be broadband... that's to say, no slats... for now. I plan to do some ray tracings to determine how long it will take the earliest reflections from the back wall to reach the mix position. I doubt it's over 20 msec, but if it is, we have the opportunity to slat that wall as well. This is a design feature we have some amount of time to get to.

I'm gonna try to find the time to render the ceiling framing today, but my plate here at home has some stuff on it.

time to go get to that.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #64
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yes i was able to open the file.

how much gap will be there between the rear wall(angled room's rear wall) both corner studs and the walls. is this gap equal on both sides.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #65
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yes the gap is equal.

open the file and use the tape measure tool, all questions will be answered.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #66
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i was using just sketch up viewer. i couldn't find the tape measure tool now i am downloading sketch up full version


surprised with tape measurement tool
Old 2nd April 2010
  #67
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ceiling framed.

man that SUCKED!

multiple acute angles sketchup does not like.

I'm no carpenter, but if I were to be building this, I would build the ceiling first, and suspend it from anchors in the cement ceiling... up above where the walls go. Once walls are built, you can then lower the ceiling down onto the wall framing.

I've tried building a ceiling on top of existing walls with very little room, and it was a bear or a time.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-amit-framing.jpg  
Old 2nd April 2010
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga View Post

surprised with tape measurement tool
what do you mean?
Old 3rd April 2010
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
what do you mean?
i was using only sketch up viewer. so i was not aware of this tool and its accuracy.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
ceiling framed.

man that SUCKED!

multiple acute angles sketchup does not like.

I'm no carpenter, but if I were to be building this, I would build the ceiling first, and suspend it from anchors in the cement ceiling... up above where the walls go. Once walls are built, you can then lower the ceiling down onto the wall framing.

I've tried building a ceiling on top of existing walls with very little room, and it was a bear or a time.
should i leave this to carpenter whether to build ceiling or walls first.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga View Post
should i leave this to carpenter whether to build ceiling or walls first.
absolutely. show him full plans. we have "snapshots" I've been posting along the way, but also, being that you have the files, you can zoom in on whatever, measure it, and they shouldn't even need to work off of angles, rather front and back measurements and set their miters at 6 degrees. Good stuff. THe variance from the drawing will come when an actual carpenter determines the stud spacing, do corners really need to be double studded, is there a stud on the inside corner of the room so we have a finish wall attach point... you know, carpenter stuff. Again, so far the design is going to call for horizontal sleepers along the front of the studs. THis will give us an attach point for vertical slats. This makes stringers unnecessary I'd think... on the side walls and ceiling. Still want stringers in the front and back.

If you'll notice on the file, the ceiling is a single component. you can click on it, grab it and pull it out of the way. Same thing with the wall structure...it's a single item as well. I will be doing this with every step, so the file is more user friendly in the end.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #72
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received the file thanks
Old 3rd April 2010
  #73
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Ran John's awesome excel calc on your modes, now that I'm actually on a machine with excel.

First axial length mode = 32.2hz

First axial width mode = 43.7hz

First axial height mode = 61.2hz

Room has 2095 cu. ft... well above the recommended minimum of 1500

It's the Bonello distribution where we really start to shine here. mode density per octave

band
16 20 25 31.5 40 50 63 80 100 125 160 200 250
actual
0 1 1 1 2 6 6 12 27 45 89 138 210
ideal
0 1 1 1 2 6 6 12 27 45 89 138

when the actual falls above ideal for a given column, this means there are enough modes to "smooth" the response. This is a good thing.

Being that your room is concrete, the RT60 of the room is going to be very bass heavy, meaning that in a drywall room, the walls themselves act as bass traps, and much of the rooms natural decay is low-mid to mid heavy. In such a dense walled room such as yours, the concrete reflects much of the bass, and the room's decay tends to be more bass concentrated.

This is why having slat walls tuned to the lowest supported mode of that axis is so important, and the numbers above are ONLY AN ESTIMATION by which to compare ACTUAL acoustic measurements.

This is a practice I would start to familiarize myself with if I were you. There's a bit of a learning curve, and I'd imagine you don't want to hold up your carpenter between boundary and shell construction. Download a measurement platform and start familiarizing now. There's an excellent thread:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studi...primer-v2.html

dedicated to the learning and interpreting of this type of thing.

this is an important step, as the estimates are only a jumping off point. if this design is to live up to potential, actual readings must be taken.
Old 3rd April 2010
  #74
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what is the current condition of your floor?

is it level?

I'm wondering if we should start with an 1" of self leveling concrete for a good stable, level, and much closer to mode ratio floor. this would allow you to use a laminate wood floor... (i'd say they're close to .2" thick.)

also, i've been wondering about that pedestal. if you knock on it, does it resonate? About how thick is this thing?
Old 3rd April 2010
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
This is why having slat walls tuned to the lowest supported mode of that axis is so important, and the numbers above are ONLY AN ESTIMATION by which to compare ACTUAL acoustic measurements.
Yeah, and if it turns out the walls don't treat the proper frequency (likely,
I'd say) you have to tear them down and start over. I'd stay away from
resonators if I didn't have a lot of prior experience with how they turn out.

Paul P
Old 3rd April 2010
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulP View Post
Yeah, and if it turns out the walls don't treat the proper frequency (likely,
I'd say) you have to tear them down and start over. I'd stay away from
resonators if I didn't have a lot of prior experience with how they turn out.

Paul P
Gee Paul, thanks for the vote of confidence.heh What makes you think we're on the wrong track here? Worst case scenario, we don't have a sealed volume, and the insulation to the boundaries behave more as broadband traps with wood slats in front to reintroduce some liveliness back into the room. Not a bad worst case I think. I'm trying to figure a way to separate the ceiling and wall volume, and reading my arse of to learn if this is necessary.

There's much time available for research before we get to this step.
Old 4th April 2010
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Gee Paul, thanks for the vote of confidence.heh
Hey John, what worries me is that I don't believe you've ever done this sort
of thing before so I think a bit of caution is in order. If it were your studio
I'd be cheering you on from the sidelines but it's not. I think amit monga
should be aware that s/he is going very quickly into uncharted territory.

If amit monga was dealing with a professional, that person would no doubt
supply a target response for the room and if it didn't meet it the professional
would be responsible for making it right. What if amit monga's room doesn't
perform as expected ? Is it even known what is expected ?

Paul P
Old 4th April 2010
  #78
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I think I've supplied ample amounts of warning. Amit has stated that (s)he wants to start building in a matter of weeks. Aside from monkey, no one else has shown any interest in helping. There's a TON of views on this thread, and I've made it clear that we would appreciate it if someone sees something wrong with the plan, to please vocalize it.

Again, there's time to decide on effectiveness of slats. If construction were to start tomorrow on the slats, I'd say screw it, let's just drywall the majority of the splayed surface, leave the corners, back wall, and first reflections breathable and call it a day. I don't think, if you read back, that I've claimed to know how to implement this correctly yet... only that I'm researching it and asked Amit to as well.

The interior shell of the room has many possibilites. Slats are just the coolest option.
Old 4th April 2010
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I think I've supplied ample amounts of warning. Amit has stated that (s)he wants to start building in a matter of weeks. Aside from monkey, no one else has shown any interest in helping. There's a TON of views on this thread, and I've made it clear that we would appreciate it if someone sees something wrong with the plan, to please vocalize it.
I don't think I've been alone in not wanting to get involved . Personally, I
feel I now know enough about acoustics to realize that I know very little,
especially in a practical sense, so I'm not about to make any suggestions.

As long as amit monga realizes that this is an experiment which may turn out
well, and may not, I don't see a problem. If I was discussing work on your
place or mine it would be clear that we were trying things out and we'd be
prepared to start over if necessary. I haven't gotten that impression from
amit monga but I may be wrong.

And I'm sorry amit monga for maybe pouring water on your parade but I
felt it necessary to express my unease at how fast things were moving.

I guess today is my day for being a critic.

Paul P
Old 4th April 2010
  #80
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hi john,

i have read mr. paulp comments. he may be right in his point of view. but if i had to plan this room i would had corrected room's measurements according to one of the room ratios(after some reading), keep desk without utilizing the pedestal , all corner bass panel traps(no superchunks), 2" absorption panels at first reflection points. that's all . i was also planning for cabin which would be definitely a wrong decision. i know and understand my limits and i know that you are definitely better than me in terms of acoustic knowledge. so if in any case the room does not sound as expected, it will definitely sound better than it would have sounded with my knowledge. that's all i need. so you will and can never be responsible for anything. that is why i called it yours room as u are working on it as it is your room.

floor is cemented and well leveled. i will make sure that the measurements of the room will be strictly according to the given measurements that is H: 281,5 cm W 394cm L:535cm


hi paulp,

it is good for being a critic. but it is not good for not giving suggestions especially in this forum. you also must had taken help from someone. you are in this forum means that you are here for sharing knowledge. so please keep suggesting. please give a view to mr. john's plan if you can find something to change.
Old 4th April 2010
  #81
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hi john

electricity wiring has been done before the plan. the wires coming out from the points are short and couldn't reach the second room's(angled room) outside edges. so is it ok to make joints in wiring or should it be done again. there would be no problem in doing wiring again.
Old 4th April 2010
  #82
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Amit,

Thank you for your vote of confidence, but in reality, it is a good thing that Paul said what he said. I have along the course of this design attempted to tell you, in so many words, that this is the first time I have attempted a slat wall room. I've made it clear that I would like you to research it along with me, and bolded out as much as I could to make you aware of this fact. If indeed Paul is right, and there's a group of experts watching along, and "not wanting to speak up", hopefully Paul has opened the gates, and there will be an open discussion by multiple people in an attempt to get you the best room we can in the limited time frame you presented. I am not doing this for the "glory". I would very much welcome the ideas and help from as many people as possible. You stating you don't hold me accountable is very nice, though I will feel as accountable as someone across the world can.

Paul,

I don't think slat walls are as complicated and precise as you may believe. They've been implemented 1000's of times in studios all around the world. Remember, up until (i don't know, a year?) ago, many of the calculators online and even in some text books were off! What happened? Did thousands of people rip out their slat walls because they were ineffective? I don't think so... I think there's a lot of not exactly efficient but still functioning slat walls out there. Take away the resonant cavity for a moment. You still have a large amount of insulation exposed to air pressure. Let's assume what I'm designing doesn't resonate at all, then behind these slats, there's nothing but broadband traps.

Now, the cavities behind the slats are sealed (maybe), and they do resonate(likely, but to what degree). I plan (so far) to design the depth of the cavity as the distance from the slat to the cement wall behind it. Slot width, slat width, throat length, will all be taken into consideration in an attempt to hit the target frequency. As the depth of the "trap" changes due to the canted wall, so will the relationship to the math... thus my design switch to that of vertical slats. The only thing I can't yet take into consideration to the math is that the volume from walls and ceiling is shared.

But tell me, if the calculators have been supplying wrong math for this long, wouldn't you say there's a pretty good chance this functions well?

I mean, resonation aside, it's still a cavity packed with bass trapping. It's not magical, it will absorb what hits it. May it's optimization be off? Sure. That doesn't mean it's going to suck all of that wrong frequency out of a room that doesn't need that frequency trapped. And in doing so, that also doesn't mean that it's "trapping capabilities" are exhausted from all that wasted trapping, so there's no way it has the energy to trap anything else.

That's also not to say, that during ratio wall construction, possible floor pouring, inner shell framing, that I'm not going to be over here, doing my best to make sure that the math we use on the slats is as accurate as possible.

Everyone,

Amit may not be aware of the elephant in the room here... if there is one. This is certainly not secret information.

Yes, within the next year or so, I am finishing... well starting... my control room, which heavily uses slat walls in it's design:

Control room build: modes, soffits, slat walls, etc.

All that means, is that I was already planning on doing a ton of reading on slat walls, for personal gain. Am I curious to see how my ideas turn out? You beatcha. Had I hoped that I've developed a relationship with a good sized group of you guys over the last few years that would make you feel as though you would want speak up... ?


For the sake of the time frame, can we please take the criticism out of the intangible, and PLEASE, if anyone sees an error, I'm not too proud or foolish to admit I'm wrong.

-John
Old 4th April 2010
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga View Post
it is good for being a critic. but it is not good for not giving suggestions especially in this forum. you also must had taken help from someone. you are in this forum means that you are here for sharing knowledge. so please keep suggesting. please give a view to mr. john's plan if you can find something to change.
I'm sorry amit monga but I do not have the experience to help you. Like
you I'm currently designing my own space. I've now spent several hours a
day for seven months studying acoustics so I'm beginning to get a rough
idea of what's involved. I'm not in any hurry as all my tools are currently
packed in boxes following a move but even if this weren't the case I'd be
taking my time planning things out beforehand.

One thing I've noticed is that a lot of recommendations are not backed up
by any facts. Countless people go ahead and build something on a casual
suggestion without first taking the time to define what their needs really
are. How many times have we seen people go ahead and build bass traps
or diffusors without having any idea of what effect they'll have, if they'll
even be useful.

I won't bother you any more. I hadn't intended to until you and John
started talking about slot resonators which are slightly more complex
than plain walls.

Paul P
Old 4th April 2010
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amit monga View Post
hi john

electricity wiring has been done before the plan. the wires coming out from the points are short and couldn't reach the second room's(angled room) outside edges. so is it ok to make joints in wiring or should it be done again. there would be no problem in doing wiring again.
In terms of code, what's legal, over here, I think that is a no no. In India, things may be different. Check with a local electrician.

Were I you, I'd want a dedicated circuit for lighting. Not only ceiling fixtures, but also a few outlets sprinkled throughout the room on that circuit as well for floor and table lamps. From experience I will say it is a good idea to make these outlets a different color than your gear outlets, as you always think you'll remember which ones are which, but I never do. Also, at LEAST two circuits dedicated for your studio gear. This hinges on how much outboard gear you see yourself using in the future, but planning ahead is a lot cheaper than retrofitting.
Old 4th April 2010
  #85
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suppose if the slot resonators wall does not hit the correct frequency or does not work properly, is there some negative point in this as compared to plain walls. will the slot resonator wall work as normal wall in that case. if yes then also i want to go for it as this wall gives very stylish look
Old 4th April 2010
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I don't think slat walls are as complicated and precise as you may believe. They've been implemented 1000's of times in studios all around the world.
The ones in serious studios were probably done by professionals who had
prior experience. As for hobbiests and basement musicians, how many of
them even know what their walls are doing ?

Quote:
Remember, up until (i don't know, a year?) ago, many of the calculators online and even in some text books were off! What happened? Did thousands of people rip out their slat walls because they were ineffective?
How many of them have actually measured their rooms to find out ?

Quote:
I think there's a lot of not exactly efficient but still functioning slat walls out there. Take away the resonant cavity for a moment. You still have a large amount of insulation exposed to air pressure. Let's assume what I'm designing doesn't resonate at all, then behind these slats, there's nothing but broadband traps.
That's fine. I have no trouble with wood stats being installed over absorption
for decorative purposes. I also like the look and it could add some liveliness
to a room (but how much ?).

Quote:
But tell me, if the calculators have been supplying wrong math for this long, wouldn't you say there's a pretty good chance this functions well?
That the calculators and books were in error isn't encouraging and it's
quite possible that in a lot of installations the walls aren't doing anything
at all. Worse, they may be resonating at a frequency that wasn't a problem
in the first place.

You've been more than civil John in your response to my intrusion and I
appreciate it.

Paul P
Old 4th April 2010
  #87
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hi john

so finally are we going for slat walls
Old 4th April 2010
  #88
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Wow.

I was replying for so long, it kicked me off the server, and the message is gone.

Allow me to be a bit more succinct this time.

Paul, your discontent is more than welcomed. The more the better, so long as it remains of a constructive manner, and the sooner the better, as Amit is quite gung ho on a quick build. (i maintain my stance that this is a BAD IDEA.)

Regarding the difference to plain walls. The slots (space between slats) is allowing air pressure to enter the wall cavity unaffected, thus taming the liveliness of the room, as compared to straight sheetrock. The slanting of these walls also directs more reflections to the back wall (currently at least 1' thick broadband).

The resonance of the slats is dampened by the insulation. any resonance from them should be tamed. The resonance of the cavity is well... i don't know. I mean, no attempts have been made to seal it off, so it seems to me that the cavity is the room, which is to say, it would resonate the same, either way.

After so reading, it seems to me, that the tuning of slat walls is based on: slat width and depth, slot width, and cavity depth. sound is restricted by the surface math, travels through the depth, and back through the surface math. I'm lead to believe this, as from the articles I've read, there is no mention of trap height... this would seem to me to be critical, were the volume to be hyper critical. I've thus far equated trap volume to that of the amount of dampening material... which is to say in broadening the cue.

Now, this is based on intuition, which Andre has taught me to often be incorrect. If this is the case, it's possible to frame the ceiling beyond the slat walls... all the way to the boundary. Create an actual leaf on ceiling within the trap cavity and seal it. Do the same for the walls as well. This would be a tedious process, but would create a measurable sealed volume.

I think that covers my thoughts.

Amit, I think at this point, creating the mode wall, and working out what should be done with the 1.2" on the floor are a good place to start. Get the electrical and hvac squared.

We need time to finalize the design of the inner shell.

Have you started research on acoustic room measurement yet?
Old 4th April 2010
  #89
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ok

lets now concentrate only on modes which is our 1st step. only this step will take a few days. up till then we can finalize everything.

i wanted to clear one thing as we are treating right side wall for attaining particular width, why are we not treating both side walls in proportion so that resulted measurement will be same
Old 4th April 2010
  #90
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what about the floor question I raised a few posts back?
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