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building home studio advice needed
Old 30th March 2010
  #31
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you are very good. if everything goes right you will see your plan in implementation.
Old 30th March 2010
  #32
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Amit,

Make no mistakes, I'm a hack. What you see are blanket principles drawn in a fancy way.

The ray tracing issue still needs addressing

Hvac isn't even in consideration

Room modes were never accounted for, and once they are addressed, those slats aren't going to ratio themselves. This is an area I would start researching heavily were I you.
Old 30th March 2010
  #33
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A secondary steeper angle would alleviate the 90 degree dispersion reflection. Same would likely need to be done on the ceiling. Hopefully monkey will chime in as to whether the room mode adjustments to the boundary walls is as critical as it is intensive. This computer I am on doesn't have excel, so I can't use John's awesome calculator.

After modes as well as hvac are addressed, I'll mock up a less visual but more dimension heavy sketch.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-dual-angle-side-wall.jpg  
Old 31st March 2010
  #34
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hi dyk

as per hvac is concerned i am going to put split ac on the right side wall. yes ducting will be done but for exhaust fans (inlet and outlet on the room's rear wall) going from small room towards the small room's entry. i will post pictures soon. as there will be no live recording we can switch on the exhausts for sometime in between our work(fresh air circulation) .

for making room as per with the recommended ratios instead of doing roof 3 cm downwards i can make wooden floor 3 cm upwards.

frankly speaking i don't understand this ray tracing issue and how to implement it in the room. i only understand mirror technique and treating first reflection points with absorption.
Old 31st March 2010
  #35
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Ok.

In my last picture, you notice the green strip going to the right wall of your room. On the left. The room that is doubled and pasted next to that room shows where the reflection will go, but from the opposite side. Since the room is symmetrical, the reflections are the same for both left and right.

Since the reflection of the green stripe shoots out in back of the listening area, it need not be absorbed, rather allowed to travel to the back of the room where it will be diffused. This should make for a more lively enjoyable space to mix in.

In terms of the "mirror" technique, if you were to place a mirror on that slanted wall, you should not be able to see the speakers, so absorption is not needed.

The 5 degree slanting of the walls and ceiling in the original plan are merely an effort to prevent flutter echo between the planes. 5 degrees is accepted as the minimum angle amount to control flutter. The secondary steeper angle is the avoidance of reflections at your chair. For what it's worth, I tinkered with the 5 degree single angle wall, increasing the angle, and was unable to create a ray tracing that would make for a proper bounce, it's not surprising, as most pro rooms you see that employ a non absorber reflection free zone have this sort of "barn roof-line" shape to their front half. In order to do it, two angles must be used.

This secondary steeper angle isn't necessary, you could simply remove slats from the first reflection portions on the original 5 degree walls (and ceiling), in essence creating first reflection absorbers. This option would certainly cost less money, as wall geometry is more simple, not to mention you are buying less slat wood material.
Old 31st March 2010
  #36
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I was hoping if I super imposed all the info onto one room it'd make more sense.

Blue shows direct left signal

Dark blue is left speaker reflection

Red shows direct right signal

Dark red is right speaker reflection

Light purple shows area of combination of left and right direct... sweet spot

Dark purple shows area of direct signal combined with reflection
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-amitrfz.jpg  
Old 31st March 2010
  #37
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I think some work needs to be done to maximize the sweet spot, I will play with some different speaker angles and distances.

But first, do you want the secondary more $ angle, or would you rather utilize absorption?

Also, improving the ratio on the height and length planes are simple, as it's a matter of cm, we can simple fasten plywood to the concrete (with vapor barrier of course). It's the width correction that will be pricey, as this will need to be a wall, and a massive one at that. If you plan to make the ratio improvements, it only makes sense to do it to all three.

What say you?

After you decide on these two elements, I will begin the measurement drawings.
Old 31st March 2010
  #38
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cleared (ray tracing)
Old 31st March 2010
  #39
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Oh, one more thing.

door size and distance from corner
Old 31st March 2010
  #40
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I should also point out,

that after HVAC, electrical, framing, insulation, slat timber, desk surface & support/rack, LABOR, it's likely that $2000 won't cover it. I'm not real good at estimating, but I'm guessing without labor, it'd be TIGHT... depending on how extravagant you get with HVAC and lighting.
Old 31st March 2010
  #41
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door size 6'8" by 3'6"

distance from corner 2'11"


i am thinking of making walls with single angle that is 5 degree and not removing the slats at first reflection points. instead i want to hang angled panels on both sides which will serve the same purpose as angled wall. the difference will only be the angled panels will be hanged after the placement of speakers and calculating the first reflection points (very flexible) in this way work will be much easier not sticking to the strict placement of speakers. also if there will be need for absorption the angled plywood panels will be replaced with absorption panels

secondly i want to change the room according to recommended room ratios. may be length and the height have to be altered or the both three measurements.
Old 31st March 2010
  #42
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i was thinking the same thing in regards to the secondary angle... more flexibility of speaker placement will be crucial, as neither of us are capable of predicting the best placement sight unseen.

in terms of the ratios, again, I wouldn't bother unless you tackle all three. in terms of my loose estimation of how far your $2000, will stretch, I wasn't even considering the added boundary side wall. Probably looking at a few Hundred bucks for this wall alone. We're looking very dense here. Multiple layers of mdf on the face, and stuffed with dense insulation. This wall will need to be sealed tight on it's perimeter so sound sees this new wall as the rooms boundary. In an effort to not loose any isolation, it is good that this is the same wall that HVAC will penetrate the outer shell, as we can stagger the cement wall breach with the "mode wall"... this is a good thing. Not familiar with your corner of the world, are we looking strictly cooling, or do you have seasons that will require heat as well?

it's important that whoever it is you have doing this construction is willing to listen to theories that go beyond what a carpenter would typically consider "useful". do you feel as thought the person you have in mind is willing to go above and beyond?
Old 31st March 2010
  #43
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The reason I ask about the Hvac needs, is because I have seen these (see below) in use as air conditioning only, though I hear they are capable of heating as well, I just can't speak as to their performance in this regard. These are nice, because they are ductless, refridgerent tubing and drainage are all that pass through the wall, out doors to a detached condenser. Very cool. Not the quietest things in the world, but like you say, you can flip them on and off... by remote even. i don't think they are much louder than a ducted system, but even a ducted system would either need to be dampened to quiet it down, or shut off while critical tasks are happening. Another downside of a duct system, is that they aren't an automatic start stop, where as these types i link are:

Mitsubishi Electric - HVAC Advanced Products Division

Mitsubishi Electric - Mr. Slim Split-ductless

Kinda pricey though.
Old 31st March 2010
  #44
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Please confirm the dimensions in the base drawing below. Look good? Also, based on the photos, it appears there was a support on the ceiling running the width of the room. Is there only one, and how far down does it come, and where in the room is it? I want to make sure our splayed ceiling will clear it.

The back wall treatment will need to be modified from the original, as I thought your door was closer to the corner than it actually is.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-amit-dimensions.jpg  
Old 31st March 2010
  #45
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decisions changes at last movements. i will try and try to increase my budget and alter the room according to recommended ratios.

india is hot place which always demands cooling. split acs serve the cooling purpose.

there are no studio specialized carpenters in our areas. that is why i am clearing myself for every step which i can guide to carpenter.

i am also trying to find skp (goggle sketch up viewer) files on john slayers forum showing exactly your plan showing construction steps in scenes which i may show it to carpenter. but every construction is different according to the place.
Old 31st March 2010
  #46
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just "google" sketchup. It is a free download, and you will be able to manipulate my file however you wish. When all is said and done, I will email you the complete files.
Old 31st March 2010
  #47
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dimensions are absolutely and strictly same as shown.

yes there is a support on the ceiling on the width side of the room. there is only one support. i will tell u the measurements in 10 minutes
Old 31st March 2010
  #48
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this support is 8'1" away from the front wall ( desk side front wall).

support dimensions are 9" height upwards towards the roof and 11" width
Old 31st March 2010
  #49
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fantastic, I will alter as such.

Here is a rendering of the boundary wall (without support)

This assumes western construction, that is to say, 2x4 is actually 3.5" wide instead of 4, and studs are place 16" on center. Given that stud width and 2 layers of 5/8" mdf, your new boundary wall will be 9 1/8" away from the concrete wall. Should be plenty of room to route hvac. The horizontal studs you see running through out the wall are what's known here as "stringers" they are common in standard construction, but not at the quantity we will want. IMPORTANT! I rendered the "stringers" in a way that is not only impossible to do, (they need to be staggered so you can actually nail them in), BUT THEY NEED TO BE AS RANDOM AS POSSIBLE. We use these as an effort acoustically to prevent the wall cavities from resonating. The smaller the cavity, the less resonance of the wall surface. It is important to randomize the stringer's locations, because we don't want a bunch of similarly sized cavities, all resonating at the same frequency. I RENDERED THEM THE WAY I DID AS A MEANS BY WHICH TO SAVE DRAW TIME. Does this make sense?

After your hvac and electrical are routed, fill not only the area between the two walls, but the stud cavities themselves with a very dense "rockwool" type insulation. We are not looking for gas flow properties from this material, rather as dense as possible. Caulk the edges where the stud wall meets foundation perimeter, as well, caulk all of the sheathing (MDF) where it makes contact with the room as well. Any electrical or HVAC that comes through this new stud wall needs to be staggered from where it comes through the cement wall, and any of these openings should be caulked as well.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-amit-boundarywall.jpg  
Old 31st March 2010
  #50
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ok here we are, with the support column in place. (this will be either clear or missing from future drawings, as it just gets in the way.

when sheathing the new boundary wall, it is important to stagger the seams from the first layer to the second, so there are as few obvious air leaks from one side to the other. The idea is to have this wood wall as AIR TIGHT as possible.

I also rendered a 1/2" plywood layer on the front wall. This is to bring the length mode into tolerance. This is obviously a very odd construction practice, so expect your carpenter to roll his eyes at you. I would first secure a vapor barrier (plastic) to the concrete wall and then put up the ply. Wouldn't hurt to also seal the wood, in case it ever has the opportunity ti wick in moisture, we don't want this thing rotting behind your slat wall.

I don't know that this step is hyper critical... I mean we're talking a 1/2" here. This is time spent in effort to get the mode to fall exactly in place, yet we have this pedestal in the corner that is screwing with the ratio in some % anyway. This is your call, but I'd ditch the 1/2" ply on the front wall.

What ever you end up choosing for your flooring option, just try to see to it that it's roughly 1.2' thick.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-amit-walls.jpg  
Old 31st March 2010
  #51
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nice work
Old 31st March 2010
  #52
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I will not be editing posts, as I know you are on a tight schedule, and I don't want to hazard something going unread.

It's probably a good idea to put up a vapor barrier between the side cement wall and the insulation that will be touching it. This is just a guess, and something i would ask your carpenter about before hand.
Old 31st March 2010
  #53
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wall framing in place.

I re-angled both walls and ceiling to 6 degrees, as I'd hate to skate around at the bare minimum and find out there's not enough. There's plenty of room around the edges, to snake stuff around if need be, plus the inside edge of front and back walls are 1' from the boundaries. So, 8.5" gap between studs and concrete for hvac duct if need be, plus a 1' of bass traps built into initial framing. I figured after the room is up, if the length mode needs a bit more taming, you could build the bass trap at the back wall even thicker if it needs it...

I left plenty of height to account for a 2x6" rafter ceiling. I'm no load expert, but I can't imagine a 2x6" can't carry the weight of this ceiling, especially considering there's zero possibility for a "live load". Oh, and at the ceiling support column, there's over 8" of clearance.

speaking of loads, I started framing the front and back walls at 24" on center, as I considered this to be a non load bearing structure. You can see that on the side walls, I switched over to 16" on center, as these are the walls that carry the ceiling. This may not be necessary, but I figured better safe than sorry.

You will want a few stringers in these walls as well, though not nearly as many as the boundary wall. Now, within say... the left wall... I would keep these stringers random, on the right wall, TRY to duplicate the pattern from the left wall. Talking out my butt here, but this may yield a better left right symmetry in terms of room resonance. This is also an area where actually understand the math behind slat wall resonators is probably important.. I'll do my best to research this, though I'd like for you to do the same. Construction to this point should take some time, so we have time to look around.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-amit-wallframe.jpg  
Old 31st March 2010
  #54
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this is where we sit as far as usable floor space.

hopefully your carpenter is more skilled at actually framing than I am at drawing it. heh

If you'd like, pm me your email, and I will send along the file as is so far. I will be logged on few and far between between now and next Tuesday.

GO BREWERS!!!!

Sorry, I really love baseball season.
Attached Thumbnails
building home studio advice needed-framing-dimensions.jpg  
Old 1st April 2010
  #55
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got the email... you should delete that last message, bad to keep that visible.
Old 1st April 2010
  #56
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I'm on the road most of the day today, so it's likely I won't be talking much today.

Guess I gotta work some time.

-John
Old 1st April 2010
  #57
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Hey Amit.

It occurred to me that in my reads regarding splayed surfaces to eliminate flutter echo, that both surfaces my need to be splayed @ 5 degrees. Good for walls, bad for our ceiling. I'll check into it when I get some time, but if you could do some research likewise, that'd be great. We may need to either splay the ceiling at a greater angle, or flatten it and use traditional absorption, diffusion, and rugs.

There seems to be a lot of views on this thread, so if anyone following along knows or sees anything I'm doing wrong, Amit and I would really appreciate it.

Back to work.

John
Old 2nd April 2010
  #58
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I've been reading around, and it seems as though 5 degrees is acceptable for a single boundary angle... so we're good.
Old 2nd April 2010
  #59
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What a relief.............aah.........
Old 2nd April 2010
  #60
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hi john,

after doing front wall, side wall and floor alterations (before angled wall and ceiling) what will be the measurements of the room. what will be our room ratio.
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