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Sorbothane Mounts for Guitar Cabinets
Old 16th November 2009
  #1
Sorbothane Mounts for Guitar Cabinets

Just wondering if anyone has played around with Sorbothane to isolate 4X12 cabinets inside an isolation room when recording loud guitars - or anything similar. Wondering how much of a difference it makes. I have been reading that it makes a difference to get the cabs off the floor. Any thoughts around this?
Old 11th January 2010
  #2
anyone know where to get Sorbothane in Nashville?
Old 11th January 2010
  #3
SAC
Registered User
 

You might try Nashville Rubber and Gasket off Elmhill Pike and Massman Drive - Near UPS and Gibson Guitars at 1900 Elm Tree Drive, Nashville, TN 37210
NASHVILLE RUBBER & GASKET CO., INC.

1900 Elm Tree Drive, Nashville, TN 37210-3725 - Google Maps

It would be useful if it is sitting on something that rattles or is resonant - as the Sorbothane will mechanically decouple the speaker from the surface and prevent the majority of energy being transmitted from one surface to another by (edit; "condition", what is "condition"????) conduction. But be aware, if you do have a problem with other surfaces resonating, that the energy will also be transmitted through the air, and the surface may require additional damping...

Otherwise, you are wasting allot of money. Sorbothane isn't cheap.
Old 12th January 2010
  #4
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jhbrandt's Avatar
I totally agree with SAC. If you have isolation problems by flanking transmission then the pads will only help by a very small amount, but they're good for stopping rattles and such.

It won't make the amp 'sound' any better or different. If you are looking for a 'change' in the sound, it's probably a waste.

Thinking of some of the Voo-Doo that goes around... We did a test back in '92 on the new Monster Cable mic cables at Mid-Town Studio (was in the FiSi building - closed now). We made up two 6 ft. by 4" by 4" boxes with XLRs on the ends. In one we soldered the new Monster cable and in the other one we soldered 3 coat-hangers---- results: 7 out of 10 engineers picked the coat-hangers.. hahahah!

Good luck!
-- John
Old 12th January 2010
  #5
Gear Addict
 

Sidestepstudios,

I'll jump in on this...please go to your preferred music retailer in Nashville and pick up a GRAMMA isolation riser (Auralex)...Try it in showroom (I'll suggest Corner just 'cause they're great)...try it at your space.

Look forward to your reply.

Sorbothane is an excellent decoupler but not easy to use with a 4X12 as you have to create a system. The GRAMMA was purposely designed and is proven. It will change the tone and 90+ % of users favor the tighter/cleaner result.
Old 12th January 2010
  #6
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hedback View Post
Sidestepstudios,

I'll jump in on this...please go to your preferred music retailer in Nashville and pick up a GRAMMA isolation riser (Auralex)...Try it in showroom (I'll suggest Corner just 'cause they're great)...try it at your space.

Look forward to your reply.

Sorbothane is an excellent decoupler but not easy to use with a 4X12 as you have to create a system. The GRAMMA was purposely designed and is proven. It will change the tone and 90+ % of users favor the tighter/cleaner result.
It makes a noticeable difference...
But for a cab that tall versus depth I would not use Sorbothane, will make the cab move too much at the top, rock back and forth...If you know what I mean..
Same reason I would not put Sorbothane under the speaker stands, but between the speakers and stand...
Old 12th January 2010
  #7
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhbrandt View Post
I totally agree with SAC. If you have isolation problems by flanking transmission then the pads will only help by a very small amount, but they're good for stopping rattles and such.

It won't make the amp 'sound' any better or different. If you are looking for a 'change' in the sound, it's probably a waste.

Thinking of some of the Voo-Doo that goes around... We did a test back in '92 on the new Monster Cable mic cables at Mid-Town Studio (was in the FiSi building - closed now). We made up two 6 ft. by 4" by 4" boxes with XLRs on the ends. In one we soldered the new Monster cable and in the other one we soldered 3 coat-hangers---- results: 7 out of 10 engineers picked the coat-hangers.. hahahah!

Good luck!
-- John
Could not disagree more..
Old 12th January 2010
  #8
Gear Addict
 

Mike...there is the GREAT GRAMMA for this purpose. Stable for stack or single 4x12 with two heads. Depends...but single 4x12 with one head can be just fine on regular GRAMMA
Old 12th January 2010
  #9
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hedback View Post
Mike...there is the GREAT GRAMMA for this purpose. Stable for stack or single 4x12 with two heads. Depends...but single 4x12 with one head can be just fine on regular GRAMMA
Right, was just adding my logic to why Sorbothane might not be the best...
But, if you put the amp on top of a piece of doubled 3/4" MDF, THEN had Sorbothane under the MDF that would be pretty good..
I still prefer the cabinet to be off the floor at least 12" to start with, for other reasons..micing at a small distance from cab..
This is IMHO..

Most cabs have at least metal feet, this is far better than if it was just two flat surfaces on top of each other...that is the worst..
Old 12th January 2010
  #10
OMG! This is a glorious day. I have been off the forums for a couple of days and come back to find one of my threads has become an OFFICIAL GEARSLUT THREAD! I am so happy I may go piss my pants.

Seriously though, I guess I should have provided more information, but in the end, I really just want to know the location of where to purchase the stuff. Thanks SAC for doing that.

I have just had a tracking room and ISO room completed by Technical Audio Services. My first post was before they were finished and the second post is after completion. They've built it to the highest quality standards and have done it right. This isn't a hack job by me.

I do not want to change the sound, I simply need to decouple the speaker cabinet from the wood floor. Although we have decoupled walls with resilmount clips, 3 layers of drywall with Green Glue, SilenSeal, and a great bass trap (plus soft walls, etc), and all the other things that I don't understand that professional studio builders do - it comes back to the fact that this is a modded upstairs area of a house and the weak spot is the floor - and a particular area in the corner that goes out the front of the house. There are no other buzzes or rattles in the room. The amp heads are in another room altogether. The bass traps will handle the most of the energy released. I also have anti-vibration material used under A/C units which may help, but Sorbothane was recommended to me for this purpose. Even if I didn't use anything, this new room will prevent my neighbors from calling the cops on me, but I thought I would make every effort. So this is more of an afterthought.

Please carry on. Good calls on the amp moving back and forth. I'll need to account for that.

Scott
Old 12th January 2010
  #11
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macc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio View Post
It makes a noticeable difference...
But for a cab that tall versus depth I would not use Sorbothane, will make the cab move too much at the top, rock back and forth...If you know what I mean..
Same reason I would not put Sorbothane under the speaker stands, but between the speakers and stand...
Big +1 on this, based on my own experience. Sorbothane is crazy stuff, but very good indeed.
Old 13th January 2010
  #13
SAC
Registered User
 

a
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidestepstudios View Post

Yeah, $40 to mechanically decouple equipment and to 'prevent floor damage'.

Anyone can do the same with $3-5 bucks with some 1/2 neoprene.
Of course it won't have a fancy label or decal to put on their car...

And just what thickness of Sorbothane, assuming it requires Sorbothane and not any of a myriad more readily and cheaply available materials such as neoprene or silicone... are folks imagining using that would result on SO much movement of a cabinet when half of the claimed benefits of the commercial versions also simultaneously maintain they improve the sound byt reducing minute motion!!!! LOL!

Any thickness that results in excessive motion indicates either an error in selecting the thickness of the material or in selecting the material itself, or both.

And regards to the 'absolutely disagree' comment above.
It is fascinating how in any other sphere regarding the physical mechanics of vibration and energy transference, the methods to accomplish this are 'old' in the sense that essentially everything has been well understood for 100+ years.

And any such changes are EASILY objectively measured and quantified. I would LOVE to see the data. Oh wait, is that provided? And no, I don't want to see some worthless frequency response!

But when we come to things 'audio', science is impotent and mysticism by so many who eschew math, technical terms and anything related to science, dominates.

Audio is indeed a very special discipline. So much so that it seems to benefit by relegating that impotent science stuff to a secondary role where symbolism and appearances trump objective reality. :-S

It might seem prudent to suggest that the engineers and physicists include classes in philosophy and mysticism in their curriculum in order to encompass such characteristics, but having multiple degrees in physics as well as others, including one in philosophy, doesn't seem to make the mystical approach to 'things audio' any more valid, nor palatable.

Tell you what, if one wants to spend big bucks on magical solutions that 'tighten' the sound by decoupling motion from rigid systems simultaneous to the alternatives (like tip toes) that 'tighten' the sound by rigidly coupling the speaker to rigid systems (which way to Oz, Scarecrow?), for the most parts, aside from the fundamental issue of mechanical coupling and resonance, I suspect the willingness to spent $50+ for simple mechanical isolation has already determined that one has convinced themself that any secondary affects of the said system are real.

And anyone who is familiar with drug testing should be cognizant with the VERY real current issue with drug testing trials where such perceptual effects as pill size, color, liquid, pill, powder, time of day administration, number of doses per day, and all sorts of other superfluous psychological variables are increasingly and significantly effecting the outcomes of trials sufficient to obscure any objectively verifiable clinical effects. Thus its hard to ignore the roll of psychology and foregone expectations on results.

What would be welcome would be for the mystics who assert the same changes in perception (aside from those of decoupling the mechanical resonance 'driver' from the 'sink'), by either route to Nirvana, should publish their results in the JSME, ASHRAE, or any other number of journals/associations and thus really revolutionize the much larger market of industrial vibration control.

After all, there is a MUCH larger and more lucrative market than that of audio, although they may not be as gullible.

Personally you folks can spend your money and believe (from the root "to WISH it to be so") whatever you like. Personally I will just sit and sulk that Dione Warwick and her cohorts couldn't foresee their tele-psychic business going 'bankrupt'! LOL!I will simply persist in my belief that it was actually the result of a very sophisticated IRS plot conducted from Area 51 from within specially constructed Faraday cages specially tuned to jam psychic signals - when they weren't preoccupied with staring at and tipping goats.

But an aspect that does tend to trump objective and subjectively correlative effects has to do with our expectations. And in that regards, the line goes how...?

"...still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" (Simon) and "Men in general are quick to believe that which they wish to be true" (J.Caesar)

:-))
Old 13th January 2010
  #14
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jhbrandt's Avatar
OMG, SAC. I am laughing my ass off!

Well, I was going to say something but you, in your precise and thought-provoking way, have done better than I could at the moment.

and... I couldn't agree more with your last quotes from Paul Simon and Julius Caesar. If only our species could cure itself of the disease of wish-thinking...

- John
Old 13th January 2010
  #15
I love it! Thanks SAC. heh

All I know is that this was recommended to me and it seems to work well for a lot of people I have talked to outside of GS for decoupling. I think I already said I don't need to change the sound, just decouple.

I like having stuff in my studio that no one has ever heard of (Sorbothane sounds like a prescription drug to me), which cannot be obtained easily, which is more expensive than the alternative, and allows me to talk about stuff that all of my friends outside the studio will not understand. heh

Looks like we have a winner. And I get to have a fancy decal on my car, too? Awesome!!!!
Old 13th January 2010
  #16
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Just pick up a couple recycled rubber floor mats at Home Depot to accomplish the same thing. If you are anal about the surface area then pull out a knife and cut one up into small squares. Problem solved.
Old 13th January 2010
  #17
SO until I decide what to do for real here is my custom solution:

1. Cut four 1" x 1" of the antivibration material, like the kind you get from HVAC places. Place two of them on the floor (with two on each side).

2. Put a brick on top of the two on the left, and a brick on top of the two on the right and make sure they are sturdy.

3. Put some soft material like non-slip shelf liner on top of the bricks to protect the cab.

4. Place the cab on top and make sure it is sturdy.

GS approved, slacker, cheapo, everyone-can-suck-it solution.
Old 14th January 2010
  #18
SAC
Registered User
 

May I ask what the bricks, etc. contribute????

If you want to control mechanical vibrations, ALL you need is the viscous material. All the rest is simply Rube Goldberg...
Old 14th January 2010
  #19
The bricks allow me to get a little more height. I also keep them around to throw at people.
Old 14th January 2010
  #20
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jhbrandt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidestepstudios View Post
I also keep them around to throw at people.
Hahaha!... Excellent dood!

Seriously though, I would suggest that you place the bricks on the floor first then the iso material then the cab.

Note: this procedure may give you a 3db reduction in flanking transmission. Usually electric guitar is cranked with the LF output being quite significant enough to vibrate the walls. This is done through the air medium and not from the structure of the cabinet. But in your situation with the floor being the weak link this should help a lot. 3db is like a 25% reduction. heh

Whatever you use as a pad, look at it as you place the weight on it. It should compress slightly.. but not half-way. A small amount of compression will make it work. No compression or too much with render it useless. Keep cutting the pad until you get a small amount of compression and this will get you close to the decoupling that you need.
Good luck.

Cheers,
John
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