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attn Acoustic Gurus: Take a look at my 2 scenarios!?!
Old 16th November 2009
  #1
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DGrimmett's Avatar
 

attn Acoustic Gurus: Take a look at my 2 scenarios!?!

NOTE: please excuse the crappy paint render of the room. I am not an architect..


Hey guys, first of all, thanks in advanced for taking the time to read this. I am moving my studio to a different location in December. I have had a studio in this location before but I am revamping the room and doing things differently. I have learned a lot of new information since I have been gone from that room.

I am drawing everything out and I basically have two different scenarios. Please take a look at them and give me your opinions and pros/cons between the two different set ups. Basically, I am trying to decide the position of where the mixing station will be and where the drum set will be. I am going for an "all in one" room (control and tracking room in same space) because I like how the vibe and interaction is. The other room is too small for a control room (I've tried) but it makes for a good size overdub booth. The room will have regular sheet rock walls and the floors will be 1/2 thick carpet 1/2 wood flooring. I will be treating the room with a mix of 703 ceiling clouds and panels, thick 3-4" wedge foam, 703 bass traps, and auralex foam bass traps. I will play around more with where the treatment will be going once I am in the room with gear.

I will list some of the pros/cons I see, but I would like to know your opinions too... A second pair of eyes always helps and may shed some
light on things I didn't catch.

The drawings to the right are the side view of the room. It is a bonus room over a garage so it has that pentagon shape to it. The ceiling in the "red section" of the room has a less steep slope and is longer because of the bay window area that sticks out (the window will have thick treatment)
I made a mistake with a measurement .. in the "red section" it says that the left wall is 4.5 feet that is WRONG it is 6 feet! (sorry)

PLAN B: This was the original plan.

Pros:
-No wall behind monitors (not sure if thats good or bad)
- Wont have a drum set blocking the door, more room when entering studio.
-Better vision of the artists, wont have my back to em and there is visibility through the glass into the other room from this spot.
-The drums have a different angle ceiling over them

Cons:
- Drum set might be a little cramped with mics around it and it "kinda" blocks the door to the overdub room.
-The monitors will have more influence of the side ceiling because they slant inward.
-The back wall is closer to the monitors which could cause reflections (I plan on pretty much killing that back wall and the ceilings tho.
-The drums and the mixing desk would be pretty close to each other.


PLAN A: This is the alternative set up.

Pros:
-In the mix position the back wall is farther away.
-Drums have a little more room on the side
-There are walls behind the monitors( dont know if thats good or bad)
-Monitors could be spread more apart.

Cons:
-Back is turned to artist for the most part
-instead of entering the studio and having a badass mixing station, you walk in and run into a drum set.
-ceiling design is lower on the sides around the drums


Well, That's just what I see off the bat. Questions come down to..

Has anyone dealt with ceilings like these? What were there findings?
Should I have walls behind my monitors or no?

Please any things you would like to point out would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you thank you thank you!
Attached Thumbnails
attn Acoustic Gurus: Take a look at my 2 scenarios!?!-mbal_plan_a.jpg   attn Acoustic Gurus: Take a look at my 2 scenarios!?!-mbal_plan_b.jpg  

Last edited by DGrimmett; 16th November 2009 at 04:07 AM.. Reason: OC #'s not area codes ;)
Old 16th November 2009
  #2
Gear Addict
 

ScramChops,

By all measures "B" in terms of orientation is superior. "A" is a major compromise to mix function.

As far as treatments...Auralex LENRDs won't help you much in either function. The Auralex VENUS, GIK Monsters...etc...thicker heavy duty traps are needed.

Also, a cloud above mix in the range of 8'x8'x4" is a must.

Think about four or so of the GIK 244 on stands behind the speakers in "B" set-up.

There's more to it obviously. The main point to keep at hand in this space will be careful monitor placement. Expect to take some time: weeks/months to get optimal in factors. Definetely a room to utilize measurements. Select three tracks as reference throughout the process that highlight balance, imaging and LF response.
Old 16th November 2009
  #3
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DGrimmett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hedback View Post
ScramChops,

By all measures "B" in terms of orientation is superior. "A" is a major compromise to mix function.

As far as treatments...Auralex LENRDs won't help you much in either function. The Auralex VENUS, GIK Monsters...etc...thicker heavy duty traps are needed.

Also, a cloud above mix in the range of 8'x8'x4" is a must.

Think about four or so of the GIK 244 on stands behind the speakers in "B" set-up.

There's more to it obviously. The main point to keep at hand in this space will be careful monitor placement. Expect to take some time: weeks/months to get optimal in factors. Definetely a room to utilize measurements. Select three tracks as reference throughout the process that highlight balance, imaging and LF response.

Thanks Jeffrey,
Could you elaborate more on why Plan A is a major compromise to mix position?
Also What benefits would I get from putting the GIK 244 panels behind the monitors? (like I said it might be cutting it close - the space between the monitors and the drum kit in "Plan B)

Thanks for taking the time!

I know its a long post guys, but anyone got anything?
Old 16th November 2009
  #4
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
I am having a bit of problem understanding the layouts (no you it is me not feeling up to par today), but Jeff is a pretty smart guy so he will always guide you right.

Quote:
Also What benefits would I get from putting the GIK 244 panels behind the monitors?
It will help with any SBIR problems you might have.
Learn what is SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interface Response).
Old 16th November 2009
  #5
Gear Addict
 
DGrimmett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
I am having a bit of problem understanding the layouts (no you it is me not feeling up to par today), but Jeff is a pretty smart guy so he will always guide you right.



It will help with any SBIR problems you might have.
Learn what is SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interface Response).
Interesting. Thanks Glenn!
Yea it is kind of a complicated layout to reproduce (not having any CAD skills)
I'll be in the town that this room is located in tonight, and I'll try to take some
pictures. It will be hard to capture the whole room without a wide angle but It
might help folks better understand the layout. Thanks!


So if I don't have anything behind the speakers (just open space) will I have less bass response? Would it be more accurate bass response since there is no proximity effect?

Or will it just depend really?
Old 16th November 2009
  #6
Gear Addict
 

Sure

Cons Plan A:
- Mix: the issue is that the speakers are in the nook and your ears (and clients) are essentially in a different (but adjacent) acoustical space. Imaging/Depth/Balance decisions will be extremely tough. Low frequency could be (theoretically) "corrected" with multiple subs and proper calibration...but what a pain.
- Drums: phase issues from angled surfaces...even with absorption panels, cymbals are going to be tough to capture.

Pros Plan B:
- Mix: as for speaker/boundary interference...once you're beyond 4.5' the cancellation goes below low frequency response of most reference monitors. It's not that you won't have to have an acoustical "awareness" of the wall behind the monitors...but it won't be this cancellation dip. You'll need to not place speakers in significant modal peaks/dips (instead of your ears, you may be able to place your speakers in the 33%-38% range, but be careful to keep ears away from 50% front/back). By placing absorbers behind the speakers you should immediately stabalize the depth aspect of the soundstage. But, the ceiling angles are still problematic (as mentioned for drums)...just a better battle to fight: absorb the clip surfaces to improve mix opposed to having weird drum tracks.

Placing drums in nook per Plan B can work to your advantage...like a little drum shell.

As for more or less bass response from proximity...not really the goal. The goal is accuracy. This profile of room, in my experiences, will always have a lower mid/upper bass resonance that may persist. However, by using very efficient corner traps and broadband absorbers first, you CAN make this work.

If money was NO object (and I understand realities) and I was asked for a single "widget" to use it would have to be the RPG BAD Arc panel (4" thick). It's offers near linear absorption to 100 Hz, even diffusion of upper mid and polycylindrical scattering of mids/highs... a couple dozen of these could make this space a very balanced project studio.
Old 16th November 2009
  #7
Gear Addict
 
DGrimmett's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey Hedback View Post
Sure

Cons Plan A:
- Mix: the issue is that the speakers are in the nook and your ears (and clients) are essentially in a different (but adjacent) acoustical space. Imaging/Depth/Balance decisions will be extremely tough. Low frequency could be (theoretically) "corrected" with multiple subs and proper calibration...but what a pain.
- Drums: phase issues from angled surfaces...even with absorption panels, cymbals are going to be tough to capture.

Pros Plan B:
- Mix: as for speaker/boundary interference...once you're beyond 4.5' the cancellation goes below low frequency response of most reference monitors. It's not that you won't have to have an acoustical "awareness" of the wall behind the monitors...but it won't be this cancellation dip. You'll need to not place speakers in significant modal peaks/dips (instead of your ears, you may be able to place your speakers in the 33%-38% range, but be careful to keep ears away from 50% front/back). By placing absorbers behind the speakers you should immediately stabalize the depth aspect of the soundstage. But, the ceiling angles are still problematic (as mentioned for drums)...just a better battle to fight: absorb the clip surfaces to improve mix opposed to having weird drum tracks.

Placing drums in nook per Plan B can work to your advantage...like a little drum shell.

As for more or less bass response from proximity...not really the goal. The goal is accuracy. This profile of room, in my experiences, will always have a lower mid/upper bass resonance that may persist. However, by using very efficient corner traps and broadband absorbers first, you CAN make this work.

If money was NO object (and I understand realities) and I was asked for a single "widget" to use it would have to be the RPG BAD Arc panel (4" thick). It's offers near linear absorption to 100 Hz, even diffusion of upper mid and polycylindrical scattering of mids/highs... a couple dozen of these could make this space a very balanced project studio.

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate the info. I wanted to go with B anyway so I'm glad to hear those points of view. I think the room will have more impact walking right into the "control room" section of the studio as opposed to walking right into a drum kit.

I will post some real pictures later! Maybe that will help.
Old 17th November 2009
  #8
Gear Addict
 
DGrimmett's Avatar
 

Pics!





hey hopefully these will help. I'll get on in a bit and make some comments.. Gotta run!
Attached Thumbnails
attn Acoustic Gurus: Take a look at my 2 scenarios!?!-outsidelookinin.jpeg   attn Acoustic Gurus: Take a look at my 2 scenarios!?!-nook_trackingsection.jpeg   attn Acoustic Gurus: Take a look at my 2 scenarios!?!-controlroomsection.jpeg  
Old 18th November 2009
  #9
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Now I see it. I am with Jeff's recommendations. thumbsup
Old 19th November 2009
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Weasel9992's Avatar
 

+1 for Jeff. "B" is the right one.

Frank
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