I am trying to do everything correct with my current build. But unfortunalty the only way I am going to be able to follow all of the rules is to go out and rob a bank or something!

I got 2 quotes on 1/2" laminated glass and 3/8" laminated glass and 1/4 laminated glass.

4 panes 40"X60" of 3/8" tempered glass would cost me $75 each so a total of $300. I have read that laminated glass is the way to go for sound isolation but tempered glass is a huge improvement over regular float glass. The thing I cant understand is why would a pane 40"X60" 1/2 laminated glass cost $320 by itself then times 2 is $640 then the same size panes in 3/8" laminated glass cost $250 each!!!!! Thats a total of $1140!!! just for windows panes and not the frames or nothing?? That just dont sound right to me?

When both of the guys asked me what I was using it for It seemed like the had a evil grin on their face and jacked the price up just because!

I cant find any test done on 3/8" tempered glass for an stc rating or whatever the correct way of measuring glass sound travel is.

Anyone have an opinion on 3/8" tempered glass. My wall are double wall, double 5/8 drywall, 2 leaf system. With regualr pink stuff in between and I think it has an stc of 63.

Thanks

Regular plate glass works good, for a window off the floor a few feet tempered glass serve's NO purpose.
If its for say a sliding glass door, in a shower then Tempered is the way to go, its a safety issue.
The space between the glass is just as important as the glass weight.
1/2" or 3/8" works very good..
I have used 2 layers of 3/8" giving me 3/4"...

I had the same issues but found a unique solution. I priced out full windows that ranged in price from $1250 to $2300, and that was for 36" x 36". A friend of mine works for a company that does plate glass windowed doors for huge refridgeration and freezer units. He mentioned that when the door to one of those units is closed you can barely hear a person screaming bloody hell from inside. One day after work we took a Marshall half stck into one of the units, closed the door, cranked it up to ten...damn, you could barely hear it from 5 feet away. Granted, the units are sealed tight as hell, but I was impressed. He made me a 36" x 36" dual paned window 1/2" thick with a steel frame covered with vinyl for only the wholesale cost of the materials. Believe me, it works, and cuts out more sound than any STC 63 window I ever heard. It may look a bit weird, and not the prettiest sight, but function over form for me.

According to Rob's Book page...83 "Float glass is the least effective glazing when considering acoustic isolation." And he confiremed what you was saying about tempered glass being used for sliding doors and things like that but he also said "Tempered glass is superior to float glass when acoustic isolation is a consideration" So according to research tempered glass would have a higher STC than regular float/plate glass. But whats the value???

4 peices of 3/8" 40"X60" tempered for $300 seems awfully tempting but I dont want to shoot myself totally in the foot! Its 4 peices becuase I have Iso booth on left and Live room on the right of the CR and plus they have been at his shop for over a year..screwed up order or something thats why he is willing to discount them for me. Will be sort of free because I am returning some thermal windows that I had previously purchased not knowing better! . I have already made a comprimise by not using rockwool for my insulation taking my walls from 69 stc to 63 but my Isolation will only be as good as my windows and doors

My total opening would be 12" from finish interior to finish exterior and would probally slant the control room side by 6 degrees or something like that.

Thx

QUOTE:
I am trying to do everything correct with my current build

Then it is going to cost you to NOT cut corners (don't rob a bank either!!)
Go with the laminate. There are a lot of pro studios who use 1" and thicker laminate panes.

The laminate between the two panes is the KEY (a skilled worker is needed for this process hence the price difference) to its superiority over plate and tempered glass for acoustical consideration.

It is difficult to compare the PRICE or EFFECTIVENESS between a 1/2" 40"X60" laminated glass pane (cost $320 is A LOT CHEAPER than when I purchased four 48"x60" laminate panes) and a 3/8" tempered glass pane when they are two different beasts.

Good luck.

STC for laminated is more in the higher frequencies.
I can not think of one time I have read someone suggested tempered glass for a CTR window, or ever seen a STC spec for it...
One thing I know is, different numbers for the SAME material is not uncommon...

Congratulations. Key thing, keep to one thread on one site. You are currently crossposting on at least 2 sites. It is difficult for people to help you when they do not know everything that has been written, much less your keeping track of what has been written. For the benefit of readers, the other thread that I am aware of is here:

Recording Studio Design :: View topic - Open 20'X53'x12' Space for a Design Concept. in USA

Amongst other things you wrote in that thread, you wrote that your budget is $5k. I listed several items that could cost that much in and of themselves. In that paragraph I wrote "Good news is that the windows themselves will not run $5,000." within the context of where I wrote that , the message was that windows will be expensive, just not $5k expensive.

There is a great wealth of information available here. Use the search function. I entered "glass STC" as the search criteria. A search query that would be appropriate for you to start with. The second thread that showed up has 3/8" laminated glass right in the the topic title! The link I provided in that thread has the STC data on several types of laminated glass. One of the reasons I did not write a specific number is that one of the factors affecting the TL of laminated glass is the thickness of the plastic used in between. The OP did not respond to my last post with what
thickness of plastic he is interested in.



The above is difficult to answer on a point by point basis, so I won't.

You are a building a system. Building a window that has greater TL than the wall it is in is a waste money. Yes, laminated has greater TL than float glass, but what you want to do is match the TL of the wall. The guideline in selecting glass thickness is to use one third the thickness of the drywall or one size thinner if laminated glass. So in your case 1/2" float would do fine.

In case you did not notice it, doing design work on the windows just SAVED you about $1k compared to what you were contemplating. Good design will save you money.

Is there any reason you are not going with the STC69 rated wall? It costs about the same, or possibly less, that the STC 63 wall.

It has been mentioned to you several times already. Have you started to use Sketchup to create your design?

Good studio building is 90% design and 90% construction. If you can not afford to do it right the first time, how can you afford to fix it? you wrote that the space is rented and you are anxious start building. you have started the building with the design process.

Andre

Stop your complaining... our glass was over $4k...

Regards,

Thx for the answer. In Rob's book he stated the two disadvantages of using tempered glass. It could not be re-cut and if nicked or damaged then it would break up in little pieces. But he did mentioned that he had installed it before for sound isolation. And he also mentioned that it was superior to float glass so thats why I was interested in it considering the price of it vs laminated. I also considered it becuase I did like alot of people suggested...Buy the Book! Which I did too.



Rockwool! the wall with STC 69 uses rockwool and if using the r13 sound batts then that would give you an STC of 63. Two Laminated pieces of 3/8 would give you a STC of 51 so I know that if I bought Rockwool I would have to go with 3/4" laminated on one side and 1/2" laminated on other. I also have come to the realization by reading this forum other forums and all the STC values of premade windows and doors that a STC value of 56 is sufficient for most applications. Unless you are recording that Gorilla again. So even 1 1/2" lami and 1 3/8" of lami is not going to even get close to STC of 69.

LOL yeah it does sound like I am Bitching! Bare with me bro. I have 6 children a wife a morgage a kid getting ready to go to college and make around $49,000 a year. So you can understand how I could stuggle paying $2500 for 4 window panes!

Believe me guys if I could I would do EVERYTHING according to the pro studios! I would!! There are 4 mid size studios in my area and NONE of them even come close to the awsome setups some of you have.

I am trying to offer some of that professionalism to my setup but at the same time realize that I still have a slew of gear to purchase and somehow meet in the middle. The walls have to be perfect! no cutting corners there besides the rockwool vs r13 but the super doors and glass I can make a comprimise becuase they could always be upgraded. And until then I just cant crank the music while I am recording!

Thx again Andre! I have the ratios and design on paper but not sketchup. Big learning curve for me there! but believe me bro you have helped out soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much it aint funny! Feel like I owe you big time!

Mondays mission.....Price quote for 1/2" plate glass. Now how would I have known this if I would not have asked?

Yeah, I sympathize! I ended up using 3/4" and 5/8" pieces for my CR/LR windows. Ouch!!!! $$$$$$$$$! I also got a third piece of 5/8" for the inside wall of an outside window that I wanted to keep for the ambient light.

It really is expensive to do it right!

Good luck!

OK, Listen up.........

Agreeed that you get better bang with both tempered and Laminate - BUT - if you can't swing the cost - plain old float can still get the job done.....

In the end - with float - it's all about mass - start with your existing wall mass and install a glass panel that is the next size up in mass compared to the wall.

Then step 1/4" above that for the other window (do not use 2 pieces of glass the same thickness - you have mentioned this a few times and it would not be wise).

Don't kill yourself over the small stuff.

Rod

WoW the man himself!!!!! I bought your book bro! Page 89 Tells me that I need 1/2" + 1/4" so that equates to 3/4" Now that's float glass. So the reason I was asking the question is becuase you said that tempered was superior to float but tempered and float weighs the same so thats why I asked about 3/8" because it was very close to the mass of two layers of 5/8" drywall. But I get it. I will have to pass on the glasses the guy have already cut and just sitting there for $75 each!

two layers of 5/8" =5.25 lb/ft2

1/4" thick glass = .25 x 13.5 = 3.375 lb/ft2

3/8" thick glass = .375 x 13.5 = 5.063 lb/ft2

1/2" thick glass = .5 x 13.5 = 6.75 lb/ft2

P.S. Andre I have started framing the space but only the lounge that I will be living in until the wife takes me back!

If you use 3/8" and 1/2" and the rest of the window is done correctly it will work very well, the reason you want a size up is because the wall has more mass and stiffness with the 2 by 4 plus batt insulation, the window has none of these...

what I can tell you is shop around I got wildly different prices

?

??

???

Is this typical of the knowledge that you are doing your design on?

Shocked,
Andre

http://www.kriegerproducts.com/acous...775-9856&gid=5

Check out the above; notice the glass TYPE and THICKNESS, then notice the STC...
And you will see what I was talking about, regarding Plate vs. Laminated..It takes ALOT regardless to get those high STC50's...and a serious air space.
If you're attempting a window with a STC of 69, you will need FAR more stuff....

If you have looked at many specs on doors, windows, walls ect you should notice the fact that is relatively easy to get in the STC 40's, harder to get in the STC 50's, and FAR harder to get in the STC60's.
Stated another way it would NOT be a linear scale..

Also look at door prices with respect to STC specs, Some doors more than DOUBLE in price going from a STC 51 to a STC 56...

By the way the above window with a spec of STC56 was $3500.00 for a 3.5' by 5'.
I will always prefer to build on site for several reasons...

One more point; as you get higher STC numbers other problems will start to be more noticeable, such as HVAC noise, makes no sense to have great isolation and
have a high HVAC noise level...

Andre the knowledge that I am doing my design on comes mostly from the advice that has been given in the 2 forums and from Rod's Book. And of course from hours and hours and hours and hours of reading! Everytime I goto a site that provides &Sound Proff Windows they are always boasting about anywhere from 45-56 STC for their Superior Windows and I read it like WTF???? That's not even in the 60s then As I am reading about the doors I see the same information!!!! Again I am like WTF thats not in the 60's either.So I am led to believe after reading all of the mass information on the net that a STC of 56 is pretty damn good??? Am I incorrect on that?Now you pointed me in the direction of a wall that had an STC rating of 69 and I was like hell yeah!!!!!! But again now comes the problem of having doors and windows with that same value. Holy ****!!!!!! I am saying to myself there is no way I am going to be able to afford that so then thats when I made the decision not to use rockwool that would give me that 69STC and use Fiberglass SoundBatts with the same wall wich would reduce the STC to 63. Then Match the Doors and Windows to the 63 Walls wich would still be +7 from what the rest of the sound proofing manufactures think is good sound isolation!I thought you would be proud of me not shocked :(

It all depends on how much you need from room A to B for example.
A studio I designed/built a while back had such thinking, some walls were built far better than other walls..
Doors were positioned to give the best isolation with OUT having to use the High STC type...
And like you may already know, doors and windows are your weak link, doors FAR more so.
And yes a STC56 door is VERY good, the best I've seen for a single door..
When more isolation is needed you use an air lock and 2 doors...

I was researching this about 6 months ago. There are a lot of places online to look for glass. Even look for "table tops" made from glass. A lot of time they are even cheaper than "regular" glass for the same thicknesses but come already beveled/rounded etc.

I ended up doing away with the wall and door idea and buying some decent used sliding glass doors and creating an airlock between them. I bought rubber weatherstripping and made my own seals for them. The seals took a while to make but were better than anything I could buy.

117db on the live room side, 50db on the mixing room side. It's not *dead* quiet but you can hold a conversation while someone goes to town on the drums/bass/guitar in the other room. Best 200$ I spent on the studio by far.

I'm no professional and I don't condone trying this for yourself. I'm an engineer by nature and by trade so building things comes first over buying things for me.

Welcome to the world of acoustics. You are at the dangerous point right now. You know much more about acoustics than what you did a little while ago. You think you know much. In reality you now very little. So little that you do not even know how much you do not know. You will get through that phase soon enough, if you want to build your studio right.


You have written referring to it in the past, so you have at a least a peripheral knowledge that STC is not appropriate for evaluating music isolation. The Transmission Loss (TL) data has to be studied to see the low frequency isolation is.

Express your thoughts completely. Mineral fibre can be more expensive, the same price, or cheaper then fiberglas insulation, yet you have discounted it completely.

What is important is the low frequency isolation. The STC 69 wall has greater than 30 dB TL from 63 Hz up. Have a look at page 2 of the IAC Vision Wall brochure and the sound transmission loss table. Window 205 is closest to your window. It has 1/2" and 1/4" laminated glass with a 8-1/2" air gap. the TL at 63 Hz is 28 dB. The window design that has been suggested to you is:

3/8" and 1/2" thick glass (better)
float glass (worse)
~10" air gap (better)
totally independent frames for each leaf (the huge improvement for low frequency isolation!)

Mostly because of the last factor listed above, the required LF TL of the window to match the LF TL of the 69 STC wall is met.

As far as doors go, the TL required is met by using well sealed double doors.

You have not addressed one thing I alluded to. Here it is explicitly: keep to one forum and thread. Let us know which one it is.


Andre

I believe I know now a whole lot more than before but I by no means think I know enough to argue with you

I did discount mineral wool becuase of price but never thought it could be the same price or cheaper than fiberglass sound batts. I am in Merrillville, IN 46408.

I waited for an answer about the windows on the other forum for 2 days.

I got all the answers I needed about the windows and ordered the 3/4 and 1/2 float was still kinda of out of budget but for some reason all I heard was you saying "I'm Shocked!"

Now I have to figure out what the hell I am going to do with the existing drop ceiling in the building. At first I was just going to build my CR outer walls to it and then build the inner walls and put a Double 5/8 drywall ceiling from it with insulation on top but............None of this will give me an airtight space in between the 2 wall which will then not give the spring effect??

So now what?? Thats why I just stop worrrying about this becuase the more I read the more I want to do it all right and the further my hope of opening goes bye bye

But hey Thanks guys at least I got the windows right!!!!

Update on this....

CRAZY!!!!!!! People are shocked when they go into the booth and scream, shout, stomp, or whatever.........Can't hear them! But for some odd reason if we do it in the CR then they can hear us...Just Barley. LF are ever so present if we have the music cranked up but the sm7b records silences with the HPF on!

Thanks again for all of you guys help. This was my Number 1 Goal for my build. And I am happier than a J-Bird. I can finally record and crank the music and no one has to sit in the CR room with a bunch of cans on and turning off cell phones and no talking or breathing!

Just in case others are reading this old thread with some of the same glass questions here is a link to laminated glass acoustical ratings. The .030 and .060 P.V.B. figures in the chart are for the thickness size of the plastic in between the two layers of glass with .060 being the thicker choice. Cost wise, going with two panes of 1/4" laminated with 4" air space between them (get the .060 stuff if there is not a price difference) will probably be the best bang for the buck setup. Remember to have the top side of the panes tilted twords the rooms as this will cut down on glass/light reflections greatly (you want to see through the glass and not just a reflection of yourself). Laminated is also a safety product for codes but for full doors where a knee might go into the glass then using tempered laminated just makes sense. Link: Acoustical Performance of Glass and Wall Constructions - STC Table - California Glass Bending Corporation

Not to stir it up in here, but I'd like to point out Rod's definition of how thick of a sheet of glass to use.

From "Build It Like the Pros", Chapter 5, pg 89;

"This is one of the simpler things to do–just figure out what the weight of your mass on one side of the wall is, match this as a minimum for your thinnest piece of glass, and make sure you have at least 1/4" in thickness for the glass on the other side of the wall."

Hi everyone, I'm new here and this is my first post.

Save yourself the trouble and install a 42" LCD and some bullet cameras around your space that can provide site lines as well as security for a fraction of the cost.

BTW we use Oldcastle laminated glass, it is very economical.

Thanks
Blank

There is a typo in the book there (that is cleared up in the following paragraph) that was supposed to be worded as follows:

As I said - it is clarified in the next paragraph - but certainly doesn't paint the right picture if all you focus on is that - the way it's written would suggest 1/4" glass would be adequate on one side - and nothing could be further from the truth....

The paragraph following the typo reads:

Hope this clears things up a bit.......

Rod

OOOPS...You know, I do have to admit a bit of egg on my face for that one, but since that one entire line wasn't only what I focused on as I built, and simply overlooked that second half, as the important part of that sentence I took away was;

(emphasis is mine)

...and that was pretty much duplicated for BOTH walls/windows... which yielded the 3/4" glass on one wall and 1" glass on the other in my studio.

I simply didn't catch the error, and forgive me if I inadvertently perpetuated and error due to incomplete quotation.

Your follow up/my assumption that something as important as an opening in a wall would actually be so important that the entire assembly would require some serious thought, calculation, planning and review... and that one would prefer to minimize risk(s) by increasing the mass of the glass to at least a significant percentage greater than the mass of EACH wall.

Welcome to Gearslutz Studio Building!

The thread you posted on is 2-1/2 years old. The studio is complete, by my design, and the owner is very satisfied with the results.

Andre

Well dust my britches Andre. I didn't know you actually DESIGNED studios. If I may ask, exactly what did you give the client in terms of "design documents"? In otherwords...did you provide blueprints or what? Was the client's project local or distant? Did you oversee construction as well? And were Permits issued? I ask this last question because of some answers I got from a few BUILDING INSPECTION professionals who frequent and moderate a Building Inspectors forum. When I asked about Recording Studio design/construction vs codes...they virtually laughed. One suggested that in reality, it was impossible for some designs they inspected, to meet code, at least in their jurisdiction. And many expensive modifications were required, of which some resulted in less TL than desired. But this was quite a few years ago. Anyway, I was just curious as I have never seen any actual design work by you, and was interested in how you resolved any code issues.