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Room layout and listening position
Old 24th February 2008
  #1
Victor_Stoian
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Room layout and listening position

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Old 24th February 2008
  #2
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

Lightbulb

Victor,

Square is worse than nearly square, so you should be going away from square, not toward it! heh

I usually recommend not facing a corner because that puts another corner behind you which focuses reflections toward you. If the wall behind you is flat, as in the drawing, it's probably not so bad. But I would not take a small room and make it even smaller by walling off half of it as shown!

This article shows the best way to set up in a rectangular room:

RealTraps - How To Set Up a Room

--Ethan
Old 24th February 2008
  #3
Victor_Stoian
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Old 24th February 2008
  #4
Lives for gear
 
gullfo's Avatar
 

it would probably help to construct boundary walls to alter the dimensions to get a better ratio. you're current room is likely to have many mode problems. maybe it would help to see a room layout.
Old 24th February 2008
  #5
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Ethan Winer's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_Stoian View Post
according to M.Louden the best room ratio would be 1 x 1.5 x 2.1.
There's no such thing as a "best" ratio, and the size of the room is a factor too. I agree with Glenn that posting a layout is in order if you'd like our best advice.

--Ethan
Old 24th February 2008
  #6
Victor_Stoian
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Old 25th February 2008
  #7
Gear Nut
 

Guess I would do something like this - and have done, with results that are as good as can be expected in a conventional rectangular room this small.

I'd do conventional 2'x4' 16" OC + drywall on both sides and insulate to "soften" the side boundaries (compared to the concrete block,) create the desired ratio, provide the means to run electrical, and remove the asymmetrical window from the equation while providing better isolation from the outside, meanwhile creating 2'8" wide "Utility Hall" for storage, noisy CPU, etc. I'd not bother to put drywall on the "hallway" side of the new wall - just cover the insulation with fabric. If you want a wider "hall" 1:1.4:2.1 for the main room could work as an alternative.

Treat first reflections on side walls & ceiling with less dense stuff - and get as much stuff onto the front wall and corners + rear wall behind you that's as efficient in absorbtion down to the lowest freq. that you can find... you are going to need it.


G.
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Room layout and listening position-1-1.5-2.1.jpg  
Old 25th February 2008
  #8
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just curious, why this seating/monitor arrangement? how far are the monitors from the front wall? what type of monitors are they? does your desk prohibit putting the monitors up to the front wall and having your seating position 38% from the front wall instead?
Old 25th February 2008
  #9
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gullfo's Avatar
 

i'm more concerned about the SBIR by having the monitors so far out from the front wall. i would recommend just trying it with the monitors up to the front wall and seating 38% from the front wall and see what happens.
Old 25th February 2008
  #10
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gullfo View Post
i'm more concerned about the SBIR by having the monitors so far out from the front wall. i would recommend just trying it with the monitors up to the front wall and seating 38% from the front wall and see what happens.
Glenn I think you are on to something. He may want to so put a panel behind each speaker and also put some thicker panels flat on the back wall.

Glenn
Old 25th February 2008
  #11
Victor_Stoian
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Old 25th February 2008
  #12
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_Stoian View Post
38% from the front wall puts me 6' from the wall.
The monitors are ported on the rear. I read somewhere that such monitors should be placed at least 1'-2' away from the wall. That leaves less than 4' distance between me and the tweeters - thats to close for me.
This is why i chose the 38% from the back wall, where the monitor's back is 2' from the front wall and my head is 6' away from the front of the monitors.

V.
This is sort of the heart of the issue - your monitors may be overkill for the room.

At the moment your in the position of being forced to choose between imaging and freq. response.

My answer to that problem was to get EMES Blacks (Good overall performance, but more importantly - point source imaging at 3 ft. and under listening distance.)

Of course every room is different - and requires individual calculations for speaker/listener position and modal response ... but there does a appear to be a commonality among rooms this small, namely that modes tend to be more densely packed in the 100-200 Hz range, and more widely spaced at under 100Hz ... meaning that having a good dimensional ratio is critical to getting what modes are present under 100 Hz to "play nicely together." Yes, lots of bass trapping will still be of benefit (and necessary both to dampen the remaining peaks and nulls and to bring overall LF decay time down) but point is if you can get the speaker/listener positioning and SBIR working for you instead of against you, then bass-trapping & a well setup subwoofer system will be the icing on the cake rather than band-aids.

Unfortunately best placement may also mean listening distances of under 3 ft. - and this appears to be true for you regardless of whether you move your speakers closer to the front wall or not - and will still be the case if you alter your interior dimensions.

That's not to say that you might not be able to find an acceptable compromise through experimentation (clever use of the subwoofer may aid in this respect.)

G.
Old 26th February 2008
  #13
Victor_Stoian
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Old 26th February 2008
  #14
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Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Actually, my room setup is almost like the GIK Room Kit 2
Yea that set up is more for a home theater and uses the back 38% of the room (most of the time) because of screen size. You may want to try to place some thick absorption behind you to see if that might help.

Glenn
Old 26th February 2008
  #15
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for the sake of trying... could you check the polarity of the monitors? it could be one of them is reversed which is why you experience the sharp change of center. also, i'd recommend you put them up to the wall (1-2") and place them about 7' apart and then sit at 6', and angled them to a focus point at about 7'. let us know if this changes things.
Old 26th February 2008
  #16
Victor_Stoian
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Old 26th February 2008
  #17
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor_Stoian View Post
What do you mean exactly with "overkill": are the monitors too big, too loud? or maybe the opposite?
What is the problem with my monitors?

V.
I was referring mainly to their size ... the greater physical distance between the woofer and tweeter in larger monitors will to some extent dictate the distance you must sit away from them in order for them to act as a point source of sound - inside of this distance as you move your head around the differing distance between the woofer and tweeter to your ear will have a tonal impact on the range of frequencies around the crossover point where the two drivers overlap. On the typical two way system, this is around 1500 Hz, which is a rather critical range usually containing key mix elements.
This phenomenon could've accounted to some extent for the dissatisfaction you were experiencing with the conventional 38% from the front wall arrangement when you tried it before.

OTOH the BM12's aren't exactly overpowered - really the only thing the extra size seems to be getting you is a little more low freq. extension compared to the smaller speakers in the range which would be more than capable of sufficient output for the room (especially in conjunction with a subwoofer system) while providing a touch more flexibility in terms of good imaging with closer placement.

There's no inherent problem with the monitors themselves assuming they're used within the range of conditions they were designed for.

Anyhow this might all turn out to be a non-issue afterall - see below ...

G.
Old 26th February 2008
  #18
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gullfo View Post
... also, i'd recommend you put them up to the wall (1-2") and place them about 7' apart and then sit at 6', and angled them to a focus point at about 7'. let us know if this changes things.
This looks like it could work out well ... might need to compensate for the overall lift in low-end due to boundary proximity? The other factor that may arise is that to get the greatest benefit in terms of freq. response with this arrangement it looks like you would end up with the speakers spread a bit wider than what's ideal ... though you could use that spot (about 3 feet from the side walls, against the front wall) for the subwoofer/s and this might help to fill in the nulls under 120 Hz that may still be a problem with the suggested positioning (which looks to be fine for imaging barring other factors.)

G.
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