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pentagonal control room..good idea??
Old 7th January 2008
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

pentagonal control room..good idea??

hey guys...
asked a few months ago for advise on laying out my new studio, have done a lot of research since then (thanks ethan/glenn..you guys have been great) and have even seen the birth of the new studio design forum, great source of info...nice one

so.. i had a few problems (electric/gas/x'mas etc) which have now been sorted out,both main walls have been built,ceiling will be finished in the next few days so its time to layout the internal space....
had initially been toying with the idea of a pentagonal control room, for asthetic and functionality reasons but now that im aware of the golden room ratio im wondering should i go with rectangular and apply the proper treatment....

unfortunately (due to reasons out of my control) i'm stuck with a ceiling height of 3.3m which means the ideal size of my room would be...
height 3.3m
width 3.76m
length 4.58m...
this gives me 57 cubic meters...recommended minimum is 70.
seems very small to me..should i just go bigger and use alot of treatment

have also read that it doesn't really matter what size it is as long as it has enough bass trapping and some diffusion and thanks to you guys here ive got my plans for making both and will make as many as required to tame my room.....so is pentagonal ok??? if so, any ideas on what sizes would suit my space
so again im back to my original question (did i learn nothing)...
ANY ADVICE ON HOW TO BEST LAYOUT THIS SPACE

heres a few pics, hope its clear to makeout..


as always any advise much appreciated

tris.
Attached Thumbnails
pentagonal control room..good idea??-plan-view.jpg   pentagonal control room..good idea??-plan-view-pent.jpg  
Old 7th January 2008
  #2
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
I would stick with a larger rectangular. The other plan you have may help with the early reflections but still is going to have low end problems. With the rectangular you have more areas to place bass trapping and fixing the early reflection points is just a matter of putting absorption in those areas (easy fix).
Remember larger is always better.

Glenn
Old 7th January 2008
  #3
Gear Nut
 

If I were you I'd take advantage of the angled brick wall and make a potential problem part of the solution. A minimum angle of 7 degrees on each side of the control room should eliminate side to side flutter echo and create a reflection free zone without the need for absorbtion on the side wall first reflection points - allowing for a nice large window with great sight-lines through to the live room. Splayed side walls do however make modal response harder to predict (well beyond my knowledge/abilities) but you can still apply the ratios in a general way, assuming the average width to be equivalent to the ideal width dictated by the ratio. (I've indicated applicable ratios for each space in lieu of taking the time to figure out actual average dimensions as this depends a great deal on the particulars of the space/wall construction employed, etc.)

At any rate, the diagram I've attached makes the most intuitive sense to me; it allows for a generously proportioned live room, which will be large enough to actually be live, as well as a iso/dead room with good sight-lines to both the live room and the control room.

The soundlock will help with isolation between the Control Room/Studio proper/rest of the building (doors being the weakest link in terms of isolation,) as well as providing a place to stick your noisy computers, etc.

There are of course a number of other things to consider such as ventilation, electrical, lighting, audio systems, isolation from neighbors etc. which I'm not really in a position to comment on. This space does appear to have potential though and if I were in your shoes I'd consider having it professionally evaluated/designed if your in it for the long term.

G.
Attached Thumbnails
pentagonal control room..good idea??-warehousestudio.jpg  

Last edited by Græmatter Audio; 8th January 2008 at 05:02 AM.. Reason: Corrected a labeling error in the attached image (CR ratio)
Old 7th January 2008
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

thanks for the replys guys,
i like your plan graematter, thanks....is it ok having brick on one side of the control room and plasterboard on the other???
i had been thinking that maybe i should use the brick (with diffusion absorbers etc) walls for my drum room/liveroom/booths instead of a complete plasterboard room....
would it help the symmetry having similar materials...

also i think any possible noise will come from the bottom left corner side of my room so perhaps better to set up the control room there??
any thoughts...

i'd love to have it professionally designed but alas i just cant afford it, ive been paying rent now for 3 months and gotta get it up and running asap...
i managed to save a few g's for the main build but thats gone and im very broke at the mo.....but i have a new studio so its all gonna be worth it(right??)

thanks,
tris..
Old 7th January 2008
  #5
Lives for gear
 
gullfo's Avatar
 

because of the space you'll be constrained... graematter's design is quite nice. the control room you define will also work. in your design you can put a booth on either side of the control room and still have an ok sized live "room" but effectively 3 booths/air locks. depending on what requirements are most import. the 5 sided control room will give you control over the construct all around to it may be more balanced than having two different types of boundary walls. it may also be you could leverage the rehearsal room for a big live space when needed and connect video feeds for visibility.

here's some examples of 5 sided CRs:

Old 8th January 2008
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

hey gullfo,
thanks man, really like the designs...that was the type of thing i was initially thinking of,cool for doing controlled live stuff...what are the main external dimensions of that room in your drawings??
cheers,
tris...
Old 8th January 2008
  #7
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andrebrito's Avatar
 

yeah I agree with other posts, forget plan 1 , you end up with bad zones in the live room...

here's another possibility, forget about angles of walls in the control room, they are not correct. This is another idea. I would go for big control room, big live room and maybe a vocal booth.



Old 8th January 2008
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

hey andrebrito,
thanks for the design, yeah its cool, but have to admit im liking gullfo's plans and after re-reading his response i just realized what he meant about using the other rehearsal studio...
hmmm hadn't thought of that (im trying to stay as self contained as possible),...good idea!!!...
the rehearsal room isn't really that big but theres gonna be a huge open space to my left that we're hoping to turn into a blue screen area which is about 2.5 times the size of my whole studio, so im sure if needed i could arrange that the artists are out on "critical days" or at least for parts of the day.....hmmmmmmmmmmm have to have a chat with my landlord.

thanks again to all of you for posting your ideas..extremely appreciated, haven't had anyone knowledgeable in these matters to knock out ideas with and even though i've gained a mountain of acoustical knowledge over the past 3 months its kinda scary making this final decision...dont wanna **** it up
i think a big control room is a good idea as i'm going to be spending alot of time in there over the next few years with at least 3 to 5 other guys and having 3 booths seems like the way to go...good for pre-prod and live rhythm section recording and if really needed try to hire the empty space for "special occasions"....
yeah!!!! the fog is clearing

time to start drawing

thanks,
tris........
Old 8th January 2008
  #9
Gear Nut
 

It sounds like you've found what you're looking for in the design gulfo has presented; it certainly has the potential to work very well if properly executed. Your idea about using the brick wall as an "ambience enhancer" in a live room isn't a bad one - however I'm not sure how useful a contribution it will end up making (beyond aesthetics) in any of the possible arrangements that don't also compromise on either sight-lines or number of booths - with smaller booths you'll need to go with absorbtion and/or real diffusion instead.

I should note that the design I've proposed assumes a few things that I didn't bother to articulate in my previous post:

1. that there would be an additional (newly constructed) rigid multi-layer damped (insulated) boundary framed out along the existing angled brick wall. This would serve to provide the following:
a) a means to run and mount electrical wiring.
b) additional acoustic isolation from the outside world.
c) a means by which to fine-tune the front/side-wall angle if necessary to achieve a sufficient degree of splay.
d) minimize/negate the potentially deleterious effects of having side boundary walls of differing materials.
If isolation with the outside world is not an issue then I'd see little harm in leaving the brick opposite the door exposed (as well as the wall in the iso booth, though covered with some absorbtion) to retain a little visual character.

2. The design (1 small dead iso booth & 1 moderately sized "live" room with good sightlines) assumes that you'll primarily either be tracking
a) individual elements at a time, or
b) small ensembles where a little bleed is either not an issue or may possibly even be desirable.
It also assumes that a somewhat "lively" room ambience is something that you seek to capture in your recordings (of course if there is in fact an accessible, good sounding large room at hand in the building that you can use on those occasions where it would be most beneficial, then this should provide you with an excellent alternative.)

3. I've assumed that there's a DIY approach involved with a minimal budget - so I've proposed a solution that (short of building a well treated, well proportioned rectangle) would
a) IMO provide the lowest relative possibility of being screwed up to the point where the intended acoustic performance is totally undermined.
b) be doable with relatively low investment in materials and a little construction know-how and elbow grease.

4. I'd assumed that isolation from neighboring tenants on the other side of what I've assumed to be newly constructed walls, either through air or structural vibration to be a non-issue. At any rate I wouldn't count on them being less bothered by the possibility of constant resonant low-end leakage from your Control Room monitors than they would be by the occasional loud drum kit.

Anyhow, I've no vested interest in promoting my design over a myriad of other possible solutions - just felt the need to clarify in light of the questions raised.
Best of luck with whatever design you end up implementing!

G.

Last edited by Græmatter Audio; 8th January 2008 at 06:36 AM.. Reason: spelling
Old 9th January 2008
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

hey graemater..
all your ideas have helped me alot so please keep the advice comin,its all much appreciated
regarding the stone wall...do you reckon i should totally cover it..ie,plasterboard???.....i thought it might help with liveliness having it bare (with diffusion/absorbtion)...no??
regarding noise from outside...yeah i think the new walls are pretty damn good but so far havnt been able to do a complete sound/spill test but if it was gonna come through thats where it would come from..luckily outside the brick wall is a pretty quiet road with little to no traffic out there at all....
thanks again,
tris..
Old 9th January 2008
  #11
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
imaverysoundman,

I think you have gotten some GREAT ideas, but maybe you should list your budget. Not that these guys have listed million dollar builds, but I see dollar signs on them.
Needless to say you have lucked out to get some pretty nice layouts. People pay big bucks for this kind of stuff.

Glenn
Old 9th January 2008
  #12
Lives for gear
 
andrebrito's Avatar
 

They are so many options in studio design depending on what you want, how many persons you have working in the studio, etc etc...

I personally prefer to have a big control room and a big tracking room. A big control room for me is a must in terms of sound quality, while a large room vs smaller rooms is indeed a matter of choice. I've been in pro studios that had a large tracking room with variable acoustics and two small rooms (one live and one dead) and the sound engineers seemed to record almost everything in the large room. But maybe other sound eng. would have different choices in the same room.
Old 9th January 2008
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

hey glenn...
yep i know...gotta say this forum absolutely rocks...
made some money from tips i learned here, bought some gear due to advice gained here, made some more money from advice found here and built a studio from ideas and advice found here....

and i'm grateful for it all
and now were gonna have a tips wikki...yeahhh....

i try to give advice when i can but have definitely gotten more from this forum than i've given...although in my everyday life im always helping people out so i suppose that levels it off.

so yeah i agree, for this kind of advice a few quid should be given, maybe we could subscribe (all us low budgeters that wanna try to improve our spaces) to gullfo and crew for levels of advice...i know you're all highy skilled acoustical design engineers and maybe with a high volume of slutz needing various levels of help it could be done cheaper (not saying your expensive, just that im broke)....im sure there are many like me who are just about keeping the wolves at bay financially, but our passion drives us on...
regarding budget i got the materials that were needed to complete the internal rooms just before xmas...and maxed my credit card yesterday..no smokes today and cant make any cash till this weekend.

think ive done the classic **** up of trying to do it on the cheap and ending up paying more and getting less...
its cost me 12grand so far (although for ireland that aint bad at all!!!)
shoulda gone to specsavers!!!!!
seriously tho think ill pm gullfo and get a quote...dont know if i can afford it but should probably check first...
thanks again to all who have replied...
hope i can help you out someday...if your ever in dublin gimme a buzz and ill get you the creamiest pint of Guinness you've ever had.
cheers,
tris..
Old 9th January 2008
  #14
Lives for gear
 
andrebrito's Avatar
 

imaverysoundman:

your biggest investment in studio construction is planning !! 4 real !
Old 9th January 2008
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

i hear ya bro....
Old 9th January 2008
  #16
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaverysoundman View Post
hey glenn...
yep i know...gotta say this forum absolutely rocks...
made some money from tips i learned here, bought some gear due to advice gained here, made some more money from advice found here and built a studio from ideas and advice found here....

and i'm grateful for it all
and now were gonna have a tips wikki...yeahhh....

i try to give advice when i can but have definitely gotten more from this forum than i've given...although in my everyday life im always helping people out so i suppose that levels it off.

so yeah i agree, for this kind of advice a few quid should be given, maybe we could subscribe (all us low budgeters that wanna try to improve our spaces) to gullfo and crew for levels of advice...i know you're all highy skilled acoustical design engineers and maybe with a high volume of slutz needing various levels of help it could be done cheaper (not saying your expensive, just that im broke)....im sure there are many like me who are just about keeping the wolves at bay financially, but our passion drives us on...
regarding budget i got the materials that were needed to complete the internal rooms just before xmas...and maxed my credit card yesterday..no smokes today and cant make any cash till this weekend.

think ive done the classic **** up of trying to do it on the cheap and ending up paying more and getting less...
its cost me 12grand so far (although for ireland that aint bad at all!!!)
shoulda gone to specsavers!!!!!
seriously tho think ill pm gullfo and get a quote...dont know if i can afford it but should probably check first...
thanks again to all who have replied...
hope i can help you out someday...if your ever in dublin gimme a buzz and ill get you the creamiest pint of Guinness you've ever had.
cheers,
tris..
This is my second invite for a Guinness just today on Gearslutz. You guys are talking my lango!!!!!!!!! heh

Glenn
Old 10th January 2008
  #17
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras View Post
This is my second invite for a Guinness just today on Gearslutz. You guys are talking my lango!!!!!!!!! heh

Glenn
i think you should accept!!!


so gullfo..i pm'd you, not sure if you've seen it but i asked for a quote on applying that drawing to my plans....ive got till monday or ill have to make it up myself so if ya wanna send me a pm id appreciate it...
cheers to allthumbsup
tris...
Old 10th January 2008
  #18
Lives for gear
 
jamsmith's Avatar
 

Where did you get that design from? Its is almost exactly identical to my old studio! Even the dimensions are close. Hell, I am not going argue with someone who may no more than me, but I would choose that over rectangular. And I did. And I was extremely happy. I too had a celing problem as I had a steel beam runing over me. I ended up using pine wood paneling or the 2 back walls and celiing. It may not be scientific, but I like they way raw wood reflects sound over other substances. Plus the shape of the paneling (3/8" grooves) added a little bit of diffusion. The front 3 walls and the celing up to where they outer 2 met the back 2 was covered completly in Markertek acoustic foam. The floor was lo pile carpet. The console was about 4 feet from the glass. The rack was directly behind me in that rear corner. Alesis Monitor Ones, on the console, JBL 4311s where on stands nearly upgainst the foam about near the outer corners of the front 3 walls. This room sang! I could stand anywhere between the console and the rack and heard the same response so room node interaction was not a problem.

Ok, here is the weird part. The back corner - huge bass build up. Perhaps due the large (double wide) rack behind me, it didnt seem to affect me. We were going to but a trap back there. One day I was mixing a rap record and I wanted to hear the bass "cranked up". I put the mix on on the JBLs and stepped behind the rack and stood in the corner. Like sitting in a boom car! Kept the corner and used it alot (cheaper than buying a sub and another amp!)

I will post photos when I can get them scanned.
Old 10th January 2008
  #19
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by imaverysoundman View Post
i think you should accept!!!


so gullfo..i pm'd you, not sure if you've seen it but i asked for a quote on applying that drawing to my plans....ive got till monday or ill have to make it up myself so if ya wanna send me a pm id appreciate it...
cheers to allthumbsup
tris...
Gullfo is pretty new here at GS you may want to drop him a email from his website.
Running Brook Design - Recording Studio Design Services I believe is him


Glenn
Old 10th January 2008
  #20
Gear Maniac
 

hey jamsmith,
like the idea of a vocal booth in the back corner (was in a private pm)..might try to apply that into the build...
cheers for that glenn, ive sent him a mail so hopefully it'll be a go'er...

thanks again..
tris....
Old 14th January 2008
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

its a go'er..............
Old 20th January 2008
  #22
Gear Maniac
 

well...gullfo has just mailed me my new studio plans..
lookin pretty cool i must say......
so, roll on monday, get this show on the road!!!!
yyeeeeeaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!1
thanks again to everyone who gave advice...
tris................
Old 20th January 2008
  #23
Gear Guru
 
Glenn Kuras's Avatar
Yea keep us posted on how it is coming along.

Glenn
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