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Who is using Green Glue in their studio build? Modular Synthesizers
Old 4th September 2007
  #1
Who is using Green Glue in their studio build?

Looks interesting. Not cheap.
Does it work?
Is it worth the cost?
Any comments from Green Gluee users?
Old 4th September 2007
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
Looks interesting. Not cheap.
Does it work?
Is it worth the cost?
Any comments from Green Gluee users?
I use it. It works really well. If you knock on a wall with the green glue inside its almost like knocking on brick. It is very cheap compared to sheetblok and is more effective.
Old 4th September 2007
  #3
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Binturong's Avatar
 

i find it awesome. Use it in between to sheets of drywall and it is very nice.
Old 4th September 2007
  #4
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DSD_Mastering's Avatar
I used 27 cases of it in my build. This stuff is nasty if it gets on tools or anything else. It works though. I thought it was thicker, but since you have to put about 2-3 tubes of it on one sheet or drywall, it's a good thing. My contractors even put it between the plywood floor layers and all junctions.

Regards,
Bruce
Old 4th September 2007
  #5
Gear Head
 

should be cheaper

I know this isn't on the 'low end' board....but this stuff in all reality SHOULD be much cheaper.

There is another thread called "gluing two pieces of drywall together" that had some good info on Green Glue. I haven't used it but have heard rave reviews on it. My view is that there has to be something out there that is chemically similar at maybe 1/2 or 1/3 the cost. Green Glue is latex based (latex is cheap) so I'm wondering if there is some other factor that accounts for the high price...

It would be nice to find something cheaper that works just as good and put the difference into more gear. Just my worthless .02....

Jaymes
Old 4th September 2007
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymes G View Post
I know this isn't on the 'low end' board....but this stuff in all reality SHOULD be much cheaper.

There is another thread called "gluing two pieces of drywall together" that had some good info on Green Glue. I haven't used it but have heard rave reviews on it. My view is that there has to be something out there that is chemically similar at maybe 1/2 or 1/3 the cost. Green Glue is latex based (latex is cheap) so I'm wondering if there is some other factor that accounts for the high price...

It would be nice to find something cheaper that works just as good and put the difference into more gear. Just my worthless .02....

Jaymes
While doing reasearch I came across this stuff....Quiet Glue.
Seems to provide a similiar function but a little less expensive.

http://www.quietsolution.com/html/qu...FSgRGgodIl3mZQ
Old 4th September 2007
  #7
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Wiggum, Ralph's Avatar
 

A buddy of mine was building a small studio in a busy warehouse/building. Their next door neighbors were a couple of studios and a puppet building company. When he was done with the initial contruction, noise from their neighbors was pooring in all directions. He tried everything and nothing seemed to work. I convinced him to buy some Green Glue. After he used it he called me immediately and was praising the stuff up and down. He believes that it is well worth the price. And if he was to do it again, he would just buy that stuff instead of all the other failed attempts he tried.
Old 4th September 2007
  #8
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Try Butyl caulking at around $3 a tube. It has the same properties, stays sticky - rubbery - acts as a damper - acts as an adheasive. Butyl is used in EVERY insulated glass unit ever made as the "Glue" between the glass and spacer. It will allow movement but will stay sticky. Butyl has a proven track record with commercial high rises using insulated glass and you know how many decades they have been around. Latex based materials are like you said are cheaper to produce, however like Monster Cables, anyone can be a middleman, rebrand or spec, and then sell the product at any price they feel like and it's not uncommon to price things very high to make people believe that the product is the best there is when like Monster cable we know what is really going on.
Old 4th September 2007
  #9
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Anderson's Avatar
 

In all studios I build with my company we put a layer of 4 to 8mm of asphalt in the resilient sandwich (so between the two gypsum boards layers, sometimes we add other stuff too - depends on the needs really.)

In europe it's commonly refered to as "Roofing".

It's cheap per m², around 6-7€, max.

Works very good at dampening the vibrations and at adding mass to the wall (if you need that part, not always the case).

Green glue... it's way too expensive for what it is. And asphalt-type layers work much better.
Old 4th September 2007
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering View Post
I used 27 cases of it in my build. This stuff is nasty if it gets on tools or anything else. It works though. I thought it was thicker, but since you have to put about 2-3 tubes of it on one sheet or drywall, it's a good thing. My contractors even put it between the plywood floor layers and all junctions.

Regards,
Bruce
Hey Bruce, that's a lot of green on Green Glue
Did you use 2 or 3 tubes per sheet and did you get a bulk discount?
Old 4th September 2007
  #11
84K
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84K's Avatar
dont sniff the green glue
Old 4th September 2007
  #12
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DSD_Mastering's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
Hey Bruce, that's a lot of green on Green Glue
Did you use 2 or 3 tubes per sheet and did you get a bulk discount?
I mostly used 2 tubes per 8ft. sheet of drywall and yes, I did get a discount per case.
There was NOTHING on this project that was inexpensive. If I have to hear the words "Custom" or "Proprietary" again, I'll scream.

Regards,
Bruce
Old 4th September 2007
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering View Post
I mostly used 2 tubes per 8ft. sheet of drywall and yes, I did get a discount per case.
There was NOTHING on this project that was inexpensive. If I have to hear the words "Custom" or "Proprietary" again, I'll scream.

Regards,
Bruce
LOL! I'm sure it was worth the extra effort.
Without getting too noozy...can I ask where you purchased you GG?

You can PM or email if you'd like.

Jim Salamone
[email protected]
Old 5th September 2007
  #14
So we're taling about 2 sheets of 5/8 on the interior side and 2 sheets of 5/8 on the exterior side. Is the general feeling that benefit of green glue is money well spent as opposed to adding another layer of 5/8" on the exterior wall?
Old 5th September 2007
  #15
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Anderson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
So we're taling about 2 sheets of 5/8 on the interior side and 2 sheets of 5/8 on the exterior side. Is the general feeling that benefit of green glue is money well spent as opposed to adding another layer of 5/8" on the exterior wall?
A few quick points:

- Adding a 3rd layer of gypsum boards will actually reduce your STC in LF or at best not change it.
- It's important that you vary the type of materials. For ex, on one side, use 2x Gypsum boards, on the other side, use 1x 12 or 18mm OSB or MDF and then 1x Gypsum. This way you will get higher STC.
- use proper Rockwool of a density of no less than 40kg/m³, better with 70kg/m³ and leave a big air gap between the two partitions (min 14cms). Use double studs construction, the studs from each partition should never touch and be decoupled on PE30 at least.

Adding a resilient in sandwich between the 2 layers of Gypsum or wood will effectively lower the freq of resonance of the structure by adding mass and due to the dampening property of the material etc.

Also, a quick remark about the infos displayed on the QuietGlue website. They state:

"Construction - 24 OC wood stud walls w/R13:

- 5/8” gypsum on both sides: STC 39

- Mass-loaded vinyl beneath 5/8” gypsum, both sides: STC 43

- 5/8” gypsum sandwich (2 layers gyp each side), with QuietGlue between: STC 56"

You can see that they don't compare equivalent structures. A good comparison would require that ALL structures compared use the same basic inner stud + rockwool structure + double leaf of Gypsum on each side. This is not a proper comparison - since the amount of gypsum varies and the type of mounting too. Mass-loaded vinyl looses most of it's efficiency if it's not mounted in sandwich between layers of gypsum. And it is the case here it seems.

If you use a double gypsum board structure you reach already 48dB of STC. Add a layer of 4mm of asphalt in rolls in sandwhich between each double layer of Gypsum and you get very close to 56dB (lab measurement, not real life measurement).

It's not that obvious that those product really add anything. That they are expensive, is a fact.
Old 5th September 2007
  #16
Excellent info. Thank you for your detailed and experienced advice. thumbsup
Good to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anderson View Post
A few quick points:

- Adding a 3rd layer of gypsum boards will actually reduce your STC in LF or at best not change it.
- It's important that you vary the type of materials. For ex, on one side, use 2x Gypsum boards, on the other side, use 1x 12 or 18mm OSB or MDF and then 1x Gypsum. This way you will get higher STC.
- use proper Rockwool of a density of no less than 40kg/m³, better with 70kg/m³ and leave a big air gap between the two partitions (min 14cms). Use double studs construction, the studs from each partition should never touch and be decoupled on PE30 at least.

Adding a resilient in sandwich between the 2 layers of Gypsum or wood will effectively lower the freq of resonance of the structure by adding mass and due to the dampening property of the material etc.

Also, a quick remark about the infos displayed on the QuietGlue website. They state:

"Construction - 24 OC wood stud walls w/R13:

- 5/8” gypsum on both sides: STC 39

- Mass-loaded vinyl beneath 5/8” gypsum, both sides: STC 43

- 5/8” gypsum sandwich (2 layers gyp each side), with QuietGlue between: STC 56"

You can see that they don't compare equivalent structures. A good comparison would require that ALL structures compared use the same basic inner stud + rockwool structure + double leaf of Gypsum on each side. This is not a proper comparison - since the amount of gypsum varies and the type of mounting too. Mass-loaded vinyl looses most of it's efficiency if it's not mounted in sandwich between layers of gypsum. And it is the case here it seems.

If you use a double gypsum board structure you reach already 48dB of STC. Add a layer of 4mm of asphalt in rolls in sandwhich between each double layer of Gypsum and you get very close to 56dB (lab measurement, not real life measurement).

It's not that obvious that those product really add anything. That they are expensive, is a fact.
Old 5th September 2007
  #17
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asphalt as in ....tar or.....what would the equivalent be in the US?
Old 5th September 2007
  #18
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Anderson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcamlet View Post
asphalt as in ....tar or.....what would the equivalent be in the US?

This will do just fine: Derbigum - Main

Take the thick, heavy one.
Old 5th September 2007
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcamlet View Post
asphalt as in ....tar or.....what would the equivalent be in the US?

Rolled roofing? Available almost at any home center??
Old 6th September 2007
  #20
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dubrichie's Avatar
Anderson, about this asphalt layer.

i understand what you are getting at, but could you please link to a specific product web page for something you would recommend that is available here in europe?

im not quite sure whether you mean an asphalt-type adhesive or a membrane type thing on a roll.

if it is a membrane on a roll as such, how do you secure the sandwich tightly without puncturing the membrane? how do you sandwich it so tightly that it will not sag and decouple over time?

thanks,
Old 6th September 2007
  #21
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Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Never used green glue in any build...

Seems like a hip idea, but who knows about the long term... 5-10 years down the line? Will it get harder & transmit MORE energry? That surely won't help in a studio... anybody have a DL on the long-term effects of green glue?

Anywhoo... Jimmy... one of the BEST things you can have your builders do is to put "blocking" in... horiztonal cross pieces between the studs.

Regardless of how many layers of drywall & whatever that'll break up the resonant frequncy of the wall... prevent it from going into oscillation at any one specific frequency & turning into a giant tone generator.

Kinda like these... 'stripped' interior wall shots before the insulatiuon & top layers went on...
Attached Thumbnails
Who is using Green Glue in their studio build?-cable_access.jpg   Who is using Green Glue in their studio build?-meth-build_blocking-detail.jpg  
Old 6th September 2007
  #22
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Anderson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dubrichie View Post
Anderson, about this asphalt layer.

i understand what you are getting at, but could you please link to a specific product web page for something you would recommend that is available here in europe?

im not quite sure whether you mean an asphalt-type adhesive or a membrane type thing on a roll.

if it is a membrane on a roll as such, how do you secure the sandwich tightly without puncturing the membrane? how do you sandwich it so tightly that it will not sag and decouple over time?

thanks,
On the budget side, use Derbigum SP4 FR. There are so many brands of those of equivalent quality, some denser and heavier sometimes though, just have a look at it at the provider's shop and decide there. The Imperial Roofing is good as well on the budget side. Thicker Asphalt comes in rectangles of 60/120 here. But usually, I go with the derbigum or imperial. Asphalt is really VERY heavy and can be a bit more difficult to work with (8mm to 10mm thick).

They are not adhesive.

When we have laid the first layer of gypsum properly (on PE30 and metal studs since they behave better at LF than wood - but are harder to make complex shapes with, you need experienced ppl to work with them properly) we then come with the layer of Roofing which is stapled (with a big one :D ) to the first layer of gypsum so that it will hold long enough for the workers to come and place the second layer of gypsum. If you have built your stud structure properly (every 60cms a stud etc) then when you have placed and screwed properly the second layer it is very, VERY tight. It becomes like one whole block really. It won't degrade in time - trust me on that. Another trick is to heat up the roofing and it will glue to the gypsum boards, but for safety reasons there is no way we do this on a construction site.

The screws to hold the second layer of gypsum in the studs indeed go through the resilient layer, but that's not an issue at all. It's the resilience (so added mass and dampening) that matters. It's not like a membrane from a Bass Trap that should be vibrating at a certain frequency. This is supposed to be interted and make the sandwich inert and heavy. Completely opposite principals, that are both using "membranes".

See on the top of the pic you can see a bit of the substructure. The wood was added because those diffusors are hell heavy.
Attached Thumbnails
Who is using Green Glue in their studio build?-dsc02845gs.jpg   Who is using Green Glue in their studio build?-dsc02876gs.jpg  
Old 6th September 2007
  #23
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Mr. Anderson,

you rule..

thanks for the tips.
Old 6th September 2007
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs View Post
Anywhoo... Jimmy... one of the BEST things you can have your builders do is to put "blocking" in... horiztonal cross pieces between the studs.
Interesting... I've never heard of such a thing in either construction or studio build manuals. If any sound penetrates the outer wall, I can only imagine this large, interconnected wall would be more easily able to transfer vibration to the other side through acting as a giant diaphram.

Not saying it won't work, but in theory it could do more harm than good. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
Old 6th September 2007
  #25
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Maybe the U.S. equivelant to what he is talking about would be the rolled roofing felt that is rolled out and stapled in place on a wood roof before the shingles get nailed on over it. Roofing felt is asphalt impregnated felt and comes in two variations here, 15 lb. and a heavier 30 lb. (more asphalt), in rolls and is a very cheap per square foot material. Looks like you would attach your first layer of drywall to the studs then staple in place the roofing felt as the next layer, then another layer of drywall goes over that and gets screwed to the studs. This certainly would be a cheap easy way to build a wall sandwich as well as carry over to building a ceiling. I could see building this type of sandwich using resilant channel metal studs between the main wall framing and the first layer of drywall also. Using the resilant channel metal studs would give a nice layer of air space and have less hard transfer points of wall attachment to the main studs.

So the wall would be from the studio going outward: drywall - roofing felt - drywall (all screwed to the resilant channel) - resilant channel (screwed to the studs horizontally) - studs (studs are filled with rockwool) - outside wall (more drywall if it's an interior partition wall). Say you use a standard 2 x 4 for the wall studs (3-1/2 inches width), you could use 3" rockwool in it and you would then have an airspace of 1/2 inch plus the 1 inch or so of airspace that the resilant channel forms for an airspace layer. This sounds like an easy buildout compared to other methods. Maybe use 1/2 inch drywall for one layer and 5/8 inch drywall for the other layer of the sandwich to keep cost in line and have different masses come into play. Is this what you have in mind? Who wants to try it?

I see the same principals used in typical wood floor home constuction here in the U.S. for the last 50 years. You have your subfloor, then they would use rolled roofing felt or rosin paper and attach the 3/4 inch thick wood floor strips over it. This allowed for wood movement and would keep the floor sqeaking down (isolating the floor). The principle is the same for the modern "Pergo" type floor, subfloor - 1/8 inch foam - Pergo, which allows material expansion/contraction and isolation. So the idea of an isolated sandwich is a common one.
Old 6th September 2007
  #26
I see rockwool mentioned a bit. I'm guessing that's insulation.
Is it comparable to R19 and how does it compare to Owens Corning 703/705?
Old 6th September 2007
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6strings View Post
Interesting... I've never heard of such a thing in either construction or studio build manuals. If any sound penetrates the outer wall, I can only imagine this large, interconnected wall would be more easily able to transfer vibration to the other side through acting as a giant diaphram.

Not saying it won't work, but in theory it could do more harm than good. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

It works. the more rigid a structure is the less it will vibrate. I haven't gone to quite the extreme as in this photo, but i still have strategically placed some blocking to make the wall more rigid. prior to doing this, i could easily vibrate the studs with no effort, after doing it, they are very solid.
Old 6th September 2007
  #28
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Actually using the typical 1/8 inch thick under "Pergo" flooring closed cell foam might work instead of the roofing felt in the sandwich too. It would be an isolater (probably a better isolator), be a cheap per square foot material, and be easy to install (just staple or box tape to the drywall). It would not have the mass like 30 lb. roofing felt but since you are using it as an isolator, do you really need mass in that position of the sandwich?
Old 6th September 2007
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Actually using the typical 1/8 inch thick under "Pergo" flooring closed cell foam might work instead of the roofing felt in the sandwich too. It would be an isolater (probably a better isolator), be a cheap per square foot material, and be easy to install (just staple or box tape to the drywall). It would not have the mass like 30 lb. roofing felt but since you are using it as an isolator, do you really need mass in that position of the sandwich?
All very good ideas. Thanks.
The question is...roofing felt or laminate isolator...better, the same, not as good as Green Glue??
Old 6th September 2007
  #30
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Does anybody know where is the best place to get acoustic paint?
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