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Who is using Green Glue in their studio build? Modular Synthesizers
Old 6th September 2007
  #31
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Maybe a better question would be which assembly has the best cost to performance rating without requiring 3 foot thick walls? I doubt GG is in the running as for that kind of money you could pour alot of concrete.
Old 6th September 2007
  #32
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I used a case of Green Glue when I built my new control room last year, and the stuff is fantastic. I didn't put it on super-thick, I think I used one tube per sheet (memory's a bit hazy, must've been the fumes...). I'm sure more is better, but some is better than none.

The wall between the CR and tracking area is:
• Double 5/8" drywall with GG, floating on rubber iso pads and gap caulked with USG Sheetrock acoustical sealant
• Steel studs with rockwool insulation
• Another double 5/8" drywall layer

Works great!
Old 6th September 2007
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Maybe the U.S. equivelant to what he is talking about would be the rolled roofing felt that is rolled out and stapled in place on a wood roof before the shingles get nailed on over it. Roofing felt is asphalt impregnated felt and comes in two variations here, 15 lb. and a heavier 30 lb. (more asphalt), in rolls and is a very cheap per square foot material.
I don't think he is referring to felt paper (commonly referred to as tar paper over here) I do not believe it is thick enough to result in any meaningful dampening in a studio wall system, although I am by no means an expert. I think what he is referring to is rolled roofing which is used on flat or slightly pitched roofs.

I myself have always wondered about ice and water shield, which has an adhesive side.

http://www.na.graceconstruction.com/...2693-RCCMC.pdf

I recall it being more expensive than rolled roofing though, and would likely require two layers to equal the mass of the rolled roofing.
Old 7th September 2007
  #34
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Isle Of Weight (Aaron) is using it in his build. I was skeptical because of the high cost, and the fact that I had never heard of it.

But I have to say, it is pretty amazing. It makes a pretty huge difference, and in a space-challenged area, it is the way to go, I think.
Old 7th September 2007
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
It would not have the mass like 30 lb. roofing felt but since you are using it as an isolator, do you really need mass in that position of the sandwich?
I hope this will be clear enough:

In LF: Soundproofing is diminishing of around 6dB/ Octave (dimishing with lower Freq). Then you also have a big dip in the soundproofing which is situatued at the resonance freq of the wall/partition. For this frequency, the partition vibrates with a big amplitude and therefore transmission of sound is very good. You have to make sure those resonance frequencies are as low as they can be.

Law of mass: For frequencies higher than the resonance frequency of the partition, soundproofing is theoritically augmenting in a linear way with frequency. Theory says it should be around 6dB/Octave, but in reality we see more 3 to maybe 5dB/octave. Every time you double the mass, in theory you also gain around 6dB, but then again, in practice, expect 4 to 5dB/octave. This is the Law of Mass

So if, you have a partition of say, 50kg/m² with an STC of 50 dBs @ 100Hz, then Iso should go up of 4dB per octave. And if you double the mass to 100kg/m², then your STC will gain 4dB @ 100Hz, so 54dB. (BTW, don't forget that 50dB+50dB= ~53dB.)

In higher frequencies: In those freq, you can find big dips in soundproofing which are the result of the "coïncidence" phenomenon. This happens when a sound wave hits say, a partition wall, with a certain angle and at a certain frequency, so that it gets excited at it's modal freq and makes it flex. Same phenomenon happens than in LF, the partition is transmitting a lot of energy at this freq.

It is good to get this "coincidence¨freq to be as high as possible. You can achieve this by using high density materials in your wall. The lowest of those "coïncidence" freq is called the "critical" freq. Over that precise critical freq, the mass law does not apply anymore, and soundproofing is gaining in theory around 9dB/octave.
Old 7th September 2007
  #36
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Did a little searching for info and maybe the U.S. equivelant is 90 lb. rolled roofing. Comes in the standard 36 inches wide by 36 feet long, covers 108 square feet per roll, and weighs 90 pounds per roll. One tip I saw when installing this stuff is to cut to length and leave flat on the floor overnight to get rid of the bending of the material from being rolled up.
Old 7th September 2007
  #37
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Also found this on using rolled roofing in place of high density vinyl for home video

Soundproofing On a Budget
Old 7th September 2007
  #38
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I am in the process of adding my second layer of 5/8" drywall to my build out. Green Glue all the way baby!!!
Old 8th September 2007
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grevan View Post
It makes a pretty huge difference, and in a space-challenged area, it is the way to go, I think.
That's exactly one of Green Glue's benefits, giving the equivalent isolation of much thicker materials in a smaller space. And I'm guessing it's a lot easier to work with than 90lb roofing paper heh
Old 8th September 2007
  #40
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"That's exactly one of Green Glue's benefits, giving the equivalent isolation of much thicker materials in a smaller space. And I'm guessing it's a lot easier to work with than 90lb roofing paper"

Sounds like Green Glue Hype to me. If you are really so "space challanged" that the 3/16" of an inch thickness difference between using 90lb rolled roofing and glue is going to make a difference I feel sorry for you. As for labor, any glueing is going to cost more labor period. With the roofing you roll it out to length, cut it, let it sit overnight if you are not in a hurry and it will go up easier. You then staple it to the wall and you are done with that layer, but you can skip the rolling it out on the floor step and just unroll it directly on the wall and staple as you go. With any glueing operation it takes more time to just sqeeze out the two tubes of caulk per sheet of drywall. You then install the sheet of drywall and 24 hours or more later you have to come back and remove the installation screws, at least with the roofing it can be a one time operation saving labor right there. If you want to go the glue route then at least only spend $3 a tube and use Butyl caulking. Anytime I see several threads in the forums praising an expensive item when there are MUCH cheaper equals it raises my radar that the item is being pimped. If it works for you then great but lets not pretend that GG is anything but a rebranded super marked-up product.
Old 9th September 2007
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Anytime I see several threads in the forums praising an expensive item when there are MUCH cheaper equals it raises my radar that the item is being pimped. If it works for you then great but lets not pretend that GG is anything but a rebranded super marked-up product.
Wow...I make a little joke about not wanting to lug around 90 pound rolls of roof felt and all of a sudden I'm a Green Glue "pimp"...lighten up.
Old 9th September 2007
  #42
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What do you think the two sheets of drywall that come end taped together from the supplier that you are going to glue together weigh LOL . . . not trying to shoot the inocent's in the crossfire so it's a deal, I'll lighten up. Wishing you a great day in the studio HockeyMike!
Old 9th September 2007
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
What do you think the two sheets of drywall that come end taped together from the supplier that you are going to glue together weigh LOL
Yeah, after wrestling with 30 sheets of 5/8" in my last studio build I almost didn't have the strength to lift my beer...ALMOST...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Wishing you a great day in the studio HockeyMike!
Right back atcha
Old 9th September 2007
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
Sounds like Green Glue Hype to me....Anytime I see several threads in the forums praising an expensive item when there are MUCH cheaper equals it raises my radar that the item is being pimped. If it works for you then great but lets not pretend that GG is anything but a rebranded super marked-up product.
You may very well be right but have you had a bad experience with Green Glue?
Old 9th September 2007
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamz View Post
I see rockwool mentioned a bit. I'm guessing that's insulation.
Is it comparable to R19 and how does it compare to Owens Corning 703/705?
No it's totally different. It is indeed insulation, but mineral wool has much more mass than Owens Corning. We used bats and boards of the Roxul brand. Incredible stuff.

As far as glue goes... green, brown, pink... just glue EVERYTHING! Our floors are a 12 layer sandwich that stopped the sound of a printing press that used to be in our building... We only noticed it was gone when the elevator opened on their floor and it was empty! We used PL-400 in the construction phase and gorilla glue in the finish phase.
Old 11th September 2007
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gainstages View Post
It works. the more rigid a structure is the less it will vibrate. I haven't gone to quite the extreme as in this photo, but i still have strategically placed some blocking to make the wall more rigid. prior to doing this, i could easily vibrate the studs with no effort, after doing it, they are very solid.
Right. The other thing blocking does is break up the size & resonent frequenices of the wall cavities.

Your 'standard' wall might be 19 feet long and 10 feet tall, studs are 16" OC. Without blocking the space or "chamber" between each stud is the exact same size. When you rap on the wall or LF hits it, all the chambers will have the same resonant note... 'A flat' or whatever since they're all tuned the same, like the top of an acoustic guitar.

Adding the blocking makes the vertical sizes of each "chamber" different & therefore, the wall can't & won't resonate at any specific frequency.

The trick is to put them in randomly.
Old 11th September 2007
  #47
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Extra case

I've got an extra case of green glue from a recent build. PM me if any interest and I'll do an actual count of the tubes.
Old 11th September 2007
  #48
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Isle of Weight's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
"That's exactly one of Green Glue's benefits, giving the equivalent isolation of much thicker materials in a smaller space. And I'm guessing it's a lot easier to work with than 90lb roofing paper"

Sounds like Green Glue Hype to me. If you are really so "space challanged" that the 3/16" of an inch thickness difference between using 90lb rolled roofing and glue is going to make a difference I feel sorry for you. As for labor, any glueing is going to cost more labor period. With the roofing you roll it out to length, cut it, let it sit overnight if you are not in a hurry and it will go up easier. You then staple it to the wall and you are done with that layer, but you can skip the rolling it out on the floor step and just unroll it directly on the wall and staple as you go. With any glueing operation it takes more time to just squeeze out the two tubes of caulk per sheet of drywall. You then install the sheet of drywall and 24 hours or more later you have to come back and remove the installation screws, at least with the roofing it can be a one time operation saving labor right there. If you want to go the glue route then at least only spend $3 a tube and use Butyl caulking. Anytime I see several threads in the forums praising an expensive item when there are MUCH cheaper equals it raises my radar that the item is being pimped. If it works for you then great but lets not pretend that GG is anything but a rebranded super marked-up product.

wow, I dont wanna fight But I think you're totally wrong about this product
its not a glue and its not caulk! Its a viscoelastic compound. It actually has the consistency of ketchup so its much easier to squeeze out than sound caulk. Maybe before you blast a product the research should be done. Honestly I'm still building so I would not want to comment on how well it works but I just wanted to say its by no means a glue or a caulk. My research also, showed me that other products like this was actually more $$ like, in the $20-30 per tube range

I did my research on the John L sayers site all of the moderators over there are professionals buliding and designing studios for decades
I would start there....
Recording Studio Design :: Index

greenglue also has had alot of third party tests done...
Soundproofing Topics


I would suggest to start with this info or even research some more then make a decision on its worth

AA.
Old 11th September 2007
  #49
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"Its a viscoelastic compound"

That's the fancy way to say it it has a gum like quality that will not dry up, by the way, Butyl caulking is also a viscoelastic compond.

"Maybe before you blast a product the research should be done"

I'm not blasting Green Glue, I'm just saying that there is an equivant at $3 a tube, if you want to spend more go right ahead and I wish you the best. I did do my research, in fact I checked the Green Glue site and on it they verify that they are not the manufacturers, I think they call them their "partners" but it's a fancy way to say that Green Glue is a rebranded or spec'ed product that someone else makes and Green Glue then resells at a markup. As for my expertise in dealing with glues-caulking-componds, I've designed and erected the outside glass and aluminum skins of high rises for the last 30 years and I can tell you the best applications for most of those products and how they actually work in the real world (extreme weather cycles and movement). The first company I worked for put up the John Hancock and Sears towers, which at the time were the tallest in the world.

Since Green Glue is not applied as a solid layer between the two sheets of drywall (a couple tubes per 4' x 8' of drywall) it is not a solid membrane and therfore acts as an isolation damper between the two pieces of drywall. ANY product that is applied between the drywall that keeps the two pieces together and does not dry out over time (which would allow a greater transfer of energy and not be much of a damper anymore) will work the same. If you have some science that counters how an isolation damper works that is different than the above explaination I'd sure like to see it.

Anyways, I said I'd lighten up so regardless, I wish you the best but even though I'm not an Acoustic Engineer, please don't think I don't know about design and construction LOL
Old 27th September 2007
  #50
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Quote:
bassmankr:You then install the sheet of drywall and 24 hours or more later you have to come back and remove the installation screws, at least with the roofing it can be a one time operation saving labor right there. If you want to go the glue route then at least only spend $3 a tube and use Butyl caulking. Anytime I see several threads in the forums praising an expensive item when there are MUCH cheaper equals it raises my radar that the item is being pimped. If it works for you then great but lets not pretend that GG is anything but a rebranded super marked-up product.
I understand that you have much experience with construction,
I do however think that you have been hasty in your posts about green glue

The instalation screws are supposed to stay in the drywall putting pressure on the layer of green glue
Old 27th September 2007
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassmankr View Post
As for my expertise in dealing with glues-caulking-componds, I've designed and erected the outside glass and aluminum skins of high rises for the last 30 years and I can tell you the best applications for most of those products and how they actually work in the real world (extreme weather cycles and movement). The first company I worked for put up the John Hancock and Sears towers, which at the time were the tallest in the world.
Um...do you really want to be touting the outside glass of the John Hancock tower as one of your shining achievements? As I recall, the first several weeks (months?) after that building opened were plagued by the windows flying off with alarming regularity!
Old 27th September 2007
  #52
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Quote:
Seems like a hip idea, but who knows about the long term... 5-10 years down the line? Will it get harder & transmit MORE energry? That surely won't help in a studio... anybody have a DL on the long-term effects of green glue?
Table 1 - Types and properties of caulking compounds suitable for air sealing work.

appearantly acrylic latex has a lifespan of 10-20 years
I´ve read that green glue is latex based, but I`m not shure weather it
is some sort of acrylic latex

butyl who is suggested as an alternativ has a shorter lifespan3-10 years,
it`s dirt cheap though at 35$ a case (12 pieces)
Discount White Lightning WL00114 Butyl Rubber Caulk, Premium Sealant - The Man Store


It seams bassmankr was on the right track with butyl as an alternative

this is from a post by Brian Ravnaas @ green glue at avs forum
Quote:
butyl rubber, or butyl rubber blends such as butyl rubber + butene polymers as a plasticizer - are the best damping of ancient materials. butyl rubber has ~20% of critical damping.

but GG can impart ~30% of damping to two layers of drywall in a sandwich configuration, and per the calculations in ASTM E756 that correlates to ~300% of critical damping for the behavior of the material itself. I don't know how accurate that is, i don';t think the equations were meant to be relevant when damping gets that high.
It`s important to be aware that butyl might change the flamability of the wall, (I haven`t researched into this)
Green Glue - Page 20 - AVS Forum
Old 27th September 2007
  #53
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reading the whole post it seems that mr Ravnaas goes against the idea of using butyl

(remeber though that he represents green glue company)
Green Glue - Page 20 - AVS Forum
Old 3rd May 2009
  #54
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torch-down

I'm pretty sure what he's refering to is called torch-down at roofing supply shops. Its much thicker and heavier than felt.
Old 7th May 2009
  #55
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green stuff

The roofing material they are referring to is called torch-down at supply houses. Much thicker and heavier than felt. I've read the green glue websight and what concerns me most is the fact that three tubes of water based material sealed inside of a wall. They say it requires 7 - 10 days minimum to dry. I'm not really sure how its supposed to dry through the sheetrock though.
I've been using soundboard inbetween layers of sheetrock for 20 years. I'm a little sick of both those products. Especially soundboard which contains an unmistakable amount of formaldihyde.
I have used 4 foot wide sheet rubber sold by an audio company on walls. We used contact cement with staples at the top but this was not easy.
I always try to consider brick or block instead of framed walls.
Old 6th January 2011
  #56
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I know this thread is long past dead, but even if you wanted to take a chance and use the butyl stuff, those cases are filled with little 10 oz tubes, while the green glue is in 29 oz tubes. So for the equivalent amount of the butyl you'd be paying about $110.
Old 12th January 2011
  #57
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And butyl isn't visco-elastic. Better to spend the money on.. anything else
Old 14th January 2011
  #58
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In my studio build we depleted the supply in Southern California, twice. Hundreds of cases went into the rooms. 2 tubes, at least, per sheet.

The stuff works great. Our room is well below NC10, despite being in a very hostile environment (industrial, with 2 busy rail lines 200 yards away).

We used 3 layers of 5/8s gyp, GG between each layer on the isolation walls. On the structural walls we used 2 or 3 layers with GG. Also some lead sheeting.





1 Tube Green Glue:



2 Tubes:
Old 14th January 2011
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Curtis View Post
The stuff works great. Our room is well below NC10, despite being in a very hostile environment (industrial, with 2 busy rail lines 200 yards away).
Wow! We are impressed.

Andre
Old 15th January 2011
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
Wow! We are impressed.

Andre
Well, it is not just the Green Glue!
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