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Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.
Old 18th September 2020
  #91
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akebrake's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
...These readings are different from earlier in the week because I have now introduced my sub to cut off at about 130hz(guessing based on the front dial of my sub) and rolled off the Genelec 8020 at 85hz.
Couple of questions:

What brand/model of sub?
Where are mic & woofers positioned during the later measurements?

Measure from front wall / side wall.

Best
Old 18th September 2020
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Couple of questions:

What brand/model of sub?
Where are mic & woofers positioned during the later measurements?

Measure from front wall / side wall.

Best
Hi it’s a cheap Yamaha sub here’s the 160 info
https://dk.yamaha.com/files/download...90_GBRT_en.PDF

The close to front wall measurements are as follows.

Speakers are 125cm from side walls with me forming the 125cm listening position triangle.

Mic height is placed at the same height as the tweeters which hasn’t changed on all measurements of about 115cm from the floor. (Top of speakers are 120cm)

Speakers were 15cm from the wall. I can get less BUT I’d have to purchase new speaker stands as my ones are quite big on the base so it would cause an early reflection on the stand itself if I push them right back.

Listening position to mic 140cm from front wall.

Anything else? Thankyou 👍🏼
Old 18th September 2020
  #93
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where's the sub positioned? a pic might help...
(put it in a corner to start with)

i don't agree on using built-in analog filters on tops (or subs): run the tops flat and full-range - if you still need filters after treatment, use dsp to cut (and do not boost)!

if you'd space your tops a bit further apart (to 140cm), the dip around 60hz might even out, without adjusting filters. and in terms of lf response, it's all about optimum coupling/spacing/distance to surface/woofers...

(read up a few things a subwoofer array behaviour)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
where's the sub positioned? a pic might help...
(put it in a corner to start with)

i don't agree on using built-in analog filters on tops (or subs): run the tops flat and full-range - if you still need filters after treatment, use dsp to cut (and do not boost)!

if you'd space your tops a bit further apart (to 140cm), the dip around 60hz might even out, without adjusting filters. and in terms of lf response, it's all about optimum coupling/spacing/distance to surface/woofers...

(read up a few things a subwoofer array behaviour)
Hi, sorry for the delay I was away on holiday for a week.

The speakers are placed as wide in the room as I can place them due to a door being behind one of the speakers. I think there’s photos on the original post.

The sub is slightly off centre between the two speakers up against the wall facing side ways. I can get a snap tomorrow night if required!

I need to work out how to set the volume because the latest readings bottom end overall seems louder!

And to clarify you reckon I don’t put the 85hz roll off whilst using the sub then? The Genelec handbook says to do this when using their own sub but I’m using my own Yamaha obvs.

Thankyou
Old 3 weeks ago
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Hi,

It's bed time for me now but I observed you messed up the calibration on a couple of measurements. Some have no mic calibration.
Some have a faulty Sound Card Calibration.

Clicking "Change Cal" (below a measurement description) will open a new window with option to Browse or Clear a calibration.

Best
Just realised I don't think I attached the files with the correct calibrations for the MICS. Here they are now mate. Sorry

With the sub on I notice the bottom end is higher in DBs so I need to work out how to set the overall volume of it maybe?
Attached Files
File Type: mdat front wall with sub.mdat (10.49 MB, 4 views)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
where's the sub positioned? a pic might help...
(put it in a corner to start with)

i don't agree on using built-in analog filters on tops (or subs): run the tops flat and full-range - if you still need filters after treatment, use dsp to cut (and do not boost)!

if you'd space your tops a bit further apart (to 140cm), the dip around 60hz might even out, without adjusting filters. and in terms of lf response, it's all about optimum coupling/spacing/distance to surface/woofers...

(read up a few things a subwoofer array behaviour)
You can 'just' see the sub under the desk on the front wall off centre facing sideway.
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-img_1101.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-img_1104.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-img_1105.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-img_1106.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #97
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akebrake's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Just realised I don't think I attached the files with the correct calibrations for the MICS. Here they are now mate. Sorry
Your mic calibration only affects the high frequencies ≈ 4.5 dB and IMHO the lows are way more important . Below L spkr+sub (overlay) with & wo mic cal.

Quote:
With the sub on I notice the bottom end is higher in DBs so I need to work out how to set the overall volume of it maybe?
How are the 8020 speakers connected? After the sub or directly from your mixer/ monitor controller?

Measurements with & wo sub are needed in order to see what happens.

Pls label your measurements and only change ONE thing at a time.

Best
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-mic-cal-diff.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #98
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[QUOTE=akebrake;15003634]Your mic calibration only affects the high frequencies ≈ 4.5 dB and IMHO the lows are way more important . Below L spkr+sub (overlay) with & wo mic cal.

I am not sure what you are asking of me sorry? The mic calibration file was provided to me custom for the mic by Sonarworks based on the serial number. The mics calibration curve is flat until the high boost as you're stating. I cant do any more with that I dont think? I attached the file Sonarwork gave me custom for this mic. Is this incorrect?

How are the 8020 speakers connected? After the sub or directly from your mixer/ monitor controller?

I have the two speakers direction from UR44 main L+R and out of the headphone output I wire the sub so I can control the volume of it independently. I need some advice on setting it up like what Jason suggested for the main speakers comfortable listening volume.

Measurements with & wo sub are needed in order to see what happens.

I will re-record them again. I put the sub in because the earlier readings Jason was suggesting the sub in but I've no idea how to set the right volume so I dont end up booming!

Pls label your measurements and only change ONE thing at a time.

OK. I will position it again and record. Left no sub. Right no sub. Left with sub NO bass rolloff at 85hz. Right with sub NO bass rolloff at 85hz. Then left with sub with bass rolloff and finally right with sub and bass rolloff. This ok?

Thanks!
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-28-19.12.27.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: txt 35T039_cal_0degree.txt (3.8 KB, 2 views)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Your mic calibration only affects the high frequencies ≈ 4.5 dB and IMHO the lows are way more important . Below L spkr+sub (overlay) with & wo mic cal.



How are the 8020 speakers connected? After the sub or directly from your mixer/ monitor controller?

Measurements with & wo sub are needed in order to see what happens.

Pls label your measurements and only change ONE thing at a time.

Best
POsted a reply above but I dont know how to use forums so my quoting-ability is bad, sorry!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #100
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akebrake's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
... The mics calibration curve is flat until the high boost as you're stating. I cant do any more with that I dont think?
You don't have to worry about that. The Mic Cal is inverted and added to measured REW frequency response.

Quote:
I have the two speakers direction from UR44 main L+R and out of the headphone output I wire the sub so I can control the volume of it independently.
If you change your listening volume during work will the Sub volume follow main L+R ? (headphone output tracks mains?) or do you have to adjust Sub volume again?

Quote:
I will position it again and record. Left no sub. Right no sub. Left with sub NO bass rolloff at 85hz. Right with sub NO bass rolloff at 85hz. Then left with sub with bass rolloff and finally right with sub and bass rolloff. This ok?
Yes, it will be fine!

Best
Old 3 weeks ago
  #101
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akebrake's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
POsted a reply above but I dont know how to use forums so my quoting-ability is bad, sorry!
If you don’t want to quote a whole post in a reply just delete parts of it.
But if quotation marks are deleted, you have to add new ones.
(Mark the text, and then click the quotation ikon. )

If you happen to create double quotations delete one of them if y like

Best
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-quoting.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
You can 'just' see the sub under the desk on the front wall off centre facing sideway.
can't really see it and i agree that you really need to get the tops sorted out...

..but think of the desk as of a boundary which affects low end behaviour - terribly in your case: i'm convinced that if you put the sub in the one of the front corners, you can measure hugely improved lf behaviour, resulting in a much smoother frequency plot (and a bit better decay times)!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
You don't have to worry about that. The Mic Cal is inverted and added to measured REW frequency response.



If you change your listening volume during work will the Sub volume follow main L+R ? (headphone output tracks mains?) or do you have to adjust Sub volume again?



Yes, it will be fine!

Best
Hi thanks!

The sub is independently Controlled by the headphone output as it has its own pot for volume.
This is why I need some help to set the volume so we don’t get wildly bassy readings! In the last set the sub was cut off to about 150hz and the readings were like 10db too loud-ish!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
can't really see it and i agree that you really need to get the tops sorted out...

..but think of the desk as of a boundary which affects low end behaviour - terribly in your case: i'm convinced that if you put the sub in the one of the front corners, you can measure hugely improved lf behaviour, resulting in a much smoother frequency plot (and a bit better decay times)!
Hi I will put the sub in the corner of the room. I need to know that if I turn the sub up too loud I’ll end up with a massive boost like the last readings?

The desks early reflections weren’t affecting the bottom end in earlier readings and the last ones I did I think the sub was turned up too loud!

If you look back at earlier files where I did readings with no sub the bottom end was fading away and Jason asked me to test with the sub. I add the sub with the mic in the same position and speakers in the same position and the bottom end is over pronounced so I am certain I have it set too loud but I need a way to match the volume of my moniors which where around 80db ish.

Any suggestions please?

Gonna try it with sub in corner but need some advice on setting the volume as I control it independently via the headphone output!

Thanks again!!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
can't really see it and i agree that you really need to get the tops sorted out...

..but think of the desk as of a boundary which affects low end behaviour - terribly in your case: i'm convinced that if you put the sub in the one of the front corners, you can measure hugely improved lf behaviour, resulting in a much smoother frequency plot (and a bit better decay times)!
Another quick question.
My monitors are now within 10cm of the front wall with a gap of 30cm between them and the desk. How do I work on the direction the sound travels vertically from speaker towards the floor? I’m wondering if the sound travels from the speaker directly to the floor and if there’s some way to move the desk so that that happens and then I can treat the floor rather than it bounding directly off of the desk? Is this a worthwhile trial?
I can’t seem to find an image showing early reflection points on the vertical plane for speakers only the horizontal one!
Cheers Ben
Old 3 weeks ago
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Another quick question.
My monitors are now within 10cm of the front wall with a gap of 30cm between them and the desk. How do I work on the direction the sound travels vertically from speaker towards the floor? I’m wondering if the sound travels from the speaker directly to the floor and if there’s some way to move the desk so that that happens and then I can treat the floor rather than it bounding directly off of the desk? Is this a worthwhile trial?
I can’t seem to find an image showing early reflection points on the vertical plane for speakers only the horizontal one!
Cheers Ben
regarding hf dispersion, i think it's helpful to visualize things...

maybe hold a funnel and a lamp in front of the tweeter: the most linear behaviour you get on axis. towards the edge of the funnel, you're loosing hf/the sound gets duller but you still get reflection from anything say within 45 to 60 degrees off axis, in every direction!

simply put: if you hold a lamp behind your funnel, everything within the beam that is not hitting your ears (at the listening position) in a straight line will cause reflections! mostly it's enough to dampen the first reflection points and maybe to diffuse the others...

___

...but there's also mf/lf: lower frequenies don't form as much of a beam and literally wrap around the speakers; therefore your first reflection in the mf/lf is caused by the front wall and the frequency which gets affected most depends on the distance from the woofer to the front wall (and back where it combines with the direct sound and is causing a phase devation: not good!)
if you cannot use an in-wall design (most can't and it isn't easy to get it done right), put your speakers as close to the front wall as you possibly can, with the rear of the speaker (almost) touching the front wall!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Hi I will put the sub in the corner of the room. I need to know that if I turn the sub up too loud I’ll end up with a massive boost like the last readings?

The desks early reflections weren’t affecting the bottom end in earlier readings and the last ones I did I think the sub was turned up too loud!

If you look back at earlier files where I did readings with no sub the bottom end was fading away and Jason asked me to test with the sub. I add the sub with the mic in the same position and speakers in the same position and the bottom end is over pronounced so I am certain I have it set too loud but I need a way to match the volume of my moniors which where around 80db ish.

Any suggestions please?

Gonna try it with sub in corner but need some advice on setting the volume as I control it independently via the headphone output!

Thanks again!!
forget about everything i said above regard hf/mf: lf works entirely different and in studios needs to do just three things which are:
- extending the frequency range of the tops/mains/mf/hf speakers into the lowest octaves
- adding overall system output/spl
- smoothing of room modes

trouble is that for the latter, it depends on positioning and you need far more than one sub to do so efficiently...

again, most people for financial and practical reasons can't do so - the only remedy therefore is to make maximum use of the single sub and this in mist situations means that tge best starting point for positioning the sub is in the front corner, so: on the floor, very clise to bith the front wall and one side wall but away from any larger reflective boundary/surface - this includes side racks, tables etc.

if your driving the sub from a different output, use a measurement mic to verify that you don't settle for too much or not enough lf - an app on your smart phone can also do and maybe also listen to your favourite tracks which you know very well: i'm sure you'll notice when you went crazy...

do not adjust volume all time: not only 'cause it might be tricky to re-establish the balance between tops/subs but also because our ears don't work in linear fashion...



p.s. here' a link to an article which is quite interesting in terms of subs:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...t-control-room

you neither need to understand nor to agree with everthing: bottom line is that there are a couple of reasons to get the direct sound from the tops right but then just 'load' the room with sub(s) - for this, in a small room without heavy/massive/efficient rear wall absoption and if you have but a single sub, a corner is almost always the best place.

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 3 weeks ago at 01:09 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 3 weeks ago
  #107
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Another quick question.
My monitors are now within 10cm of the front wall with a gap of 30cm between them and the desk. How do I work on the direction the sound travels vertically from speaker towards the floor? I’m wondering if the sound travels from the speaker directly to the floor and if there’s some way to move the desk so that that happens and then I can treat the floor rather than it bounding directly off of the desk? Is this a worthwhile trial?
I can’t seem to find an image showing early reflection points on the vertical plane for speakers only the horizontal one!
Cheers Ben
You can look up the polar plot of your speakers and ray trace where first reflections are. The angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection. This is from the schroeder frequency and up, obviously.

Or, we can look at your ETC and see if you have reflections that need dealth with, like we did previously. Floor bounce is often blocked in small room due to the desks.

For your sub, turn off your tops, and play pink noise from your sub. Adjust sub volume to match your SPL readings from the other speakers at listening position.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Floor bounce is often blocked in small room due to the desks.
Actually this isn't true.

The first floor bounce depending on location can be between 94hz and as high 135hz. These are huge wavefronts and you would need a desk that's 9-12ft wide and deep. Also if you had a desk this large it would redirect the bounce, but the bounce has to go somewhere. If you don't have the right treatment eventually it will show up as SBIR anyway in your measurement as some null in the frequency response.

Also the other reflection people dont discuss enough is the first ceiling bounce(if there is a floor bounce, then there has to be a ceiling bounce). Because of the seating height location, the bounce will be longer then the floor, which means it will be lower in the bass region and if not dealt with more destructive. This is where the deep wide nulls around 70-75hz show up in frequency response in home studios.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
Actually this isn't true.

The first floor bounce depending on location can be between 94hz and as high 135hz. These are huge wavefronts and you would need a desk that's 9-12ft wide and deep. Also if you had a desk this large it would redirect the bounce, but the bounce has to go somewhere. If you don't have the right treatment eventually it will show up as SBIR anyway in your measurement as some null in the frequency response.

Also the other reflection people dont discuss enough is the first ceiling bounce(if there is a floor bounce, then there has to be a ceiling bounce). Because of the seating height location, the bounce will be longer then the floor, which means it will be lower in the bass region and if not dealt with more destructive. This is where the deep wide nulls around 70-75hz show up in frequency response in home studios.
Thank you
Old 3 weeks ago
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
regarding hf dispersion, i think it's helpful to visualize things...

maybe hold a funnel and a lamp in front of the tweeter: the most linear behaviour you get on axis. towards the edge of the funnel, you're loosing hf/the sound gets duller but you still get reflection from anything say within 45 to 60 degrees off axis, in every direction!

simply put: if you hold a lamp behind your funnel, everything within the beam that is not hitting your ears (at the listening position) in a straight line will cause reflections! mostly it's enough to dampen the first reflection points and maybe to diffuse the others...

___

...but there's also mf/lf: lower frequenies don't form as much of a beam and literally wrap around the speakers; therefore your first reflection in the mf/lf is caused by the front wall and the frequency which gets affected most depends on the distance from the woofer to the front wall (and back where it combines with the direct sound and is causing a phase devation: not good!)
if you cannot use an in-wall design (most can't and it isn't easy to get it done right), put your speakers as close to the front wall as you possibly can, with the rear of the speaker (almost) touching the front wall!



forget about everything i said above regard hf/mf: lf works entirely different and in studios needs to do just three things which are:
- extending the frequency range of the tops/mains/mf/hf speakers into the lowest octaves
- adding overall system output/spl
- smoothing of room modes

trouble is that for the latter, it depends on positioning and you need far more than one sub to do so efficiently...

again, most people for financial and practical reasons can't do so - the only remedy therefore is to make maximum use of the single sub and this in mist situations means that tge best starting point for positioning the sub is in the front corner, so: on the floor, very clise to bith the front wall and one side wall but away from any larger reflective boundary/surface - this includes side racks, tables etc.

if your driving the sub from a different output, use a measurement mic to verify that you don't settle for too much or not enough lf - an app on your smart phone can also do and maybe also listen to your favourite tracks which you know very well: i'm sure you'll notice when you went crazy...

do not adjust volume all time: not only 'cause it might be tricky to re-establish the balance between tops/subs but also because our ears don't work in linear fashion...



p.s. here' a link to an article which is quite interesting in terms of subs:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...t-control-room

you neither need to understand nor to agree with everthing: bottom line is that there are a couple of reasons to get the direct sound from the tops right but then just 'load' the room with sub(s) - for this, in a small room without heavy/massive/efficient rear wall absoption and if you have but a single sub, a corner is almost always the best place.
Thankyou for this!
Didn’t get down but hoping to try measurements tonight. The article is really interesting. I like the point about not caring about sub placement in corners and it exciting things. So long as the listening position is ok that’s all that matters!

One final question about measurements based on the article.
My Genelec have the 85hz roll off but do you think it would be necessary to roll it off when using a sub? Jason mentioned earlier about the cut off being ok if it overlaps. I’m trying to work out if it’s not worth rolling them off at all. Or is it a case of just getting as many readings and you guys helping me work with the best possible option?

Cheers
Ben
Old 3 weeks ago
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
(...) One final question about measurements based on the article.
My Genelec have the 85hz roll off but do you think it would be necessary to roll it off when using a sub? Jason mentioned earlier about the cut off being ok if it overlaps. I’m trying to work out if it’s not worth rolling them off at all. Or is it a case of just getting as many readings and you guys helping me work with the best possible option?
other folks are more knowledgeable in terms of interpreting rew results so i cannot comment (much): i'm using another platform which has both advantages and disadvantages so stick to their advice in terms of interpretation...

regarding the use of filters on tops/subs/dsp, i'm both pretty agnostic (do whatever gets you the best results) but also convinced (due to my experience as a system designer of large pa's but mostly as an enginner) that running the tops fullrange is almost always to be preferred unless sound in the lmf/lf range becomes muddy and needs to get cleaned up.

one advantage is certainly that you can keep mixing when the sub is turned off (say in order not to annoy your neighbours too much when working late at night) but also for more overall sytem output.
it also helps to eliminate running smallish speakers into clipping and therefore you should experience less listening fatigue (some audiologists don't agree on the topic of distortion being a major driver of hearing issues, i however very much think so and i guess i'm not the only one).
besides: you may apply clipping/saturation elsewhere but the playback chain imo is there to reveal things, not to add things!

___

remains the question of overlap between tops running fullrange and the sub: i could link to articles aiming at live sound but since sub(s) behave much different in a small room than when getting flow or stacked in large arrays, i suggest you start with the sub crossed over at around the modal frequency (slightly higher) which you aim to smoothen.

running lower will lessen this effect but enhance signal to noise ratio and eliminate potential localisation of the sub (which is good!) - pls note that in terms of alignment (if you use sonarworks, outside dsp or filters built into speakers)), all filters on both tops and sub need to get sorted out prior to time alignment.

EDIT: i would not use filters built into the speakers but all dsp - reason is that say swapping an x-over from 24lr to 18bw has a massive effect on phase behaviour (besides the fact that you can't do this on most speakers - unless they have clever dsp built-in).

or in a nutshell: get the eq right, only then do the delay(s) - don't be surprised if better phase coherence does affect the overall level: in fact, you can even use a simple spl meter to make educated guesses about the phase being set! you have to use pink noise for this though rather than sweeps (which is recommended by a very prominent figure in the live sound world anyway, for reasons far beyond this thread though)!

(sorry for another lengthy post...)

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 3 weeks ago at 03:24 PM.. Reason: edited, see above
Old 3 weeks ago
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
You don't have to worry about that. The Mic Cal is inverted and added to measured REW frequency response.



If you change your listening volume during work will the Sub volume follow main L+R ? (headphone output tracks mains?) or do you have to adjust Sub volume again?



Yes, it will be fine!

Best
Hi,

I just recorded new readings with the sub placed on the front wall to the left of the left speaker. I found the sweet spot via placing it in the listening position then moving around and this seems OK-ish. My monitors were combining DBs at 82db so I set the sub to the same volume with pink noise in the listening position.

I recorded 2 takes of each scenario. Speakers were ran flat with no bass or treble tilts. I tilted my desk and uploaded some photos to show you the side view + black sub on the floor in the room. Space from monitors to desk is 30cm. Not sure how that affects the early reflection to the floor?

Files to large so I have uploaded it to here

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ltrezrbimd...nket.mdat?dl=0

It would be great to get some feedback please. Thanks everyone so far!

Cheers
Ben
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-img_1596.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-img_1597.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-img_1598.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-img_1599.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #113
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akebrake's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
...It would be great to get some feedback please...
Aaah...those "calibrations"

Seems to be a major step stone for many REW users. There's no magic with calibration. If a Soundcard is flat within 0.5dB you dont need it.
Unless you are a "very picky Golden Ear"

If a wrong file is added, it ruins the shown Frequency Response but...
you can switch it off quite simple.

1. Click Change Calibration and then
2. Clear calibration for every measurement.

The Distortion window is not affected by the SC calibration. But if "All SPL" looks very different against "Distortion"(fundamental) one can suspect an error.

Best
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-wrong-sc-cal.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-ok-fr-.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Aaah...those "calibrations"

Seems to be a major step stone for many REW users. There's no magic with calibration. If a Soundcard is flat within 0.5dB you dont need it.
Unless you are a "very picky Golden Ear"

If a wrong file is added, it ruins the shown Frequency Response but...
you can switch it off quite simple.

1. Click Change Calibration and then
2. Clear calibration for every measurement.

The Distortion window is not affected by the SC calibration. But if "All SPL" looks very different against "Distortion"(fundamental) one can suspect an error.

Best
Hi I didn't put the SC calibration there on purpose, it must have set it up as a default somehow! I'll try delete it from my settings. New version with only mic calibrations here now. Really sorry about this!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/la0mu4gss6...0Cal.mdat?dl=0

Thankyou
Old 3 weeks ago
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Aaah...those "calibrations"

Seems to be a major step stone for many REW users. There's no magic with calibration. If a Soundcard is flat within 0.5dB you dont need it.
Unless you are a "very picky Golden Ear"

If a wrong file is added, it ruins the shown Frequency Response but...
you can switch it off quite simple.

1. Click Change Calibration and then
2. Clear calibration for every measurement.

The Distortion window is not affected by the SC calibration. But if "All SPL" looks very different against "Distortion"(fundamental) one can suspect an error.

Best
Also, taking the advice on how to set the level of the sub. I have it cut off at about 150hz(guessing cause of the dial on the front). I played a mastered track which was about 82db and then used pink noise to set the sub to 82db to match as Jason suggested. It meant that when I played the sub with the monitors it seemed super loud! So I may need some advice here! The readings also show the bottom end louder in the left speakers readings as it's placed to the left now.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #116
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akebrake's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Hi I didn't put the SC calibration there on purpose, it must have set it up as a default somehow!
Quite possible. I should have been more clear.
Your measurements are usable. Just switch the SC Cal off. Raw data is still there.
SC Calibration is added to the Frequency Response after the sweep is captured.

It was merely a reminder for the interested who want to look at the strange Frequency plots.

Best
Old 3 weeks ago
  #117
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Also, taking the advice on how to set the level of the sub. I have it cut off at about 150hz(guessing cause of the dial on the front). I played a mastered track which was about 82db and then used pink noise to set the sub to 82db to match as Jason suggested. It meant that when I played the sub with the monitors it seemed super loud! So I may need some advice here! The readings also show the bottom end louder in the left speakers readings as it's placed to the left now.
Try playing a song you know well and balance the sub that way. It'll probably be flat around 72db, but a bump in the low end is usually prefered. Maybe set it to 78db??? Takes some checking since the mains are fullrange
Old 3 weeks ago
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Quite possible. I should have been more clear.
Your measurements are usable. Just switch the SC Cal off. Raw data is still there.
SC Calibration is added to the Frequency Response after the sweep is captured.

It was merely a reminder for the interested who want to look at the strange Frequency plots.

Best
Noted my friend!
Files above should be OK now.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Try playing a song you know well and balance the sub that way. It'll probably be flat around 72db, but a bump in the low end is usually prefered. Maybe set it to 78db??? Takes some checking since the mains are fullrange
Yeah that’s what I did in the end, quite difficult cause if the rooms not right your giving yourself a hard task but I think those measurements above are when I set it based on my ears/instinct.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
You can look up the polar plot of your speakers and ray trace where first reflections are. The angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection. This is from the schroeder frequency and up, obviously.

Or, we can look at your ETC and see if you have reflections that need dealth with, like we did previously. Floor bounce is often blocked in small room due to the desks.

For your sub, turn off your tops, and play pink noise from your sub. Adjust sub volume to match your SPL readings from the other speakers at listening position.
Hey mate, couldn't quite find a polar plot but tried some reading up. I'm wondering if the 30cm gap from speaker to back of desk is helping to guide some reflections to the floor maybe?

For a test I just used the mirror trick to see early reflections on the desk and did some measurements with/without foam/auralex and you can see it is quite helpful from 1k upwards. So I reckon I can try deign my desk top around this theory. What you reckon to these test measurements?

Thanks!
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-img_1610.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-img_1611.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-img_1612.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: mdat R with and without foam.mdat (8.99 MB, 2 views)
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