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Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Ha ha yeah Sonarworks is off! I'm silly but not that bad!

I just moved my listening position to 38% (a change of 20cm) which means I have had to move the Genelecs forward 20cm (so now 40cm away from the front wall). I again laid down the blanket and did new readings with flat speaker response and no sub.

The screen monitor is potentially in an early reflection I guess. The window has been built a few inches above the monitors and the door I can treat but I was reading that the front wall rarely gets treated? I only did the wall for aesthetics instead of plasterboard/drywall!
+ corner bass traps.

You reckon I need to cover those surfaces then?

Thanks again!
i'm the wrong person to talk to:

- i'm mostly mixing in a lede room (which uses HEAVY treatment on the front wall/around the speakers)
- i'm no acoustician but an somewhat experienced tech
- i've been using another fft so i'm no good at interpreting mdats/rew measurements, sorry

but forget about the '38% rule' (and about most any other rule: design/treatment/physics rule, not magical thinking...
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Hi,
looks like you have loaded a measurement file as "Soundcard Calibration"

Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-left-sondcard-.jpg

A decent soundcard would look like pic 2
Which means... its actually not needed at all!
(Unless you are constructing loudspeakers etc.)


(The main advantage with Loopback measurements/ Soundcard calibration is to reveal measuring misstakes.

Also: 8020 type is one of the smaller Genelecs so measuring loud (?) will give you a lot of distortion and possibly another kind of corrupt measurement...

Try again, no SC Cal and not too loud

Best


BTW. Agree with deedee. Make sure you don't have Sonarworks or other EQ engaged when you investigate your room.
Hi, I didn't realise I had set it up in the wrong way. I think I deleted the calibration but on each reading I have added to calibration file for the XREF20 Mic which will correct the reading yeah?

I have done readings for each speaker + stereo with and without the TV screen in the room.

I dialed down the input level to a few DB lower, is this too much?
Attached Files
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Hi, I didn't realise I had set it up in the wrong way. I think I deleted the calibration but on each reading I have added to calibration file for the XREF20 Mic which will correct the reading yeah?

I have done readings for each speaker + stereo with and without the TV screen in the room.

I dialed down the input level to a few DB lower, is this too much?
Struggling to google how I could interpret the latest readings.

I seem to have the highs kinda smooth with a blanket across my desk.
Itโ€™s from 1300 down to 225hz I seem to have loads of dips and canโ€™t work out how to remedy this and what is causing it.
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Hey mate.

So this morning I have taken new measurements as you suggested. I also removed everything from my desk and laid down some heavy old curtains. I used the calibration file from my XREF20 Mic to balance the readings out.

I tested as you said and also with the bass roll off engaged with sub as you'll see in the file.

Any help here would be amazing please! Corona beers are ready!

The file is too big so I uploaded it to Mediafire.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/aszr19vdqm...ents.mdat?dl=0
Run your measurements without covering your synths/desk first. We need to see what is going to cause the problems. Unless you intend to keep those blankets there permanently...
Old 13th September 2020
  #35
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Have you calibrated your monitors first snd checked gain staging too?
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
... I dialed down the input level to a few DB lower, is this too much?
Well, measurements looks better (without "SC calibration") but distortion is still too high.

The problem is: Small speakers will distort if you drive them too hard. Reducing input level will not change that. How loud are you sweeping?
SPL meter?

If you don't have an SPL meter just sweep with a comfortable level.

Best

PS Is it a quiet place? Traffic, rain, wind, HVAC, fridge, fans...
What Noise floor can we expect?
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Well, measurements looks better (without "SC calibration") but distortion is still too high.

The problem is: Small speakers will distort if you drive them too hard. Reducing input level will not change that. How loud are you sweeping?
SPL meter?

If you don't have an SPL meter just sweep with a comfortable level.

Best

PS Is it a quiet place? Traffic, rain, wind, HVAC, fridge, fans...
What Noise floor can we expect?
Hi, so I am new to REW but to use it it asked me to check the level so it puts out white noise which I then adjusted the mic input level to I think it was -30db ish. It was super quiet when I was there.

I tried lowering the input level but it failed so I dont know what I can do?

I matched the level to what it was saying on the calibration thing.

It didn't struggle to get a quiet noise floor at all.

I'm sure it was set at -16dbfs within REW. It wasn't loud at all really.
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Have you calibrated your monitors first snd checked gain staging too?
How would I do that?

Are these readings wrong then?

I dont understand how to set it up properly if so.

I used the REW white noise signal to adjust my input level until it passed at -32dbfs ish.

The sweep was set at -16dbfs so I dont know what I should do?

Sorry about this.
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Have you calibrated your monitors first snd checked gain staging too?
I'm not at the studio but in the attached image is where I used it to set the level by clicking check and then it output noise to which I adjust the mic input level to what it said was adequate.
It wouldn't allow me to test with the mic level less than like -30dbfs so on the last readings I set it to the lowest possible.

The speakers within the room I didn't change the volume after it calibrated it based on the outputting noise.

Not sure I should do any more than this?

Are these settings wrong?
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-13-17.31.38.jpg  
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
How would I do that?

Are these readings wrong then?

I dont understand how to set it up properly if so.

I used the REW white noise signal to adjust my input level until it passed at -32dbfs ish.

The sweep was set at -16dbfs so I dont know what I should do?

Sorry about this.
Do you own a c weighted spl meter you can check actual levels with?
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Do you own a c weighted spl meter you can check actual levels with?
No I dont. What are we thinking here? That the outputting volume is too loud?

The sweep from REW doesn't sound too loud at all when it runs through it, I'm getting really confused about why it is distorting?

The mic I am using is the XREF20 and I used the custom calibration file for it from Sonarworks.
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
No I dont. What are we thinking here? That the outputting volume is too loud?

The sweep from REW doesn't sound too loud at all when it runs through it, I'm getting really confused about why it is distorting?

The mic I am using is the XREF20 and I used the custom calibration file for it from Sonarworks.
What level should the sweep be set at? It was set at -16 within REW.
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Do you own a c weighted spl meter you can check actual levels with?
I could setup an instance of Logic and monitor the volume of the sweep from REW in real time as a workaround?

Or as the calibration for gain is passing maybe once I have done this I could reduce my soundcards main output volume level considerably and hope it picks up the readings?
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
No I dont. What are we thinking here? That the outputting volume is too loud?

The sweep from REW doesn't sound too loud at all when it runs through it, I'm getting really confused about why it is distorting?

The mic I am using is the XREF20 and I used the custom calibration file for it from Sonarworks.
You need to make sure everthing on the equipment side is calibrated before you do your sweeps.

First...
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/gain-staging/

Download a SPL meter app to your phone. This isnt ideal, but its what you have unless you want to buy a real one.

Set the spl meter to slow c weighted, hold the phone at ear height at mix position, pointing the phones mic twards the speakers

Play a commercialy mastered mix you know well out of your speakers at decently loud but comfortable volume you would mix at for hours on end.

At a sustained loud point in the song check the spl meter to see how many db its playing at. That number will be what you calibrate to.

Now open REW and play pink noise and calibrate the level coming from REW to match the SPL reading you got on your phone.

Next calibrate monitors using the SPL meter level you determined as stated in post 18 of the following thread. Set each individual speaker to 3db less than your mix level (summed will match). So if the SPL meter said 85db, set the monitors to 82db


Jason Foi Studio Design - Tuning
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
You need to make sure everthing on the equipment side is calibrated before you do your sweeps.

First...
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/gain-staging/

Download a SPL meter app to your phone. This isnt ideal, but its what you have unless you want to buy a real one.

Set the spl meter to slow c weighted, hold the phone at ear height at mix position, pointing the phones mic twards the speakers

Play a commercialy mastered mix you know well out of your speakers at decently loud but comfortable volume you would mix at for hours on end.

At a sustained loud point in the song check the spl meter to see how many db its playing at. That number will be what you calibrate to.

Now open REW and play pink noise and calibrate the level coming from REW to match the SPL reading you got on your phone.

Next calibrate monitors using the SPL meter level you determined as stated in post 18 of the following thread. Set each individual speaker to 3db less than your mix level (summed will match). So if the SPL meter said 85db, set the monitors to 82db


Jason Foi Studio Design - Tuning
Hi thanks again for this help!

"Now open REW and play pink noise and calibrate the level coming from REW to match the SPL reading you got on your phone. "

Do you mean that I open REW click the 'generator' tab and crank up the outputting noise until it's the same volume as my desired comfortable level?

"Next calibrate monitors using the SPL meter level you determined as stated in post 18 of the following thread. Set each individual speaker to 3db less than your mix level (summed will match). So if the SPL meter said 85db, set the monitors to 82db"

Trying to understand this one, it's confusing me.
For example my track level I could work with was 80db so I need to 'set the monitors' to 77db. What do you mean by set the monitors? Could you explain in basic terms what you mean by this step because I can't understand what your asking of me here? Sorry, I dont know how to set individual speakers to a specific volume? Do you mean by outputting pink noise and monitoring it with the SPL until it is at the desired volume?

Really appreciate your help here, sorry again.
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Hi thanks again for this help!

"Now open REW and play pink noise and calibrate the level coming from REW to match the SPL reading you got on your phone. "

Do you mean that I open REW click the 'generator' tab and crank up the outputting noise until it's the same volume as my desired comfortable level?

"Next calibrate monitors using the SPL meter level you determined as stated in post 18 of the following thread. Set each individual speaker to 3db less than your mix level (summed will match). So if the SPL meter said 85db, set the monitors to 82db"

Trying to understand this one, it's confusing me.
For example my track level I could work with was 80db so I need to 'set the monitors' to 77db. What do you mean by set the monitors? Could you explain in basic terms what you mean by this step because I can't understand what your asking of me here? Sorry, I dont know how to set individual speakers to a specific volume? Do you mean by outputting pink noise and monitoring it with the SPL until it is at the desired volume?

Really appreciate your help here, sorry again.
Yep, generate pink noise in REW.

Yep, 77 if you got 80

On the back of the speakers there should be trim pots to adjust each speakers level
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Yep, generate pink noise in REW.

Yep, 77 if you got 80

On the back of the speakers there should be trim pots to adjust each speakers level
Hi, OK great. I will do this tomorrow and report back with the new readings.

I always set my monitors to full volume and adjust via the source so I will do it the other way round to achieve this calibration then.

Cheers mate.
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Run your measurements without covering your synths/desk first. We need to see what is going to cause the problems. Unless you intend to keep those blankets there permanently...
Must have missed this one. I have done readings with just a desk but Iโ€™ll do all different variations once Iโ€™ve setup the calibration.
Old 13th September 2020 | Show parent
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Hi, OK great. I will do this tomorrow and report back with the new readings.

I always set my monitors to full volume and adjust via the source so I will do it the other way round to achieve this calibration then.

Cheers mate.
Yes, you want to set the volume for each speaker seperately. Play only one at a time, set trim with the spl meter 3 feet away. Pointed right at the speaker. Follow northwards directions in that thread i linked.

Ideally, you want to set a baseline in a completely empty room, tune the system and then add gear/furniture, but ETC will show us where reflections are coming from and we can try and do it backasswards since everything is already installed.

This will be a slow pain in the butt guess and check process, and you will likely need to add more treatment and rearrange gear 10000 times, but we can get you as good as your room/budget allows
Old 14th September 2020 | Show parent
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Hi,
looks like you have loaded a measurement file as "Soundcard Calibration"



A decent soundcard would look like pic 2
Which means... its actually not needed at all!
(Unless you are constructing loudspeakers etc.)


(The main advantage with Loopback measurements/ Soundcard calibration is to reveal measuring misstakes.

Also: 8020 type is one of the smaller Genelecs so measuring loud (?) will give you a lot of distortion and possibly another kind of corrupt measurement...

Try again, no SC Cal and not too loud

Best


BTW. Agree with deedee. Make sure you don't have Sonarworks or other EQ engaged when you investigate your room.
Hi do you think you could tell me if these readings are distorting?

I have changed the sweep level fom -16 to -45db and I have turned down my soundcard main output so the sweep is barely audible.

When I calibrated the speakers it said I could have over 90db before it started distorting.
What should the readings on the distortion graph read?

Thanjks
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-14-10.44.03.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-14-10.43.54.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-14-10.47.02.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-14-10.46.58.jpg  
Old 14th September 2020 | Show parent
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Yes, you want to set the volume for each speaker seperately. Play only one at a time, set trim with the spl meter 3 feet away. Pointed right at the speaker. Follow northwards directions in that thread i linked.

Ideally, you want to set a baseline in a completely empty room, tune the system and then add gear/furniture, but ETC will show us where reflections are coming from and we can try and do it backasswards since everything is already installed.

This will be a slow pain in the butt guess and check process, and you will likely need to add more treatment and rearrange gear 10000 times, but we can get you as good as your room/budget allows
There's a industrial unit across the road working today so the noise floor when I'm in the quietest possible setting is showing as this. Is this normal?
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-14-10.48.58.jpg  
Old 14th September 2020 | Show parent
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Hi,
looks like you have loaded a measurement file as "Soundcard Calibration"



A decent soundcard would look like pic 2
Which means... its actually not needed at all!
(Unless you are constructing loudspeakers etc.)


(The main advantage with Loopback measurements/ Soundcard calibration is to reveal measuring misstakes.

Also: 8020 type is one of the smaller Genelecs so measuring loud (?) will give you a lot of distortion and possibly another kind of corrupt measurement...

Try again, no SC Cal and not too loud

Best


BTW. Agree with deedee. Make sure you don't have Sonarworks or other EQ engaged when you investigate your room.
Which bit do you mean to adjust to be 'not too loud'?

Speakers output with a mastered track is about 78db when in stereo. I am confused about which readings are distorted?
It says I can output 105Db with these monitors?
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-14-11.14.11.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-14-11.15.31.jpg  
Old 14th September 2020 | Show parent
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Yes, you want to set the volume for each speaker seperately. Play only one at a time, set trim with the spl meter 3 feet away. Pointed right at the speaker. Follow northwards directions in that thread i linked.

Ideally, you want to set a baseline in a completely empty room, tune the system and then add gear/furniture, but ETC will show us where reflections are coming from and we can try and do it backasswards since everything is already installed.

This will be a slow pain in the butt guess and check process, and you will likely need to add more treatment and rearrange gear 10000 times, but we can get you as good as your room/budget allows
Hi,

So this morning I have.

Measured a track which was comfortable which came out at 81db

I then did the full range of pink noise which was outputting 80.9/81db

I tuned the left speaker to 78db
The same on the right.
Summed together they were 82.1

This calc allowed me 98db max test volume.

I have set the sweep volume in the main settings at -30db

I have measured l+r, L, R with synths on desk in my normal set up.

I also did the same measurements with the blanket across the desk too.

The guy who mentioned distortion I dont know what, if I am doing anything wrong here?

I calibrated everything exactly as you suggested and if it were clipping it would tell me when I tried to record a measurement. I drove the volume right up for a test to see if that happened.

I recorded them at -45 sweep with synths on desk incase this is distorted?
This is the lowest possible level REW will take.
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-14-11.58.13.jpg  
Attached Files
Old 14th September 2020 | Show parent
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Hi,

So this morning I have.

Measured a track which was comfortable which came out at 81db

I then did the full range of pink noise which was outputting 80.9/81db

I tuned the left speaker to 78db
The same on the right.
Summed together they were 82.1

This calc allowed me 98db max test volume.

I have set the sweep volume in the main settings at -30db

I have measured l+r, L, R with synths on desk in my normal set up.

I also did the same measurements with the blanket across the desk too.

The guy who mentioned distortion I dont know what, if I am doing anything wrong here?

I calibrated everything exactly as you suggested and if it were clipping it would tell me when I tried to record a measurement. I drove the volume right up for a test to see if that happened.

I recorded them at -45 sweep with synths on desk incase this is distorted?
This is the lowest possible level REW will take.
Your sweep should be done at the calibrated level, 82db. Adjust the mic input to match as close as possible without distorting
Old 14th September 2020 | Show parent
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Your sweep should be done at the calibrated level, 82db. Adjust the mic input to match as close as possible without distorting
You mean + 82 dB? It starts to clip at -10db?
When I go to level test I have dialled it so itโ€™s at -30dbfs which are the recorded measurements you can see.

Where exactly should I adjust the sweep to 82db?
Old 14th September 2020 | Show parent
  #56
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Your sweep should be done at the calibrated level, 82db. Adjust the mic input to match as close as possible without distorting
Hi let me explain what I am doing so you can tell me how I am wrong.

I adjusted my speakers on the units themselves to half way.

I then upped my soundcard output to a level which I could stand whilst listening to the mastered track. I noted this down as 81db.

I then opened REW and launched the full range of pink noise and upped the dbfs output level until it matched my SPL reading of 81db I think it was around -18.5 dbfs.

I then launched the SPL meter within REW and clicked calibrate and turned off my right speaker I positioned my SPL meter at the listening position and adjust my speaker output volume on the unit until it read -3dbs less than the mastered track. I repeated this for the right speaker. Summed together they were 82.1db

I then clicked on measure and checked the level which was set to run a sweep at -18.5 from 20-20kz. If I upped it to -20(see image the input was too high) so I recorded the sweep which was outputting from REW @ -30.

I am confused about what I need to do EXACTLY at this point to get what you need for adequate measurements, please explain from here what I am doing wrong?

I did say on the first post I am far from professional ha ha
Sorry about this,
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-14-11.27.14.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-14-11.29.32.jpg   Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-screenshot-2020-09-14-11.36.55.jpg  
Old 14th September 2020 | Show parent
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
You mean + 82 dB? It starts to clip at -10db?
When I go to level test I have dialled it so itโ€™s at -30dbfs which are the recorded measurements you can see.

Where exactly should I adjust the sweep to 82db?
Adjust mic sensitivity so that the recorded sweep shows up at ~82db on the graph
Old 14th September 2020 | Show parent
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Adjust mic sensitivity so that the recorded shows up at ~82db on the graph
Could you explain this in really simple terms please?

"~82db" does this mean -82db?

I am struggling to understand what you mean by "Adjust mic sensitivity so that the recorded shows up at ~82db on the graph"

Which graph? How do I know I am changing the mic sensitivity to exactly -82db?

I have literally no idea what to do here! I just need to know where at what stage I am changing the microphone input level and if it's up or down? The noise floor in my room is -35db (see attached image) so how do I get down another -50db?

Is it a case of me dialling down the sensitivity on this page(photo attached) down to -82db although it then says the signal strength is too low?

Sorry about this, this is why I bought Sonarworks because I thought it was simple enough for a basic person like me.
Attached Thumbnails
Correct settings on Genelecs after Sonarworks readings.-.jpg  
Old 14th September 2020 | Show parent
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muskman View Post
Could you explain this in really simple terms please?

"~82db" does this mean -82db?

I am struggling to understand what you mean by "Adjust mic sensitivity so that the recorded shows up at ~82db on the graph"

Which graph? How do I know I am changing the mic sensitivity to exactly -82db?

I have literally no idea what to do here! I just need to know where at what stage I am changing the microphone input level and if it's up or down? The noise floor in my room is -35db (see attached image) so how do I get down another -50db?

Is it a case of me dialling down the sensitivity on this page(photo attached) down to -82db although it then says the signal strength is too low?

Sorry about this, this is why I bought Sonarworks because I thought it was simple enough for a basic person like me.
~ means more or less, like +/- and i left out the word sweep, my bad

You might already be there, i cant read the numbers on your graph from my phone, you just said something about the sweep being quiet earlier which concerned me. The sweep should be at mixing volume and show up at mixing volume on the graph
Old 14th September 2020 | Show parent
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
~ means more or less, like +/- and i left out the word sweep, my bad

You might already be there, i cant read the numbers on your graph from my phone, you just said something about the sweep being quiet earlier which concerned me. The sweep should be at mixing volume and show up at mixing volume on the graph
AH, OK. Sorry for being so thorough, it's quite complex learning all these new things so apologies for all the questions.

To summarise, the sweep inside the room wasn't distorting my speakers(they start clipping at like 95db but I never listen that loud) and I tried to measure it's peak which seemed to be around 84db with the iphone SPL I bought.

Well hopefully those readings from earlier will help us move on to the next stage!

With a large blanket on my desk I then have issues from 800 down to the subs so I'm thinking the roof and side wall acoustic 10cm thick tiles need to be changed to broadband rockwool absorbers, if they might help combat mids-low mids?

Thankyou, again!
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