The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
How do you build a thick cloud?
Old 17th July 2020
  #1
How do you build a thick cloud?

Hi all - I want to build two 4'X4'ceiling clouds, both frames 10" deep, however, the how-to videos that I come across all show instructions for 2" or maybe 4" thick insulation.

I want to do 8" of OC 703, but with that much fiberglass hanging horizontally, I can't find examples of frame design anywhere that will support that without the insulation sagging (I assume). With that thick of a cloud, should I just resign myself to having to put some 1"X4" braces under the fiberglass (facing down into the room) in order to support? This would mean creating reflective surfaces on bottom face of cloud, which seems like a bummer to me.

The only other thing I can think of is reducing thickness to 6" and then gluing & screwing the OC 703 to the uppermost parts of the frame like hell and hoping that's sufficient.


Any design resources for these thick clouds that I see some of the knowledgeable folks on Gearslutz advocating for?
Old 17th July 2020
  #2
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolish View Post
Hi all - I want to build two 4'X4'ceiling clouds, both frames 10" deep, however, the how-to videos that I come across all show instructions for 2" or maybe 4" thick insulation.

I want to do 8" of OC 703, but with that much fiberglass hanging horizontally, I can't find examples of frame design anywhere that will support that without the insulation sagging (I assume). With that thick of a cloud, should I just resign myself to having to put some 1"X4" braces under the fiberglass (facing down into the room) in order to support? This would mean creating reflective surfaces on bottom face of cloud, which seems like a bummer to me.

The only other thing I can think of is reducing thickness to 6" and then gluing & screwing the OC 703 to the uppermost parts of the frame like hell and hoping that's sufficient.


Any design resources for these thick clouds that I see some of the knowledgeable folks on Gearslutz advocating for?
You can a build a frame with 1 x 5 x 8 or 10. Frame the inside of the rectangles with 3/4" lattice moulding. Staple the fabric to the inside of moulding. You can drop in insulation after.

If you need lights in your cloud, then use thin LED light packs rated for insulation. You can use some more 1 x 5's drill holes and insert lights, plus packs.

Something like picture attached but bigger.
Attached Thumbnails
How do you build a thick cloud?-mini-cloud.jpg  
Old 17th July 2020
  #3
Thanks so much:

Question - If I'm going to to a 4'X4' square, with strong metal L-brackets to keep the thing square, how much moulding should be put in to support 6" to 8" of OC 703?

In other words, what spacing would you recommend? every 12"? I'm also considering a center piece to the frame - as if I put two 2'x4' panels together, so that there is a center support. If I do this, I'm wondering if I can get away with a little less lattice moulding so as to maximize absorbtion?

Thanks again
Old 18th July 2020
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolish View Post
Thanks so much:

Question - If I'm going to to a 4'X4' square, with strong metal L-brackets to keep the thing square, how much moulding should be put in to support 6" to 8" of OC 703?

In other words, what spacing would you recommend? every 12"? I'm also considering a center piece to the frame - as if I put two 2'x4' panels together, so that there is a center support. If I do this, I'm wondering if I can get away with a little less lattice moulding so as to maximize absorbtion?

Thanks again
I don't use OC 703 anymore and prefer Rockboard 40 but only 4".
If you are in the in between range(6-9.5") SNS is better.

If you need to go 6"-9" then 1 X 5's for the frame won't cut it(not wide enough).

1x 8 or 1 X 10 is necessary which becomes heavy when its that big.

I would make it in 2 pieces or halves / 2' x 4' boxes and tie ( or screw them from behind) them together while they are up in the ceiling. You'll need help doing this, don't try to do it by yourself.

I frame the inside with the 3/4" moulding and glue it to the frame with vise grips and the strongest wood glue. The 3/4" width and stapling of the fabric tightly will keep the insulation from sagging. Also i gather you will add lights correct? Then having another 1 x 5( or whatever width needed) in the center will help strengthen it even more( you can staple the fabric to this as well).

This is a cloud correct? The moulding won't affect the absorption(its only 3/4" wide). If you don't use the moulding for the fabric, then you will have to find another solution.
Old 18th July 2020
  #5
Thanks again,

Well, my head is spinning w/ the whole design & on the insulation thickness. I've been reading & reading, and as I'm sure you're aware, Gearslutz can be a blessing and a curse in that when you ask about a specific thickness, you get different guidance, from very knowledgeable people.

I settled on the OC 703 after reading over & over that it was the best material for what I'm doing. I settled on 6" to 8" thick after reading in multiple locations that 4" to 6" for OC 703 was the "sweet spot" for broadband on a budget, and also seeing Avare's guidance that the minimum recommendation for porous absorption is 8". I also spoke with Chips Davis via phone (briefly, I wasn't paying him), and he looked at my room sketch - he said 2" OC 703 clouds, but also said to leave enough room on the cloud over the tracking area to put some OC R-19 (typical pink fluffy) if, after treating the room, I still noticed some rogue frequencies.

Davis knows his stuff, but the plan he gave me for my room seems to be VERY light, given what I'm reading on GearSlutz, esp: Ethan Winer, Avare, & others. He programmed 2" of OC 703 on 2" furring strips on my front wall, covering that whole wall, then 1" fiberglass (not sure if that's even available) on 1" furring strips on side walls, spaced evenly & capturing the corners - no bass traps.

My room is 6.5' W X 12" L X 8.5 to 11' H (vaulted ceiling - diagonal from high on one side to low on the other). It's a combo room - I'll only track guitars, and 85% acoustic, but would like to be able to mix full band stuff in there too, if feasible. I'm aware that my room size is really problematic, but it's my only option.


So, I'm trying to go heavy on absorbtion on my ceiling where I can, as that is where I have space in my tiny room, and others have said that for broadband absorption in clouds, a good approach is to go as thick as practically possible.

In terms of lights in the clouds, I wasn't going to do that at this point, although I can revisit that.

I wanted to go with 1'X10" so that I can have 8" thick fiberglass if I want to (again, trying to go deep to get the sonic illusion of a bigger room if I can). From the designs I see available, it looks like I'll need 10" wide lumber, as I'll lose an inch on top and bottom for necessary framing.

Thanks for the design tips - I'll scratch my head some more.
Old 18th July 2020
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolish View Post
Thanks again,

Well, my head is spinning w/ the whole design & on the insulation thickness. I've been reading & reading, and as I'm sure you're aware, Gearslutz can be a blessing and a curse in that when you ask about a specific thickness, you get different guidance, from very knowledgeable people.

I settled on the OC 703 after reading over & over that it was the best material for what I'm doing. I settled on 6" to 8" thick after reading in multiple locations that 4" to 6" for OC 703 was the "sweet spot" for broadband on a budget, and also seeing Avare's guidance that the minimum recommendation for porous absorption is 8". I also spoke with Chips Davis via phone (briefly, I wasn't paying him), and he looked at my room sketch - he said 2" OC 703 clouds, but also said to leave enough room on the cloud over the tracking area to put some OC R-19 (typical pink fluffy) if, after treating the room, I still noticed some rogue frequencies.

Davis knows his stuff, but the plan he gave me for my room seems to be VERY light, given what I'm reading on GearSlutz, esp: Ethan Winer, Avare, & others. He programmed 2" of OC 703 on 2" furring strips on my front wall, covering that whole wall, then 1" fiberglass (not sure if that's even available) on 1" furring strips on side walls, spaced evenly & capturing the corners - no bass traps.

My room is 6.5' W X 12" L X 8.5 to 11' H (vaulted ceiling - diagonal from high on one side to low on the other). It's a combo room - I'll only track guitars, and 85% acoustic, but would like to be able to mix full band stuff in there too, if feasible. I'm aware that my room size is really problematic, but it's my only option.


So, I'm trying to go heavy on absorbtion on my ceiling where I can, as that is where I have space in my tiny room, and others have said that for broadband absorption in clouds, a good approach is to go as thick as practically possible.

In terms of lights in the clouds, I wasn't going to do that at this point, although I can revisit that.

I wanted to go with 1'X10" so that I can have 8" thick fiberglass if I want to (again, trying to go deep to get the sonic illusion of a bigger room if I can). From the designs I see available, it looks like I'll need 10" wide lumber, as I'll lose an inch on top and bottom for necessary framing.

Thanks for the design tips - I'll scratch my head some more.
I hear you brother it can feel overwhelming.

If you will have a gap I feel 4"-6" is fine for a cloud. It will definitely trap the specular reflections from the speakers.
(I've attached a comparison of 6" Rockboad vs. 6" Safe and sound with a 4" gap on ceiling).

And Chip is right if you feel the ceiling modes are too strong in your space you can add fluffy on top if you desire.

If you want to build a bass trap for the 0-0-1 and 0-0-2 modes then something thicker might be warranted but if it were me i would do a whole ceiling treatment and not float a cloud( but that's me).

Lastly i would advise on some lights in your Cloud if its going over your head. I don't know about you but its nice to be able to see when working (You can do any design you like).
Attached Thumbnails
How do you build a thick cloud?-screen-shot-2020-07-17-7.49.57-pm.jpg  
Old 18th July 2020
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Ive used finish nails partially banged in/sticking out of the frame on clouds before and it worked fine. Just an alternative to furring/moulding which also is fine.

The general rule if thumb is the thicker the cloud, the lower the gfr of the insulation. If you use a dense / high gfr insulation and its thick, it can start to reflect bass or at least be inefficient down there in the lows.

Something like 4" of RB40 with fluffy on top seems like a nice cloud.

If i recall correctly avare reccomends a min depth of 8" when using exclusively safe and sound.
Old 18th July 2020
  #8
Thanks to both of you!

Thrillfactor: thanks for including the comparison. What is your thinking on the issue of "normal incidence" - my(very novice) understanding from this old thread discussion:

Low end response is fine but low mids are horroble. Why why why?

Low end response is fine but low mids are horroble. Why why why? (different link - straight to the "normal incidence" discussion.


....was that there are considerations beyond the absorbtion coefficients shared by manufacturers, there is the resistivity & "normal incidence" vs. the testing done in lab conditions by manufacturers. I think this was one of the reasons I was thinking that should go thicker, also considering that in a small room like mine, I'll want to mitigate as much as I can.


The RB-40 has is 4lbs pcf while OC is 3lbs pcf - given the uses I'll be going for, why do you think the Rockboard is a better bet? Or rather, why did you move on from OC 703?

This was one of the reads I came across today that sold me on the OC 703, esp. after reading Ethan Winer's reviews of it.

https://www.readyacoustics.com/index...3_4&faqs_id=36


So, I think what I might do is plan on a cloud that can do 6" of OC 703, given that there will be more that 4" open space behind it. It's open space, but my vaulted ceiling with give me that. I think going with 1"X8" frame will do that for me. Building it in 2 2'x4' pieces is great - then lock them together - thanks!

I'll revisit lights - seeing is pretty nice.


Kyle - thanks for the idea of the partially-sunk nails - that's clever! Based on link I pasted above, looks like 6" of 3 lbs pcf (OC 703) is pretty good for 4" - 6" thick??
Old 18th July 2020
  #9
Lives for gear
 
nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

I made some using 1" by 8" hanging them from the ceiling, looked pretty nice too, IMHO...
Old 18th July 2020
  #10
Lives for gear
 
nosebleedaudio's Avatar
 

I made some using 1" by 8" hanging them from the ceiling, looked pretty nice too, IMHO...
Old 18th July 2020
  #11
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolish View Post
Thanks to both of you!

Thrillfactor: thanks for including the comparison. What is your thinking on the issue of "normal incidence" - my(very novice) understanding from this old thread discussion:

Low end response is fine but low mids are horroble. Why why why?

Low end response is fine but low mids are horroble. Why why why?


....was that there are considerations beyond the absorbtion coefficients shared by manufacturers, there is the resistivity & "normal incidence" vs. the testing done in lab conditions by manufacturers. I think this was one of the reasons I was thinking that should go thicker, also considering that in a small room like mine, I'll want to mitigate as much as I can.


The RB-40 has is 4lbs pcf while OC is 3lbs pcf - given the uses I'll be going for, why do you think the Rockboard is a better bet? Or rather, why did you move on from OC 703?

This was one of the reads I came across today that sold me on the OC 703, esp. after reading Ethan Winer's reviews of it.

https://www.readyacoustics.com/index...3_4&faqs_id=36


So, I think what I might do is plan on a cloud that can do 6" of OC 703, given that there will be more that 4" open space behind it. It's open space, but my vaulted ceiling with give me that. I think going with 1"X8" frame will do that for me. Building it in 2 2'x4' pieces is great - then lock them together - thanks!

I'll revisit lights - seeing is pretty nice.


Kyle - thanks for the idea of the partially-sunk nails - that's clever! Based on link I pasted above, looks like 6" of 3 lbs pcf (OC 703) is pretty good for 4" - 6" thick??
First of all have you measured your space? What is the measurement telling you about the ceiling?

Why Rockboard 40 over OC 703? Avare has posted it a bunch of times, the way 703 is made is different then years ago and in lab testing its worse then before at 125 hz( down to .51). Rockboard 40 measures very well down to 125hz(1.04).

Also its pretty easy for me to obtain and its cheap( make sure to buy the special knife to cut and wear long sleeves, gloves and mask).

My last suggestion is to put a little of your own personality into the cloud design since you are doing this for your studio. Its going to take up a lot of real estate up there so it will be a big part of the look of your place.

Think about what would inspire you if you stare at the ceiling. Remember if you are going to be working in a space for long amount of hours, it should not only be useful, but comfortable and inspiring as well ( or i think so anyway).
Attached Thumbnails
How do you build a thick cloud?-screen-shot-2020-07-17-8.42.13-pm.png   How do you build a thick cloud?-screen-shot-2020-07-17-8.43.20-pm.jpg  
Old 18th July 2020
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolish View Post
Thanks to both of you!

Thrillfactor: thanks for including the comparison. What is your thinking on the issue of "normal incidence" - my(very novice) understanding from this old thread discussion:

Low end response is fine but low mids are horroble. Why why why?

Low end response is fine but low mids are horroble. Why why why? (different link - straight to the "normal incidence" discussion.


....was that there are considerations beyond the absorbtion coefficients shared by manufacturers, there is the resistivity & "normal incidence" vs. the testing done in lab conditions by manufacturers. I think this was one of the reasons I was thinking that should go thicker, also considering that in a small room like mine, I'll want to mitigate as much as I can.


The RB-40 has is 4lbs pcf while OC is 3lbs pcf - given the uses I'll be going for, why do you think the Rockboard is a better bet? Or rather, why did you move on from OC 703?

This was one of the reads I came across today that sold me on the OC 703, esp. after reading Ethan Winer's reviews of it.

https://www.readyacoustics.com/index...3_4&faqs_id=36


So, I think what I might do is plan on a cloud that can do 6" of OC 703, given that there will be more that 4" open space behind it. It's open space, but my vaulted ceiling with give me that. I think going with 1"X8" frame will do that for me. Building it in 2 2'x4' pieces is great - then lock them together - thanks!

I'll revisit lights - seeing is pretty nice.


Kyle - thanks for the idea of the partially-sunk nails - that's clever! Based on link I pasted above, looks like 6" of 3 lbs pcf (OC 703) is pretty good for 4" - 6" thick??
This post is what changed me over to RB40

Cloud thickness 2” vs 4”

If you go to acousticmodeling.com you can play with different layers and thickness and gfr. The gfr is more important than density. Density and gfr are related but not the same. ie 2x density doesn't equal 2x in gfr.

With a vaulted ceiling i always look at it as an opportunity for broadband bass trapping. In smaller rooms especially where floor space is premium. This is why my thinking leans more towards 2-4" RB, and fluffy, to maximize bass trapping. Any remaining airspace will aid bass trapping as well.

Here jens made a chart showing some different thicknesses and the response of it.

Cloud thickness 2” vs 4”

If you check the RB and OC websites you can get the absorption data.
Old 18th July 2020
  #13
Lives for gear
 
avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
If you check the RB and OC websites you can get the absorption data.
Data sheets are attahed to post 6 in this thread.
Old 18th July 2020
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
Data sheets are attahed to post 6 in this thread.
Thank you!
Old 18th July 2020
  #15
I have not measured the space's sound whatsoever yet. Basically, I started the build before really finding out more about everything I needed to learn more about. So, I picked up Rod G's book, read it, and I've been losing my mind ever since.

I got an initial consult from two different engineers, a convo with Chips Davis, and thus a preliminary design. Long story short, since my room is existing construction, and very small, I figured that my limitations meant that I had few options. Finally, since It's still open studs & electrical isn't in yet, I need to put in blocking between ceiling joists to support heavy ceiling clouds - I also have lights & HVAC mini-split programmed nearby, so that's why I'm feeling urgency to get precise dimensions so I can get the infrastructure roughed in, then proceed with electrical, HVAC, wall & ceiling insulation, and finally drywall.

I'm super excited to measure, I just don't know where to start, given that the room isn't built yet. I'm just going by the design I have so far, and trying to reasonably predict what I'll need and do things that allow me flexibility to modify in the future w/o breaching my walls, etc.

Since room is open studs w/ no insulation or interior walls, including ceiling - is there any testing that will help refine design at this point, or just proceed with the build & then treat once room is built?

With the vaulted ceiling I have above the clouds, I was thinking I could also add higher quality acoustic tiles (Rod G. mentions a specific product that he says are really nice for broadband). There is also what Kyle mentions on this thread - I could do some broadband bass trapping. C. Davis told me directly that I won't need either of these if I follow his design, but Ethan and SO many others say that for small rooms, bass trapping is super important, and you really can't overdo it. ?? I'm mostly doing acoustic guitars, but also want to mix some full band stuff - would you recommend me getting bass traps in where I can?

Thanks for your help - and I'll definitely give the Rockboard a hard look. It's tough, b/c there are people who are SO high on OC 703 and it comes up over & over.

Do you know of any source that provides the "normal incidence data" on the RB?

I hear you on the clouds & lights - 100%. The room has to be right. I had an original design, I purchased the lights, drivers, dimmers, etc, then found out I needed to do a 2nd cloud over the tracking area, so I worked really hard to reprogram the lighting scheme, and couldn't get much help on putting lights in my clouds from my best electrical contact. I'll look back into this again - I'll also need to add another circuit to accomplish this.

On a related note, I have some recessed room lights ready to go (original design), and then I was going to do LED tape lights on the upper side of clouds to illuminate the ceiling for ambient light, on a separate circuit. I suppose I could also put tape lights on down side of the cloud to get more light into the room as well.

Thanks again - it's nice being able to bounce these challenges off of people who know.

-Cheers
Old 18th July 2020
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolish View Post
I have not measured the space's sound whatsoever yet. Basically, I started the build before really finding out more about everything I needed to learn more about. So, I picked up Rod G's book, read it, and I've been losing my mind ever since.

I got an initial consult from two different engineers, a convo with Chips Davis, and thus a preliminary design. Long story short, since my room is existing construction, and very small, I figured that my limitations meant that I had few options. Finally, since It's still open studs & electrical isn't in yet, I need to put in blocking between ceiling joists to support heavy ceiling clouds - I also have lights & HVAC mini-split programmed nearby, so that's why I'm feeling urgency to get precise dimensions so I can get the infrastructure roughed in, then proceed with electrical, HVAC, wall & ceiling insulation, and finally drywall.

I'm super excited to measure, I just don't know where to start, given that the room isn't built yet. I'm just going by the design I have so far, and trying to reasonably predict what I'll need and do things that allow me flexibility to modify in the future w/o breaching my walls, etc.

Since room is open studs w/ no insulation or interior walls, including ceiling - is there any testing that will help refine design at this point, or just proceed with the build & then treat once room is built?

With the vaulted ceiling I have above the clouds, I was thinking I could also add higher quality acoustic tiles (Rod G. mentions a specific product that he says are really nice for broadband). There is also what Kyle mentions on this thread - I could do some broadband bass trapping. C. Davis told me directly that I won't need either of these if I follow his design, but Ethan and SO many others say that for small rooms, bass trapping is super important, and you really can't overdo it. ?? I'm mostly doing acoustic guitars, but also want to mix some full band stuff - would you recommend me getting bass traps in where I can?

Thanks for your help - and I'll definitely give the Rockboard a hard look. It's tough, b/c there are people who are SO high on OC 703 and it comes up over & over.

Do you know of any source that provides the "normal incidence data" on the RB?

I hear you on the clouds & lights - 100%. The room has to be right. I had an original design, I purchased the lights, drivers, dimmers, etc, then found out I needed to do a 2nd cloud over the tracking area, so I worked really hard to reprogram the lighting scheme, and couldn't get much help on putting lights in my clouds from my best electrical contact. I'll look back into this again - I'll also need to add another circuit to accomplish this.

On a related note, I have some recessed room lights ready to go (original design), and then I was going to do LED tape lights on the upper side of clouds to illuminate the ceiling for ambient light, on a separate circuit. I suppose I could also put tape lights on down side of the cloud to get more light into the room as well.

Thanks again - it's nice being able to bounce these challenges off of people who know.

-Cheers
Yes get the full shell up before you shoot. Planning is always great, but just be prepared to adjust if needed.

In small rooms bass trapping is a priority and necessity.

When it comes to the lighting it just depends how much natural light is in room already and how much installed lighting you need to function. Also what colors, fabrics and such you are using in your design. In smalller rooms its always better to go lighter(whites, off whites, light colors) in ceiling colors and fabrics as it makes the room look taller. But I've been to studios that it wasn't the case so its based on preference.
Old 18th July 2020
  #17
Got it. You're the man - thank you.
Old 18th July 2020
  #18
Thanks Kyle & thanks Avare!
Old 18th July 2020
  #19
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolish View Post
I have not measured the space's sound whatsoever yet. Basically, I started the build before really finding out more about everything I needed to learn more about. So, I picked up Rod G's book, read it, and I've been losing my mind ever since.

I got an initial consult from two different engineers, a convo with Chips Davis, and thus a preliminary design. Long story short, since my room is existing construction, and very small, I figured that my limitations meant that I had few options. Finally, since It's still open studs & electrical isn't in yet, I need to put in blocking between ceiling joists to support heavy ceiling clouds - I also have lights & HVAC mini-split programmed nearby, so that's why I'm feeling urgency to get precise dimensions so I can get the infrastructure roughed in, then proceed with electrical, HVAC, wall & ceiling insulation, and finally drywall.

I'm super excited to measure, I just don't know where to start, given that the room isn't built yet. I'm just going by the design I have so far, and trying to reasonably predict what I'll need and do things that allow me flexibility to modify in the future w/o breaching my walls, etc.

Since room is open studs w/ no insulation or interior walls, including ceiling - is there any testing that will help refine design at this point, or just proceed with the build & then treat once room is built?

With the vaulted ceiling I have above the clouds, I was thinking I could also add higher quality acoustic tiles (Rod G. mentions a specific product that he says are really nice for broadband). There is also what Kyle mentions on this thread - I could do some broadband bass trapping. C. Davis told me directly that I won't need either of these if I follow his design, but Ethan and SO many others say that for small rooms, bass trapping is super important, and you really can't overdo it. ?? I'm mostly doing acoustic guitars, but also want to mix some full band stuff - would you recommend me getting bass traps in where I can?

Thanks for your help - and I'll definitely give the Rockboard a hard look. It's tough, b/c there are people who are SO high on OC 703 and it comes up over & over.

Do you know of any source that provides the "normal incidence data" on the RB?

I hear you on the clouds & lights - 100%. The room has to be right. I had an original design, I purchased the lights, drivers, dimmers, etc, then found out I needed to do a 2nd cloud over the tracking area, so I worked really hard to reprogram the lighting scheme, and couldn't get much help on putting lights in my clouds from my best electrical contact. I'll look back into this again - I'll also need to add another circuit to accomplish this.

On a related note, I have some recessed room lights ready to go (original design), and then I was going to do LED tape lights on the upper side of clouds to illuminate the ceiling for ambient light, on a separate circuit. I suppose I could also put tape lights on down side of the cloud to get more light into the room as well.

Thanks again - it's nice being able to bounce these challenges off of people who know.

-Cheers
With regard to oc vs rb, the numbers are there, and in small rooms bass trapping is key, so this defaults to rb.

As far as testing i don't have any data beyond the spec sheets. Its important to note that whether the test is based on a diffuse feild, or normal incidence, its not describing conditions that are occurring in your room. So the measurement data is useful as a relative guage of performance between products, and the standardized tests keep things apples to apples.

Even the most sophisticated acoustic modeling software isn't going to be super accurate in small rooms. Add to the situation a room that is "lossy" ie not incredibly massive and airtight, and things get even less predictable. Fortunately this loss is in the lows generally, which can be a good thing.

I cannot speak on C Davis's design parameters, only what i have learned, which is generally speaking you can't have too much bass trapping in small rooms, there isn't enough physical space to do so.

You can always mount the leds in the clouds, and can also mount electrical in the acoustic baffles.
Old 19th July 2020
  #20
Thanks Kyle - much appreciated, that's helpful. I definitely have some ceiling real estate to play with in terms of bass trapping. So, I'm needing to move forward with the build, so for now, I just need dimensions for hanging two clouds so I can put in some framing in the ceiling to support weight.

Given my room limitations, and the uncertainty w/ small rooms you describe, I'm thinking that that I could do a 10" deep or 12" deep frame for the clouds, which will allow me to try different treatments in the clouds, at a variety of thicknesses, to fine tune the room once it is built. E.G. - RB-40 @ anywhere from 2"-6", with fluffy R-19 & paper side up for upper bass trapping near the ceiling. Alternatives could be 8" thick of Safe&Sound, then 2"-3" of fluffy, etc. Point is, I think my best option is to build a deep cloud that gives me options down the road.

Does that seem about right?

I hope that the end of this, my room isn't too lossy - I don't have decoupling (just not possible in my situation), but I've got some decent mass - not professional grade, but decent, and then I've obsessed about filling air gaps. I suppose that bass frequencies will still escape though, and as you say, for acoustic purposes, that's not a bad thing.
Old 19th July 2020
  #21
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolish View Post
Thanks Kyle - much appreciated, that's helpful. I definitely have some ceiling real estate to play with in terms of bass trapping. So, I'm needing to move forward with the build, so for now, I just need dimensions for hanging two clouds so I can put in some framing in the ceiling to support weight.

Given my room limitations, and the uncertainty w/ small rooms you describe, I'm thinking that that I could do a 10" deep or 12" deep frame for the clouds, which will allow me to try different treatments in the clouds, at a variety of thicknesses, to fine tune the room once it is built. E.G. - RB-40 @ anywhere from 2"-6", with fluffy R-19 & paper side up for upper bass trapping near the ceiling. Alternatives could be 8" thick of Safe&Sound, then 2"-3" of fluffy, etc. Point is, I think my best option is to build a deep cloud that gives me options down the road.

Does that seem about right?

I hope that the end of this, my room isn't too lossy - I don't have decoupling (just not possible in my situation), but I've got some decent mass - not professional grade, but decent, and then I've obsessed about filling air gaps. I suppose that bass frequencies will still escape though, and as you say, for acoustic purposes, that's not a bad thing.
If your frame is thick enough to house the thickest amount of insulation you expect might be used, it makes sense to me. If you end up not filling the frame completely, the airspace is not bad.
Old 19th July 2020
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolish View Post
Thanks Kyle - much appreciated, that's helpful. I definitely have some ceiling real estate to play with in terms of bass trapping. So, I'm needing to move forward with the build, so for now, I just need dimensions for hanging two clouds so I can put in some framing in the ceiling to support weight.

Given my room limitations, and the uncertainty w/ small rooms you describe, I'm thinking that that I could do a 10" deep or 12" deep frame for the clouds, which will allow me to try different treatments in the clouds, at a variety of thicknesses, to fine tune the room once it is built. E.G. - RB-40 @ anywhere from 2"-6", with fluffy R-19 & paper side up for upper bass trapping near the ceiling. Alternatives could be 8" thick of Safe&Sound, then 2"-3" of fluffy, etc. Point is, I think my best option is to build a deep cloud that gives me options down the road.

Does that seem about right?

I hope that the end of this, my room isn't too lossy - I don't have decoupling (just not possible in my situation), but I've got some decent mass - not professional grade, but decent, and then I've obsessed about filling air gaps. I suppose that bass frequencies will still escape though, and as you say, for acoustic purposes, that's not a bad thing.
If you build a frame that thick, than possibly covering the frame with fabric will tie it together better than a stain/shellac exposed wood type of look. Something to consider.

Also if the 0-0-1 or 1-0-1 mode is really a problem in your space, you may have to build membranes or corner trapping, so you need some space on ceiling to maneuver. If your cloud is too thick it will make it more difficult for placement.
Old 19th July 2020
  #23
Gear Head
 

Not sure this is helpful but I'm going to be using two of these 2x4 9 inch thick frames mounted side by side, each with three layers of safe n sound for my cloud. I'm still in the process of putting everything together but I am going to mount them fairly flush with the ceiling, probably using a wood track with french cleat style mounting so I can span across the joists. Unless I'm lucky and can use eye bolts, depending on where the joists are.
Attached Thumbnails
How do you build a thick cloud?-panelframes.jpg  
Old 19th July 2020
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakaland View Post
Not sure this is helpful but I'm going to be using two of these 2x4 9 inch thick frames mounted side by side, each with three layers of safe n sound for my cloud. I'm still in the process of putting everything together but I am going to mount them fairly flush with the ceiling, probably using a wood track with french cleat style mounting so I can span across the joists. Unless I'm lucky and can use eye bolts, depending on where the joists are.
Yeah should be fine.

I would do the eye bolts, chain or metal wire and some kind of anchors in ceiling.

If you go this direction, 4 bolts on each ( 8 wires or chains) should hold it up well. You can think of how you want to attach them together while they are attached to ceiling.

Have you thought about how you will attach fabric?
Old 19th July 2020
  #25
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
Yeah should be fine.

I would do the eye bolts, chain or metal wire and some kind of anchors in ceiling.

If you go this direction, 4 bolts on each ( 8 wires or chains) should hold it up well. You can think of how you want to attach them together while they are attached to ceiling.

Have you thought about how you will attach fabric?
Sounds good. The bolts are probably the best option. The picture doesn't show it but I've also installed 3.5 inch wood supports at the backs of the units, along the top and bottom.

For the fabric I'm using GOM. I'm going to wrap each unit completely in fabric and staple to the back, folded in neatly in corners. Before the fabric I was going to wrap thin 1/4 light polyester batting over the frames to make the wrapping part tidier and keep the fabric from potentially ripping over the wood corners during this part of the build.

I was thinking of running a couple of drywall tape mesh strips on the fronts and stapled to the wood (on the inside part of the frames) before the poly and fabric wrap, to help prevent insulation sag since they are hanging.
Old 20th July 2020
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakaland View Post
Sounds good. The bolts are probably the best option. The picture doesn't show it but I've also installed 3.5 inch wood supports at the backs of the units, along the top and bottom.

For the fabric I'm using GOM. I'm going to wrap each unit completely in fabric and staple to the back, folded in neatly in corners. Before the fabric I was going to wrap thin 1/4 light polyester batting over the frames to make the wrapping part tidier and keep the fabric from potentially ripping over the wood corners during this part of the build.

I was thinking of running a couple of drywall tape mesh strips on the fronts and stapled to the wood (on the inside part of the frames) before the poly and fabric wrap, to help prevent insulation sag since they are hanging.
In case you choose not to staple, the system the professional Architectural designers(like WSDG) use in their designs for attaching fabric to walls, soffits, clouds is this:

https://wallmate.net/

https://www.fabritrak.com/products/fabritrak-system

https://www.fabricmate.com/acoustic-solutions

They work incredibly well. I helped someone install one for a WSDG design and its amazing how good it looks when its up. Once you get the the tracks and the right tools its pretty easy.
Old 20th July 2020
  #27
Thrill, Kyle, and Draka - thanks - some more great ideas there.

Thrill - I was thinking of my clouds wrapped entirely in fabric all along, primarily because it will hide the inexpensive wood & my very limited carpentry. What I'm stuck on now is what the assembly would look like with lights installed if fabric if it's all wrapped in fabric. It's in my home, so I want to be on the right side of fire ratings, safety, etc.

You guys got me thinking of bass trapping, so that will be another thing to think about. Right now, I think I need to just set up the infrastructure behind the walls and space things out so that I have options down the road. So, I'm thinking that I keep the corners free that I can - not program electrical outlets in or too near them, etc.

Thrill - I've read up on corner bass treatments, but not familiar with the membrane reference - can you elaborate a little? I'm spending lots of time staring at what will be my ceiling trying to visualize my options.

On my long walls, the clouds will be 14" inches from the wall on either side - so on the high pitched corner of the room, I should definitely have some room to install long corner trapping, as that end will have some room above the cloud.

I'd like to post 2 or 3 pics of my space - do you guys know the trick to posting a photo? When I try to include one - it asks me for a url address for the photo???

Thanks again.
Old 20th July 2020
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolish View Post
Thrill, Kyle, and Draka - thanks - some more great ideas there.

Thrill - I was thinking of my clouds wrapped entirely in fabric all along, primarily because it will hide the inexpensive wood & my very limited carpentry. What I'm stuck on now is what the assembly would look like with lights installed if fabric if it's all wrapped in fabric. It's in my home, so I want to be on the right side of fire ratings, safety, etc.

You guys got me thinking of bass trapping, so that will be another thing to think about. Right now, I think I need to just set up the infrastructure behind the walls and space things out so that I have options down the road. So, I'm thinking that I keep the corners free that I can - not program electrical outlets in or too near them, etc.

Thrill - I've read up on corner bass treatments, but not familiar with the membrane reference - can you elaborate a little? I'm spending lots of time staring at what will be my ceiling trying to visualize my options.

On my long walls, the clouds will be 14" inches from the wall on either side - so on the high pitched corner of the room, I should definitely have some room to install long corner trapping, as that end will have some room above the cloud.

I'd like to post 2 or 3 pics of my space - do you guys know the trick to posting a photo? When I try to include one - it asks me for a url address for the photo???

Thanks again.
In most of the cloud designs i've done recently i've been using Lithonia canless LED's. They are fire rated, come in different shapes( either circles or squares), sizes, lumens, plus they have brushed aluminum which i favor in my designs. They are dimmable and really thin and easy to install.

I've stopped using the cans because in some rooms the ceilings are too low and i need to maximize the depth as best as i can in some clouds. If you use cans you have to be sure they are fire rated.

I would definitely look into a track system with the tools if you are wrapping the clouds instead of stapling. Unless you are an upholstering god( i am really good with a pneumatic stapler but that's when building traps with the sides exposed).
The wall track system looks really professional and sleek with the GOM fabric.
Old 20th July 2020
  #29
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
In case you choose not to staple, the system the professional Architectural designers(like WSDG) use in their designs for attaching fabric to walls, soffits, clouds is this:

https://wallmate.net/

https://www.fabritrak.com/products/fabritrak-system

https://www.fabricmate.com/acoustic-solutions

They work incredibly well. I helped someone install one for a WSDG design and its amazing how good it looks when its up. Once you get the the tracks and the right tools its pretty easy.
Those systems look really cool. The only issue I have is more expense and wait time. I'm going to go at it the staple method to start but if it's really sloppy will consider.
Old 20th July 2020
  #30
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
You can also use track lighting or other surface mount options. Just throwing it out there.

You can also mount electrical boxes in your acoustic treatment. Example if you need outlets where the bass trap is, you can have an electical box in the trap itself.

The track systems thrill linked look very nice, very clean. If you go just fabric wrapped, you will get the hang of it quickly, its like wrapping a present. You can also cover seems and dress things up with various mouldings like 1/4 round, or thing lattice strips, or corner bead, ect.
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 54 views: 1851
Avatar for LoveEnigma
LoveEnigma 13th March 2020
replies: 1513 views: 83612
Avatar for MediaGary
MediaGary 42 minutes ago
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
πŸ–¨οΈ Show Printable Version
βœ‰οΈ Email this Page
πŸ” Search thread
πŸŽ™οΈ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump