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Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
Here for the gear
Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo

Dear reader,

Firstly I really appreciate your time!

I found these old bed frames in the attic and as a non-expert in the field of acoustics, I couldn't help but think these might have some effect as diffusor panels? I have seen quite a lot of professional panels (currently outside my budget) that incorporate diffusion panels on top of absorption, or the other way around.

(See Photos Below)

Apart from it possibly looking cool (if I paint them) will I gain anything by putting these panels in front of my back wall absorbers/traps, or would I simply create a huge reflective surface that cancels out the effect of the absorbers behind them?

I am aware that usually there is complex maths involved in calculating the most random scatter pattern for diffusors depending on the room, so I realise it might not work, but some panels I have seen online don't look that random on first glance (see attached photos).

Furthermore, I have also read that most experts here agree that diffusion for small rooms is usually not advised, as absorption works better, so it might be a stupid idea in general for my space. (I am planning on posting the exact dimensions etc, but I'm waiting for my measurement mic to arrive, so I can show the base-line response.


I figured it might be worth asking here.

Excuse my ignorance and lack of knowledge if the idea of using these frames is stupid.


Thanks in advance for your reply(ies)


- BL


Treasure or Trash* typo...
Attached Thumbnails
Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo-img_3045.jpg   Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo-13115806_800.jpg   Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo-screenshot-2020-06-21-13.32.12.png   Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo-screenshot-2020-06-21-13.32.08.png  
Attached Images
Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo-screenshot-2020-06-21-13.32.16.png 
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
Here for the gear
No one? I would really appreciate a quick comment, even if it is to tell me the idea won't work and is stupid!

Thanks.
Old 1 week ago
  #3
Here for the gear
Update

I painted them white and added 5 cm rockwoold absorption to the back that’s inside a frame the panels are attached to. I will measure the effectiveness of these non randomised indents as shallow cloud diffusor with absorption soon.
Old 1 week ago
  #4
Here for the gear
photos

here are some pics
Attached Thumbnails
Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo-img_3359.jpg   Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo-img_3358.jpg   Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo-img_3357.jpg   Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo-img_3356.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #5
Gear Head
 

Hello, what you have cannot be described as an diffuser, but it is shown that using this type of covering in front of superchunks can improve it's low end absorption and mantain mids and highs in the room.
Old 1 week ago
  #6
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exprymer View Post
Hello, what you have cannot be described as an diffuser, but it is shown that using this type of covering in front of superchunks can improve it's low end absorption and mantain mids and highs in the room.
Thanks for the reply,

I guess it will look cool and provide a little more absorption (seeing the holes let some of the sound get through to the absorption on the back), compared to just a regular ceiling. It won't be the cloud above my mixing area (just using absorption for that), but it will be further at the back of my room, so I guess it won't have a negative effect. I'll measure and see what it does.


Best,


- BL
Old 1 week ago
  #7
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryLimestone View Post
Dear reader,

Firstly I really appreciate your time!

I found these old bed frames in the attic and as a non-expert in the field of acoustics, I couldn't help but think these might have some effect as diffusor panels? I have seen quite a lot of professional panels (currently outside my budget) that incorporate diffusion panels on top of absorption, or the other way around.

(See Photos Below)

Apart from it possibly looking cool (if I paint them) will I gain anything by putting these panels in front of my back wall absorbers/traps, or would I simply create a huge reflective surface that cancels out the effect of the absorbers behind them?

I am aware that usually there is complex maths involved in calculating the most random scatter pattern for diffusors depending on the room, so I realise it might not work, but some panels I have seen online don't look that random on first glance (see attached photos).

Furthermore, I have also read that most experts here agree that diffusion for small rooms is usually not advised, as absorption works better, so it might be a stupid idea in general for my space. (I am planning on posting the exact dimensions etc, but I'm waiting for my measurement mic to arrive, so I can show the base-line response.


I figured it might be worth asking here.

Excuse my ignorance and lack of knowledge if the idea of using these frames is stupid.


Thanks in advance for your reply(ies)


- BL


Treasure or Trash* typo...
Hello,

This kind of product are NOT be used as a diffuser. exemple with a binary diffuser https://www.btacoustics.com/binary-abfuser

They could be a part (the front face) of an helmotz absorber. http://www.acousticmodelling.com/helmholtz.php
Old 1 week ago
  #8
Here for the gear
 

As Dinococcus already mentioned, this cannot be used as a diffuser.
I would not use such a thing in my studio as it will create more issues than it can resolve in my opinion.
Old 1 week ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Of course this is a diffuser.
Every alternation of absorption and reflection difusses sound.
It is just, theoretically speaking, working in a narrow band.
The normally applied difussers of this type have holes distributed by a mathematical calculation to provide a flat power response over a considerable frequency range.
(The effect of all these effords is questionable; I never saw measurements on these devices I could understand or consider representative. But they look fancy and technical, and that is very important).
Old 1 week ago
  #10
Here for the gear
Thanks for the comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
Of course this is a diffuser.
Every alternation of absorption and reflection difusses sound.
It is just, theoretically speaking, working in a narrow band.
The normally applied difussers of this type have holes distributed by a mathematical calculation to provide a flat power response over a considerable frequency range.
(The effect of all these effords is questionable; I never saw measurements on these devices I could understand or consider representative. But they look fancy and technical, and that is very important).

Thanks for your comment. I mentioned in the original post that I do realise normally maths are involved in calculating a random scatter pattern.

Currently they’re on my ceiling at the back. I have bass traps in corners, absorption at first reflections panels and clouds, and some diffusion on top of more absorption at the back of my room as well. The ceiling is made from wooden slats, so I don’t think this makes it sound worse, and the absorption that’s behind it probably absorbs some sound (around 5 cms of rockwool). So as you mention it looks cool, and probably isn’t doing much, or at least changing the sound of the room much compared to the bare slats.
Old 1 week ago
  #11
Gear Addict
 

I can’t comment on its acoustic qualities...but this item is visually very appealing. The microphones don’t care how a studio looks, but people who use it might care quite a bit.
Old 1 week ago
  #12
Here for the gear
Update

Here is a pic. Dunno if I’ll leave it up, but as I mentioned there is absorption in it as well, so maybe.
Attached Thumbnails
Treasure or Thrash? Diffusor/Absorber Combo-16d0f7a5-a655-41bf-b7d9-223fc92961f1.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #13
Moderator
 
Northward's Avatar
The beauty of these things is that they are poor absorbers and poor diffusors at the same time.

Not exactly a win/win situation.
Old 1 week ago
  #14
Here for the gear
Absorption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
The beauty of these things is that they are poor absorbers and poor diffusors at the same time.

Not exactly a win/win situation.
Even with the absorption behind it ? 5cm, not really visible in the photo.
Old 1 week ago
  #15
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
The beauty of these things is that they are poor absorbers and poor diffusors at the same time.

Not exactly a win/win situation.
What is presented here or these abfussors or whatever they call 'm in general?
Old 1 week ago
  #16
Moderator
 
Northward's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
What is presented here or these abfussors or whatever they call 'm in general?
In general... You can't have your cake and eat it too.

They serve a purpose in some cases, but IMHO not in a pro studio where depending on the room (CR, LR etc) another more decisive approach is typically much better.
Old 1 week ago
  #17
Moderator
 
Northward's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryLimestone View Post
Even with the absorption behind it ? 5cm, not really visible in the photo.
5cm in the studio world is not very useful: it's very band limited.
Old 1 week ago
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
In general... You can't have your cake and eat it too.

They serve a purpose in some cases, but IMHO not in a pro studio where depending on the room (CR, LR etc) another more decisive approach is typically much better.
He's from France, I think he means too = twice.
Old 1 week ago
  #19
Gear Nut
 

I say keep them. They look really cool, plus when you get your mixes sounding great, you can attribute it all to your “secret weapon” acoustic treatment. Everyone will want them.😜
Old 6 days ago
  #20
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
5cm in the studio world is not very useful: it's very band limited.
I realise that, but this is on top of normal/preexistent treatment that's already in my room (Bass traps, Broadband panels and real Diffusers). You're right in that it probably won't do much, if anything. But normally that area is bare, just a wooden ceiling, so all I'm saying is that it's not worse than the ceiling one would think...?

Thanks for you comment!
Old 2 days ago
  #21
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
Of course this is a diffuser.
Every alternation of absorption and reflection difusses sound.
It is just, theoretically speaking, working in a narrow band.
The normally applied difussers of this type have holes distributed by a mathematical calculation to provide a flat power response over a considerable frequency range.
(The effect of all these effords is questionable; I never saw measurements on these devices I could understand or consider representative. But they look fancy and technical, and that is very important).


It seems to me than you increase the level of you answer.
Old 2 days ago
  #22
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post


It seems to me than you increase the level of you answer.
??
Old 2 days ago
  #23
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
??
i could write : a coca cola bottle can made a great helmholtz resonator in the bert world.
Old 2 days ago
  #24
Lives for gear
 
andrebrito's Avatar
That panel has a very large opening area, meaning the peak of absorption is going to be quite wide at mid frequencies and then rolling off at high frequencies. Efficiency as a diffuser is not great.

Could be a nice panel for a tracking room. Not really for a control room IMO
Old 1 day ago
  #25
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
i could write : a coca cola bottle can made a great helmholtz resonator in the bert world.
And in the Dinoworld a 5 cm absorber isn't an absorber when you happen to want a 20 cm absorber?
Old 1 day ago
  #26
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
And in the Dinoworld a 5 cm absorber isn't an absorber when you happen to want a 20 cm absorber?
Assertion that is only yours
Old 1 day ago
  #27
Without knowing the dimensions no one can say.

If you seal the trap, and the panel is 12mm plywood, the holes are 20mm and the spacing is 40mm over 50mm of 703 then something like this:

http://www.acousticmodelling.com/mli...2=50&v12=23600

If you aren’t sealing the trap then who knows what it will do.

I guess this is like a scatter plate, but without a calculated response.

What did they do in your room?
Old 5 hours ago
  #28
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grovestand View Post
Without knowing the dimensions no one can say.

If you seal the trap, and the panel is 12mm plywood, the holes are 20mm and the spacing is 40mm over 50mm of 703 then something like this:

http://www.acousticmodelling.com/mli...2=50&v12=23600

If you aren’t sealing the trap then who knows what it will do.

I guess this is like a scatter plate, but without a calculated response.

What did they do in your room?
Calculated response is what I think is what some people who read a lot on forums and maybe in books and never test stuff themselves use to much. If you just test this yourselve you know how good these devices work.
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