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Center of the room sounds better than 38% positioning
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Head
 

Center of the room sounds better than 38% positioning

Hello everyone,

Based on what I have gathered from this forum, I've come to the understanding that 38% is not a rule, rather a starting point for experimenting. I have recently realized that I am having trouble hearing between 39hz and 49 hz from my listening position, which is approximately 150 cm away from my speakers (Adam T7V). If I were to get rid of the bed (140x200 cm) behind me and move back 50 cm more, everything converges and I feel that this should be the sweet spot.

However, my room is 3 mt wide and 4 mt long, thus sitting 200 cm away from the front wall would mean that I would be sitting right at the center of this small room, which is also too far back and kind of contradicts the point of having "nearfield" monitors. I've wanted to make sure that this won't cause any room mode or resonance issues before installing my bass traps, as I want to make sure of any easy alterations I can make before start nailing or drilling stuff on the walls

Below are a couple of images from my room. I am planning on removing both the bed and cabinet, which will allow me to sit farther back and install bass traps at the sides (first reflection points), on top of 10 cm-thick rockwool panels at the corners and maybe a cloud over my seat. What else would you recommend for this packed space? Can sitting at the center work for this room? Can removing the bed and cabinet cause resonances and reverberations? I also think that the screen should be wall-mounted to be placed behind speakers, what are your thoughts on that?

Entrance: https://imgur.com/7Q2flcR
From the back: https://imgur.com/uejGJCp
From the rear side: https://imgur.com/ZG0Mxl9
Alternative view 1: https://imgur.com/bmO2j6m
Alternative view 2: https://imgur.com/FvSTtmn

I am currently unable to measure my room as I don't have a measurement mic, but will do so at the first opportunity. Thanks!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
Gear Head
 

Anyone?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by aslutforgear View Post
but will do so at the first opportunity. Thanks!
Get that done first and it will be easier to figure out where to go for there.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
Get that done first and it will be easier to figure out where to go for there.
Therotically speaking, can room treatment move forward and change the sweet spot in the room? Or does monitor placement always come first? If latter applies for most cases, I am going to need to revamp my room from scratch, maybe buy a larger screen, longer cables, longer desk etc, which is not something I look forward to right now, as I have never thought 2 meters would be the best place to sit in my room before buying "nearfield" monitors.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by aslutforgear View Post
Therotically speaking, can room treatment move forward and change the sweet spot in the room? Or does monitor placement always come first? If latter applies for most cases, I am going to need to revamp my room from scratch, maybe buy a larger screen, longer cables, longer desk etc, which is not something I look forward to right now, as I have never thought 2 meters would be the best place to sit in my room before buying "nearfield" monitors.
Theoretically if you build 3 ft trapping everywhere then yeah you may have to depending on how big your speakers are and if you can fit them, but hopefully you will have figured that out if you tested the room and build trapping accordingly.

Sitting half way will put you in the null of the first length mode but it will boost the second mode and you will have a peak. If your room is made of concrete and you can't treat your backwall for whatever reason, this maybe your only option to tame the first mode as it will be strong and long. But the minute you start treating the room for the peak of the second length mode your low end will start to drop off.

If you want to theoretically get an idea what your current speaker and listening position is doing, use the room silmulator in REW. You can either move the speakers or listening position or both to get a good idea what might happen afterwards.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
Theoretically if you build 3 ft trapping everywhere then yeah you may have to depending on how big your speakers are and if you can fit them, but hopefully you will have figured that out if you tested the room and build trapping accordingly.

Sitting half way will put you in the null of the first length mode but it will boost the second mode and you will have a peak. If your room is made of concrete and you can't treat your backwall for whatever reason, this maybe your only option to tame the first mode as it will be strong and long. But the minute you start treating the room for the peak of the second length mode your low end will start to drop off.

If you want to theoretically get an idea what your current speaker and listening position is doing, use the room silmulator in REW. You can either move the speakers or listening position or both to get a good idea what might happen afterwards.
Hey thank you very much for the feedback. So what I gather from what you have said is that I may hear everything better at the center of the room right now without treatment, but that's because I don't have any treatment at all and the center of the room is the only position where the first length mode ends and second length mode kicks in, which makes me think that it is the best place to sit. After proper room treatment, the length and power of these modes in the room may change, which will dictate my listening position. Did I understand correctly?

I am still having trouble wrapping my head around the fact that I can hear 40 hz sitting only 4 or 5 feet away from these 7 inch speakers. I read somewhere that 40 hz travels like 8 or 9 meters right? How a pitch that low can be heard right near the speakers? Isn't 2 meters the minimum distance I may able to hear such sub notes? I am only speculating here because I don't have that much first hand experience. For example, can someone sitting 50 cm away from 8 inch speakers hear 40 hz clearly, if the room treatment is successful?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by aslutforgear View Post
Hey thank you very much for the feedback. So what I gather from what you have said is that I may hear everything better at the center of the room right now without treatment, but that's because I don't have any treatment at all and the center of the room is the only position where the first length mode ends and second length mode kicks in, which makes me think that it is the best place to sit. After proper room treatment, the length and power of these modes in the room may change, which will dictate my listening position. Did I understand correctly?
Exactly.

Or almost. Its way less of the first and the peak of the second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aslutforgear View Post
For example, can someone sitting 50 cm away from 8 inch speakers hear 40 hz clearly, if the room treatment is successful?
You can hear 40hz on a pair of headphones right?

Theoretically your first length mode is 42.8hz. Can you hear it from 50cm clearly if room treatment is successful? Yes.
If you set up your speakers and your listening position in the center position of your room you are still going to hear 40hz -3db less, after "theoretically" perfect treatment.

I've attached the room simulator with setting up in the middle of the room and speakers 50cm away and theoretically "perfect treatment".
In this situation 42.9hz is -3db from 85.77hz which would usually be a big peak.

Now remember its theoretically perfect treatment which in most cases is almost impossible.
Attached Thumbnails
Center of the room sounds better than 38% positioning-screen-shot-2020-06-08-3.20.22-pm.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #8
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor View Post
Exactly.

Or almost. Its way less of the first and the peak of the second.



You can hear 40hz on a pair of headphones right?

Theoretically your first length mode is 42.8hz. Can you hear it from 50cm clearly if room treatment is successful? Yes.
If you set up your speakers and your listening position in the center position of your room you are still going to hear 40hz -3db less, after "theoretically" perfect treatment.

I've attached the room simulator with setting up in the middle of the room and speakers 50cm away and theoretically "perfect treatment".
In this situation 42.9hz is -3db from 85.77hz which would usually be a big peak.

Now remember its theoretically perfect treatment which in most cases is almost impossible.
Well I can hear 40hz on a pair of headphones because there is no room factor. When loudspeakers interact with air and room, it all becomes a different story I believe.

Thank you for the room simulator example. Although I want to reiterate that the center of the room is definitely not where I want to sit I would be more than happy to hear 42.9 hz at my current setup, which you can see from the imgur links above.

You see this is where my problem starts. I am willing to compromise everything for a better mixing and listening environment, sleep in a smaller and cramped room, move the cabinet to the balcony where its kinda freezing during winter, "on the condition" that I can sit 100-150 cm away from my speakers at the front of my room. If after all these changes, panels, visits to construction markets, and I realize that the center of the room is still the "best" place to be positioned due to the nature of my room, I might as well put these speakers aside and continue mixing with Beyerdynamics DT 770 Pros. I guess this is the burden an audiophile needs to carry until they reach the desired outcome. Sorry for the rant, I knew buying speaker alone will not suffice, but I have never imagined how thorough and precise this process would turn out to be. I guess I need to finish what I have started and not let despair get in the way :D
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