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A compromise for independent basement room???
Old 14th September 2020
  #31
The build is coming along pretty well now. Ceiling is in place : R-19 between all joists, RSIC-1, furring channel, 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue. The room consists of two adjacent concrete block walls and two framed walls opposite the block walls. I want to use all these theater insulation panels to my best advantage and agree that using what I need to build floor to ceiling bass traps in all 4 corners first is a good start. Are there any links to designs for corner traps built from material similar to what I have?

Then, I think my next focus should be hanging several whole or partial theater black panels from the ceiling. Seems I should cover a pretty good percentage of the ceiling. Thinking perhaps two full sheets running lengthwise in the center across the 21.5' length of the room. Then outside of the full sheets, half sheets in a similar orientation. That'd be covering 37% of the ceiling?

If I use what I've described for the purposes above, I'll still have a minimum of 4-6 sheets for strategic placement around the room. Originally, I was thinking of splitting the sheets into 2' x 8' panels and placing them around all walls of the room.

I have no room analysis software or measurement mics (other than DBX measurement mics that come with Driveracks). This room is intended as a pleasant sounding room for jams as well as a decent recording environment, and to minimize sound levels in the house above. The suggestions and advice I've been getting from you guys is great and much appreciated. Thank You!
Old 14th September 2020
  #32
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
You can download REW for free, and use your microphone from the driverack.
Old 14th September 2020
  #33
double post deleted.

Last edited by Burstwurst; 14th September 2020 at 12:37 AM.. Reason: double post deleted.
Old 14th September 2020
  #34
For my 2 framed walls, I was planning to use 2 strips of 3/8" backer rod on both the top and bottom plates. Will be sizing the wall heights for compression of the backer rods to 1/4" (or whatever is optimum based upon results of experimentation). Building (4' or 8') wall sections on the floor and tipping them up skinned with drywall on the outside because of the obstruction of the I-beam running down the length of the house. Then will use acoustic sealant at the top and bottom. There is no moisture issue where the framed walls will be.
Old 14th September 2020
  #35
Kyle, Thanks for pointing me to the REW SW. Seems with my very regular room dimensions, the process may be fairly straightforward. After I make traps and "clouds", I wonder if I might just make 2'x8' panels of my 2" mat'l and then, after getting some gear in place, place them (the panels) based on what REW informs me? I also have a dozen 4'x8' 4' 703 panels from my previous control room, and a 4'x4' skyline panel, but wasn't expecting to need them,
Old 14th September 2020
  #36
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burstwurst View Post
For my 2 framed walls, I was planning to use 2 strips of 3/8" backer rod on both the top and bottom plates. Will be sizing the wall heights for compression of the backer rods to 1/4" (or whatever is optimum based upon results of experimentation). Building (4' or 8') wall sections on the floor and tipping them up skinned with drywall on the outside because of the obstruction of the I-beam running down the length of the house. Then will use acoustic sealant at the top and bottom. There is no moisture issue where the framed walls will be.
Why are you using backer rod on the top/bottom plates? I've never seen this in any studio design. It seem erroneous to me.

Pre hanging the drywall is also a concern, and not clear to me that it's necessary.

Non hardening 100% Silicone, and butyl caulking do the same job as acoustical sealant for less money, there is no reason to use acoustical sealant unless its cheaper. It doesn't do the job any better.

REW has an RTA function you can use to find the listener and speaker positions, then you can treat and tweak position from there.

Boggy on speaker location

Speaker placement methods


How to find the listen position

Finding the sweet spot in the room
Old 14th September 2020
  #37
There's an I-beam running the length of the house. The 21.5' framed wall is only an inch inside of that beam and I wouldn't be able to fasten the outside drywall to the framing at the top. Hence my plan to build wall sections on the floor with outer drywall and tilt them up. My thinking was that the backer rod on the top and bottom plates would create a friction fit (due to the compressed rod (when the section was in it's final position) and it would create a nice pocket for the acoustic sealant (OSI-175) which I already have (12 tubes) on hand. Because of the I-beam, it's not a typical wall construction. But, if there are functional issues created by this approach, I'll want to re-think.
Old 14th September 2020
  #38
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burstwurst View Post
There's an I-beam running the length of the house. The 21.5' framed wall is only an inch inside of that beam and I wouldn't be able to fasten the outside drywall to the framing at the top. Hence my plan to build wall sections on the floor with outer drywall and tilt them up. My thinking was that the backer rod on the top and bottom plates would create a friction fit (due to the compressed rod (when the section was in it's final position) and it would create a nice pocket for the acoustic sealant (OSI-175) which I already have (12 tubes) on hand. Because of the I-beam, it's not a typical wall construction. But, if there are functional issues created by this approach, I'll want to re-think.
Why not just build the wall underneath the beam, attached to a peice of channel? Or attach the wall directly to the beam and use channel for your decoupling on that wall.

If your going to do it the way you described, use mineral wool at 25% compression, not backer rod. The wall needs to be attached at the top and bottom to some thing secure.

The way you describe would make it incredibly difficult to seal the top perimeter of the drywall.
Old 15th September 2020
  #39
I have six corner membrane bass traps (4 are 2' tall and 2 are 4' tall) from my previous place. If I were to place these in my four corners and then face them with my OC theater panels, would that affect the performance of the membrane traps in a good or bad way?

Last edited by Burstwurst; 20th September 2020 at 10:48 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
........If your going to do it the way you described, use mineral wool at 25% compression, not backer rod.....
Kyle, can you point me to a mineral wool product that would be suitable. I'm striking out in my searches.

Thanks,
Bill
Old 4 weeks ago
  #41
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burstwurst View Post
Kyle, can you point me to a mineral wool product that would be suitable. I'm striking out in my searches.

Thanks,
Bill
If i recall correctly from build it like the pros, Rod cites "Thermafiber" in his drawings, at the location between header and existing ceiling. Pg 259 has an example.

You would need an isolation bracket(s) to secure the walls upper side to something secure.

Depending on exactly where/how your assembling things, you may be able to just attach to some clips/channel. The mineral wool and iso brackets are for where fire stops are required.

Its tough to reccomend precisely without drawings/photos or an idea of the overall plan.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #42
Yes, difficult to convey details without drawings, etc. I've attempted to attach a simple drawing of the wall/ceiling interface. The top shows what is currently in place and the bottom shows my proposed wall/ceiling interface. Red dots are where I expect to be putting sealant.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf wall-ceil interface0001.pdf (308.3 KB, 10 views)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
.........Its tough to recommend precisely without drawings/photos or an idea of the overall plan.
True Dat! hopefully the drawing and this pic offers some clarification.

Thanks
Bill
Attached Thumbnails
A compromise for independent basement room???-ceil-wall.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #44
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burstwurst View Post
Yes, difficult to convey details without drawings, etc. I've attempted to attach a simple drawing of the wall/ceiling interface. The top shows what is currently in place and the bottom shows my proposed wall/ceiling interface. Red dots are where I expect to be putting sealant.
Ok, the drawing makes things clear. The seal at the juction looks ok to me assuming backer rod and non hardening caulking is used.

The issue is the space between the header and the ceiling. That gap will bleed sound excessively.

Typically the wall frame is put up before drywall is installed on the ceiling. You would attach the wall directly to a peice of channel, with the drywall butting up against it.

The wall needs to be fastened at the top by some means.

I would look to build the wall frame up to the ceiling, eliminating the gap. Fitting flush but not so tight as to mess with the springiness of the clips.

You could simply cut away the edge of the drywall, and attach the header to a new piece of channel, hanging from the ceiling.

Or you could mount some iso mounts to the beam, and attach the wall to that. Essentially and iso "L" bracket. Something along the lines of this

https://pac-intl.com/products.html#catProducts

This way your wall is structurally secure, and sealed.

Pg 263 shows a wall attached to a beam via iso clips and some plywood. Im not sure its cool to post the images publicly. Let me know if you dont have the book.

You could possibly fit a peice of wood above the drywall, and use that to screw the header in.

That all said, since your design isn't one found in any of the books, or manufacturer drawings ive seen, i wouldn't say with full confidence that any of these are ideal, though removing the drywall edge and attaching to a new channel on the ceiling is closest to "proper".

I will also say inside out builds are not something ive done, or studied to any great degree.

Excuse me if ive asked already, but why not just put the drywall on the other side of the wall? Or build the wall underneath the beam and box out the beam?

We are only talking a couple inches either way, and then have an assembly much, much closer to tried and tested methods.

Also you'd need 2x layers of drywall on the wall to match the ceiling, not one. (GG too if used on the ceiling)

You could trim a bit off the ceiling edge. Put another channel/clip run between beam and ceiling drywall, and just run the wall up to that. Then just put the drywall studio side. The ceiling drywall will butt against the header, can be sealed, and drywall on the wall, sealed to the ceiling.

To me thats way easier, and way better sonically.

I drew an insanely crude drawing which i hope is legible. One thing i miss about my iPhone is the markup app i had.
Attached Thumbnails
A compromise for independent basement room???-screenshot_2020-09-28-16-45-39.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #45
Kyle, the time you've put into your replies to my questions and the great advice I've received is very much appreciated.

Thanks,
Bill

update on water issue : had a pretty good rain a couple days ago. Block wall treatment I've done is so far keeping all water out.

Last edited by Burstwurst; 4 weeks ago at 11:25 AM..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #46
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burstwurst View Post
Kyle, the time you've put into your replies to my questions and the great advice I've received is very much appreciated.

Thanks,
Bill

update on water issue : had a pretty good rain a couple days ago. Block wall treatment I've done is so far keeping all water out.
Glad to assist, and happy to hear about the dry basement.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #47
The fellow who I got the 2" Theater black insulation from threw in 7 sheets of this "Celotex" as a bonus (pic attached). Would this stuff be beneficial in my 2 framed walls, along with traditional pink stuff?

BTW, I really like how this forum allows direct uploading of pics. Very helpful!

edit : Just to avoid becoming derailed over a non-pertinent discussion, this is modern "celotex", manufactured in 2019, contains no asbestos. Saw in another thread about celotex where the discussion was of a material with holes (visually compared to pegboard). This material I have is 1/2" thick 4'x8' sheets (with NO holes) and was salvaged from the excess materials from a 2019 movie theater build. The 7 sheets I have would be just barely shy of what I need to insert it between the studs of both of my framed walls. Would like to use it somewhere, even if it adds only a slight performance enhancement. Also, I am unconcerned with it's fire rating, so let's avoid that discussion as well.

Given the description of it's past uses, backed by tons of fluffy insulation, I'd also wondered if I might ought consider treating the entire 16' framed wall my mixing position faces in this fashion? Doing so would free up several sheets of the theater black for other areas of the room. My room setup will have the back line along the 16' block wall and mixing position facing the framed 16' wall opposite that block wall.
Attached Thumbnails
A compromise for independent basement room???-celotex.jpg  

Last edited by Burstwurst; 3 weeks ago at 04:02 PM.. Reason: clarification
Old 3 weeks ago
  #48
Sealant and paint?

Ceiling is finished and ready for paint and sealant at the wall/ceiling joint. Waiting until a little more backer rod arrives (larger diameter for a couple areas where I had more than the planned gap). Anyway, for better or worse, I have OSI SC175 already on hand. I've heard it's difficult to work with. I've also yet to prime and paint the ceiling. The SC175 is paintable. Question is, given how difficult/messy I've heard this stuff is to work with, can anyone (with experience with OSI SC175) recommend which I should do first, paint or caulk?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
If i recall correctly from build it like the pros, Rod cites "Thermafiber" in his drawings, at the location between header and existing ceiling. Pg 259 has an example..............
I've now heard enough references to this book to convince me I need a copy, arriving Thursday. Got a few older Everest books on the subject that have also been helpful. Thanks for pointing it out.

Kyle, I've shamelessly quote you here, hoping you get a notification, as I'm especially interested in your recommendation on where I can best utilize the Celotex material I've also come upon. Thx

Last edited by Burstwurst; 3 weeks ago at 01:26 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #50
Having a little trouble finding "Thermafiber" in a useful shape/size. I wonder if these 3M Firestop strips might be effective for interfacing my walls to both the floor and ceiling prior to caulking?
https://www.grainger.com/product/1XR...GRDHM:20511231

I wonder if another option might be the 2" Theater board I already have. My ceiling is a few inches under a full 8', so I'll have lots of 4' long scrap. If this stuff could be cut on a table saw (no idea yet if it can) I could cut, say, 4' long 1/2" thick and 2" wide strips to place on my top and bottom wall plates and then design my wall heights for proper compression of the strips, leaving a 1/4' to 3/8" gap for caulk.

Last edited by Burstwurst; 3 weeks ago at 02:28 PM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #51
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burstwurst View Post
I've now heard enough references to this book to convince me I need a copy, arriving Thursday. Got a few older Everest books on the subject that have also been helpful. Thanks for pointing it out.

Kyle, I've shamelessly quote you here, hoping you get a notification, as I'm especially interested in your recommendation on where I can best utilize the Celotex material I've also come upon. Thx
Hey there sorry for the late reply ive been preoccupied.

As far as the celotex, im not familiar with it, so i don't have any opinion on it, other than i would not put anything in the space between the walls, and ive not seem celotex reccomended by any of the full time acousticians on forums, or in any books.

It might be useful for something but im not sure what, i will look into what it is further if i can.

You caulk before paint. Just use a paintable 100% silicone caulking for the final layer of drywall, if needed or some other acoustically accepted paintable caulking. you should be mudding and taping the seems of each drywall layer so the caulking isn't usually exposed.

Afaik regular floppy rockwool doesn't effectively transmit vibration and would be acceptable to pack into voids, again at 25% compression to avoid bridging.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
Hey there sorry for the late reply ive been preoccupied..................
Kyle, I appreciate your contributions to this thread! I've created a new thread "Burstwurst build summary (re-focused)" in an effort to make it clear what my goals are and what materials I already have on hand, . I sure hope to see you there. Your recommendation of "Build it Like the Pros" has given me renewed interest and focus.... and, I'd lost track of my old Everest books in my recent move anyway.
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