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Planning new studio step by step
Old 21st February 2020
  #1
Planning new studio step by step

Hi all,

Recently posted a thread about how to go about designing/building new studio. I only got 1 response, perhaps the post itself wasnโ€™t inclined towards responses through being too vague. So, Iโ€™m going to post each step I think that needs to happen, so I can gather information in steps!

We just moved into new house, and I want to convert an extension into the studio. As this extension has a glass roof, the first thing that needs to be done is replace it.

As you can see from photo, the glass is currently being held up by wooden joists running the width of the room. These are in turn mounted on top of two joists running the length of the room, bolted directly onto te brick walls either side.

For now, I just want to make the roof โ€˜properโ€™ (ie I will do the soundproofing later), but depending on how I intend on soundproofing will influence this initial build stage of roofing.

Briefly, the room will be used for composing/mixing/tracking instruments (ac guitar, violin, etc). I want it to be isolated so that I can play ac guitar at 3 am, and the sound not escape, and similarly during the day I donโ€™t want external sounds (cars, dog barks etc) coming in.

What materials/method should I look into doing for the outer shell of the roof? Are the wooden joists that are there now suitable/up to the task of the outer shell?

Like I said, once I have this planned, I will post again about the next stages.

Cheers
Attached Thumbnails
Planning new studio step by step-e103a683-85d6-4ff4-aecf-019a4fbc596d.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-7e3fddcf-a3c2-480a-b498-f4b68d8dab38.jpg  
Old 22nd February 2020
  #2
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Thr first step is to take sound meter readings of the sounds that are the background, and how loud your sources are. This gives us a number.

Then you can select the wall/ceiling assembly that matches that number.

Your going to likely need to add mass to the existing structure. If you cant add it to the outside, its going to go in between the studs.

The amount of mass necessary for the existing walls will be the minimum required for the ceiling. This is what determines the structural requirements for the new ceiling. Since your replacing the ceiling you can add mass (like osb) to the outside, then put the roofing.

If your doing risc 1 clips, or resillient channel then you need to account for the additional load on the ceiling these impart. If doing an independently framed ceiling then there's no additional load.

Either way your ceiling needs to have ventilation. Rod Gervias describes a product in his book, which allows for the roof to be ventilated, without creating a 3 leaf system. This product sounds perfect for you since your replacing the roof anyway. Otherwise youll need to plan on the additional mass and load bearing since a 3 leaf system will be unavoidable, and mass is the workaround.

So it is imperative you put a number to your isolation requirements, otherwise nobody can give a valid answer. I mix at like 70db, i used to assist a guy who mixed at like 105db. A number is absolutely necessary. That is step 1.

In the meantime you can start filling in cracks and preparing the garage for the added mass, or whatever the next step is. You can prep the shell while your planning your drawings amd materials for the design.

You've got to define needs for:

Isolation
Hvac
Electrical
Existing structure (construction details, obstacles)

These are the bare minimum needed to start working on the overall plan. An "as built drawing" will show the existing construction including any columns, wiring, pipes, doors, ect. An as is drawing will be useful to define dimensions, materials, and workarounds.

Once these 4 things are defined. Layouts and assemblies can be planned, and budgeted for.
Old 24th February 2020
  #3
This is an extremely helpful post, thank you.

In terms of exact numbers, its hard to define as I don't currently work with speakers (various reasons). However, I can define reasonable details relating to sound coming in/out:

1) The back of the 'studio', which is currently a set of sliding glass doors, backs onto a very mini garden. The depth of this garden is perhaps 3-4 meters, the other side of which is a road. It is a quiet road in a closed urbanisation, so cars don't pass fast, but they pass, occasionally popping horns etc. There is also an Alsatian dog next door, who seems to always be on the roof of the house barking, kind of loud. These are the main external sources of sound leaking in to the room.

In terms of sound inside, I will be using my Genelec 8020As, at least for now, once I have the right voltage running in here. I will be using the space to record vocals, acoustic instruments such as guitar, violin, cello, and other percussion.

I feel that right now it is somewhat unnecessary to do exact numbers, due to the room itself being very 'unsealed' in its current state. The roof is glass, so even a normal rain shower sounds wildly loud. Similarly, the sliding glass doors on the back of the room, and lack of door between this room and the house means a lot of noise comes in, which may not if the room was actually a normally constructed 'room'.

Would you agree that I should begin by making the room 'ready' in these regards, before attempting to plan the sound insulation:

1) fix the roof so it is a normal roof
2) replace the rear sliding doors with a proper wall
3) put a door between the room and the house.

At this point, I will at least be achieving the normal kind of isolation a normal room would achieve. From there, I can take measurements to determine what amount of isolation needs to take place inside? I want it to be isolated, but similarly on a budget, so dont want to go overboard with unnecessary levels of isolation based on inaccurate readings at the start, given the rooms current unsuitable state?

Thanks!
Old 25th February 2020
  #4
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drunmersteve View Post
This is an extremely helpful post, thank you.

In terms of exact numbers, its hard to define as I don't currently work with speakers (various reasons). However, I can define reasonable details relating to sound coming in/out:

1) The back of the 'studio', which is currently a set of sliding glass doors, backs onto a very mini garden. The depth of this garden is perhaps 3-4 meters, the other side of which is a road. It is a quiet road in a closed urbanisation, so cars don't pass fast, but they pass, occasionally popping horns etc. There is also an Alsatian dog next door, who seems to always be on the roof of the house barking, kind of loud. These are the main external sources of sound leaking in to the room.

In terms of sound inside, I will be using my Genelec 8020As, at least for now, once I have the right voltage running in here. I will be using the space to record vocals, acoustic instruments such as guitar, violin, cello, and other percussion.

I feel that right now it is somewhat unnecessary to do exact numbers, due to the room itself being very 'unsealed' in its current state. The roof is glass, so even a normal rain shower sounds wildly loud. Similarly, the sliding glass doors on the back of the room, and lack of door between this room and the house means a lot of noise comes in, which may not if the room was actually a normally constructed 'room'.

Would you agree that I should begin by making the room 'ready' in these regards, before attempting to plan the sound insulation:

1) fix the roof so it is a normal roof
2) replace the rear sliding doors with a proper wall
3) put a door between the room and the house.

At this point, I will at least be achieving the normal kind of isolation a normal room would achieve. From there, I can take measurements to determine what amount of isolation needs to take place inside? I want it to be isolated, but similarly on a budget, so dont want to go overboard with unnecessary levels of isolation based on inaccurate readings at the start, given the rooms current unsuitable state?

Thanks!
You can take some readings outside around the property to get a feel for ambient noise levels. Including that dog!! And without the dog.

You can also take some readings of your instruments while playing.

These two readings will determine how much isolation you need in either direction.

A quick reading from inside the garage will show how much isolation you have currently.

Your speakers can be assumed to be 85-95db with occasional full blast volume. This would be a typical monitoring environment.

It is imperative you do some tests. It shouldn't take longer than 1/2 hour. You can get an app for your phone or a cheap db meter. Phone apps may not be super accurate, ive seen them off by 10db, but its better than flying blind. A spectral meter on the app is useful to show db levels of things like truck rumbles or the full range of an acoustic guitar.

Percussion could be a shaker (easy to isolate) or a djembe which is both louder and full range. Im trying to illustrate its important to know what db levels and at what frequencies. Otherwise there is no way to really know what you need. This runs the risk of overkill or underkill in your isolation, both of which are costly.

I would not do anything to the roof until the entire studio is planned and budgeted. For testing you can block the door connecting house and garage with a sheet of plywood or drywall. You may want the sliding doors to stay, its possible to just make doors in the same location on your iso wall, so you have access to the outside. Its also useful to have them for loading stuff in and out of the studio. If you absolutely don't want them, then you can remove them and fill the opening with a wall proper.

Your isolation requirements need to be specific. Your whole entire design is based around the isolation requirements. When you pick out shoes or pants, you first must know your size.

You also need the as built drawing as i described. Its impossible to reccomend things without knowing existing obstacles.

In the meantime you can inspect the structure for gaps, holes, and other airleaks, and start sealing up any of the existing structure that is not being removed.
Old 19th March 2020
  #5
Sorry for the delayed reply, I have read and understand where you are coming from. It's been a busy few weeks, so I will be measuring the studios dimensions, taking photos, taking dB readings, and re-posting in the coming days. I really appreciate your input, thank you.

Meanwhile, I hope everyone that reads this is staying safe from COVID19. Take care everyone.
Old 29th March 2020
  #6
OK, I figured now was as good a time as any to post my findings, as there might be a few more people sitting at home with not much to do but glide through the forums..!

I've taken photos, taken measurements and drawn (pretty bad) plans of the space, and taken some sound level readings. I'll give a brief overview of current situation:

1) Glass roof, supported by wooden joists and supports, at a slight angle.
2) Two long walls are old external walls (ie this space used to be a garden). One wall (RHS) is the once exterior wall of my house, (other side of which is living room). The other long wall (LHS) is the boundary between my house and neighbour (other side of wall is an open space where neighbour parks his car).
3) Other side of the short wall (ie behind where the machine currently is) is another room of my house (the 'maids' quarters, where my little dog sleeps, he doesn't bark). The final wall of studio (ie behind the working position) is sliding glass doors, out into my garden.
4) Entrance into room has no door.
5) The room is far from sealed - at the lower end of the sloping roof, there are gaps between the glass ceiling and the sliding doors below/the joists that support the roof.
4) There are two electrical points, both of which tap off from the socket inside the living room (like daisy-chained but within the walls).

To summarise, this room is basically a pergola between two previous external walls (ie what used to be garden), with an opening into the house, and sliding glass doors at the open end, which makes it all internal. It also leaks water (tiny drips down the side of the wall where the glass roof meets the exterior wall of my house, just above the opening/doorway to the room. Thankfully no way near the electrical points. I had someone come 'fix' it but they made it worse, and now we're in lockdown so... gonna have to wait!)

Three of the attachments are my rough plans of the room as is, w/ dimensions. I've calculated it to be roughly 44 cubic metres (1553 cubic foot). The two long walls are not parallel, and the ceiling is on an ever so slight incline.

dB readings are as follows:

Average of 52 dBA (when no internal/external noise happening)
Peak of 59.7 dBA. (I cant remember if this was the German Shepherd barking, or a car driving past).

I took reading outside, which slightly increased these values, but really being inside as almost like being outside, in terms of level of noice. Given the lack of actual sealing in the room, and the materials used, being inside does little to reduce the noise leaking in.

I have actually uploaded a video, which demonstrates two things - the leak during very heavy rainfall, and the noise during the heavy rainfall! Didn't take a reading, but I think you'll hear it loud enough. Im not worried about the leak - its a big problem, but an easy fix as I know the source of the problem, and ultimately the roof will be changed, so whatever I do to keep things dry will ultimately be temporary. But the noise... it rains frequently over here, and when it rains, it rains!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ji9lwqnjni...36.40.mov?dl=0

So as described before, really my biggest priority is tp make the room structurally sound, ie changing the roof for something proper. This will help certainly with the noise of the rain, but may also reduce some of the external noise although I doubt much given the glass doors). Therefore, at the same time I want to remove the glass doors, and in their place put a wall. Which leads me to the next question...

I want a good singing booth. I realise many may suggest just singing in the control room, but I want the booth to double function as a mini practice space for my wife (vocalist). The idea is that she can go in the vocal 'room', sing and practice in a comfortable space, whilst I work, and not disturb each other. We've talked about making the booth inside the room we already have, but two problems exist: 1) it would ultimately be kind of small and uncomfortable for her to practice in for any length of time, and 2) if we were to make it bigger, it would encroach on the studio space, which will maybe in the long distant future have my drum kit over form the UK (maybe!) So, we had the idea to extend out into the garden, and build a vocal room there. Hopefully from one of my plans where I've included more of the garden, along with the night-time photo (sorry) of the garden with lines drawn over it demonstrating my idea, you can see my intention.

This would involve removing the current sliding doors of the 'studio', replacing with a wall, and then over to the right side of this new wall, add a door to enter into the booth. We would then have to build a new external wall for the booth, as the other 3 walls would now exist. I know many studios have the kind of small vocal booths you typically see - in terms of comfort, I would be worried she would just get suffocated and frustrated after any length of time. But, I've also heard that actually having a slight bigger space to create a vocal 'room' can help the vocals sound bigger. With use of sound absorption and properly placed diffusers, a bigger vocal booth can actually help open up the sound that the mic captures (I heard this from Dennis Foley of 'Acoustic Fields' on Youtube, who I know has some questionable theories, but this kind of made sense - please tell me if I'm wrong!)

Once these three things are done (ie proper roof on, glass doors replaced by wall, booth extension out into garden with door connecting through new wall into studio), I would be close to an enclosed space. The doors may have to come when I start constructing the interior insulation (or would they?) Its a pretty complex process as I'm not entirely sure the best order to do things.

Thank you for reading, please see my attachments for a slightly more visual explanation. Stay safe everyone.
Attached Thumbnails
Planning new studio step by step-door-extension.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-extension.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-studio-side-plan.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-studio-3d-plans.jpeg   Planning new studio step by step-img_2497.jpg  

Planning new studio step by step-studio-above-plan.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-studio-planned-extension-plan.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-img_2499.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-img_2498.jpg  
Old 5th April 2020
  #7
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
If you went with something like a 10'x12' vocal booth, if would be reasonably comfortable, and could fit a drum kit or amplifier.

Assuming you monitor at safe levels for long exposure (80-90db) a typical double wall with 2x layers of drywall on each side will bring the sound levels in the booth down to about a quiet conversation at voice frequencies. It won't be completely silent, but quiet enough where a dynamic mic and even condensers generally wont pickup the bleed, even if you hear the bleed with your ears.

A vocal booth at Traid recording has a double wall and independent ceiling, 2x layers of drywall, built on a slab, and drums don't bleed into condenser mics on vocals, despite being about 3' from the booth window, and audible by ear.

Add green glue to the mix and that's about equal to another 2x layers of drywall each side.

A wall/ceiling system like ive described would handle the outside noise coming in, and possibly the inside noise leaking out, depending on how far away the neighbors are.

The new roof should just match the mass of the rest of the exterior shell. You will likely have to beef up the existing structure with mass (like drywall).
Old 15th May 2020
  #8
Getting close to starting - ceiling/roof!

Hi all,

Thank you for your inputs so far. I am almost getting close to being in a position to start the build. As previously stated, first things first is making the space/shell correct. Due to financial reasons, I'm going to do it in phases. First phase is to make the spaces good, by this I mean no soundproofing, that will come in phase 2.

Here are the FOUR main things that have to happen in phase 1, as I see it:

1) New roof in the main room (the roof which is currently glass panes resting on the wooden joists.)

2) A proper door between the room and the main house (currently just an opening).

3) Glass sliding doors to become an exterior wall (this will include a small window into the garden for some natural light, and a door leading to...)

4) Vocal room. This will be the new room built in the garden (utilising two of the walls that currently exist in the garden).

Problems/queries/concerns I have are as follows:

1) New roof. Being Ecuador, the standard materials that may be used may not be the most efficient in terms of sound isolation (nothing derogatory about this comment, but they generally use cheap materials). Is this a problem? As I eventually intend on building a secondary inner ceiling as part of the inner walls structure for the whole room, how much does choice of external roof materials matter? Can I use certain materials in a way that will reduce the mass needed on the inner ceiling?

For example, my builder is suggesting the following:

Lay 'nova losa' (its like interlocking corrugated metal strips - google image search will show you if im not being clear!) on top of the wooden joists that currently exist. On top of this, reinforced concrete of up to around 10cm. The interior is then simply gypsum board on the underside of the joists to cover the metal nova losa. not sure how much sound isolation this would offer, but would it be sufficient with an interior second ceiling, double-leafed with both sides double layers of gypsum/green glue? I hope I'm expressing myself clearly...

Basically, are my builders suggestions for the outer roof a good way to go?

2) A Proper door. Ultimately, I will have a double door system, the second door being part of the new inner walls, but that is part of phase 2. For now, just a single door separating the studio from house. I'm inspecting the frame around the entrance, and By looking at it, I'll have to build a new wooden frame to accommodate the extra space surplus above where the door would be (picture attached)? There is a horizontal piece of wood in the opening space, along with an upright piece on the inside left edge of the opening. which is attached to one of the joists in the studio. I'm not entirely sure what its purpose is, but that will probably have to go to allow space for new doorframe. (I believe they are there for aesthetic purpose/for the sake of the sliding door frame).

3) Glass sliding doors become exterior wall proper - this is a bit simpler. Remove the sliding doors, put a wall. This will probably have to happen BEFORE the roof, as no doubt the roof (or at least the current wooden joists) will sit on top of this wall - ie, the wall will become part of the supporting structure of the roof. Again, the window will ultimately have to be a double-glazed job with isolated inner frame for the inner-wall structure. Again this will will take place in phase 2, but the exterior frame will be built with this in mind.Similarly, there will only be 1 door leading into the vocal room for now. The second door for thew vocal room will be built into the secondary interior walls of the booth in phase 2.

What material for this wall? I assumed brick/concrete to match all of the other currently-existing walls, but then I see this guy on YT building his own studio, and his external wall is just OSB board (https://youtu.be/g3T2kk5Frsk?t=464). Assuming the OSB w/ wooden studs is cheaper, but it will inevitably mean more insulation inside. And granted that this external wall will also be insulated with Rockwool etc, before the secondary interior wall is built. Is this preferable to bricks/concrete external wall?

4) Vocal room. Again, aside from building a room in the garden which, for my builder guy, is not an issue. The question is what materials/what form should the exterior walls/roof be built to best aid the ultimate inner soundproofing. Whatever I decide for the roof of the current studio room to replace the glass, will be simply extended to the new roof of the vocal room. Similarly, however I decide to replace the glass sliding doors, this will be extended for the rest of the vocal room.

Apologies for the length, detail, and more than likely incompetence of this post. I (thankfully) will be doing no building. However, I want to advise my builder the best materials/methods, spoken that the isolation can be as successful as possible!

FYI, the vocal room will serve pretty much solely as a vocal room. I will be bringing my drum kit over to EC eventually, but that will be set up with me here in the control room. My bigger concern is the car noise rumbling on the immediate other side of the vocal booth (and of course the Alsatian barking 24/7 from the house next door.)

Thank you everyone for any input/comments on my plans above. I gotta say its very exciting, but pretty scary at the same time...!
Attached Thumbnails
Planning new studio step by step-img_2963.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-img_2964.jpg  
Old 15th May 2020
  #9
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drunmersteve View Post
Hi all,

Thank you for your inputs so far. I am almost getting close to being in a position to start the build. As previously stated, first things first is making the space/shell correct. Due to financial reasons, I'm going to do it in phases. First phase is to make the spaces good, by this I mean no soundproofing, that will come in phase 2.

Here are the FOUR main things that have to happen in phase 1, as I see it:

1) New roof in the main room (the roof which is currently glass panes resting on the wooden joists.)

2) A proper door between the room and the main house (currently just an opening).

3) Glass sliding doors to become an exterior wall (this will include a small window into the garden for some natural light, and a door leading to...)

4) Vocal room. This will be the new room built in the garden (utilising two of the walls that currently exist in the garden).

Problems/queries/concerns I have are as follows:

1) New roof. Being Ecuador, the standard materials that may be used may not be the most efficient in terms of sound isolation (nothing derogatory about this comment, but they generally use cheap materials). Is this a problem? As I eventually intend on building a secondary inner ceiling as part of the inner walls structure for the whole room, how much does choice of external roof materials matter? Can I use certain materials in a way that will reduce the mass needed on the inner ceiling?

For example, my builder is suggesting the following:

Lay 'nova losa' (its like interlocking corrugated metal strips - google image search will show you if im not being clear!) on top of the wooden joists that currently exist. On top of this, reinforced concrete of up to around 10cm. The interior is then simply gypsum board on the underside of the joists to cover the metal nova losa. not sure how much sound isolation this would offer, but would it be sufficient with an interior second ceiling, double-leafed with both sides double layers of gypsum/green glue? I hope I'm expressing myself clearly...

Basically, are my builders suggestions for the outer roof a good way to go?

2) A Proper door. Ultimately, I will have a double door system, the second door being part of the new inner walls, but that is part of phase 2. For now, just a single door separating the studio from house. I'm inspecting the frame around the entrance, and By looking at it, I'll have to build a new wooden frame to accommodate the extra space surplus above where the door would be (picture attached)? There is a horizontal piece of wood in the opening space, along with an upright piece on the inside left edge of the opening. which is attached to one of the joists in the studio. I'm not entirely sure what its purpose is, but that will probably have to go to allow space for new doorframe. (I believe they are there for aesthetic purpose/for the sake of the sliding door frame).

3) Glass sliding doors become exterior wall proper - this is a bit simpler. Remove the sliding doors, put a wall. This will probably have to happen BEFORE the roof, as no doubt the roof (or at least the current wooden joists) will sit on top of this wall - ie, the wall will become part of the supporting structure of the roof. Again, the window will ultimately have to be a double-glazed job with isolated inner frame for the inner-wall structure. Again this will will take place in phase 2, but the exterior frame will be built with this in mind.Similarly, there will only be 1 door leading into the vocal room for now. The second door for thew vocal room will be built into the secondary interior walls of the booth in phase 2.

What material for this wall? I assumed brick/concrete to match all of the other currently-existing walls, but then I see this guy on YT building his own studio, and his external wall is just OSB board (https://youtu.be/g3T2kk5Frsk?t=464). Assuming the OSB w/ wooden studs is cheaper, but it will inevitably mean more insulation inside. And granted that this external wall will also be insulated with Rockwool etc, before the secondary interior wall is built. Is this preferable to bricks/concrete external wall?

4) Vocal room. Again, aside from building a room in the garden which, for my builder guy, is not an issue. The question is what materials/what form should the exterior walls/roof be built to best aid the ultimate inner soundproofing. Whatever I decide for the roof of the current studio room to replace the glass, will be simply extended to the new roof of the vocal room. Similarly, however I decide to replace the glass sliding doors, this will be extended for the rest of the vocal room.

Apologies for the length, detail, and more than likely incompetence of this post. I (thankfully) will be doing no building. However, I want to advise my builder the best materials/methods, spoken that the isolation can be as successful as possible!

FYI, the vocal room will serve pretty much solely as a vocal room. I will be bringing my drum kit over to EC eventually, but that will be set up with me here in the control room. My bigger concern is the car noise rumbling on the immediate other side of the vocal booth (and of course the Alsatian barking 24/7 from the house next door.)

Thank you everyone for any input/comments on my plans above. I gotta say its very exciting, but pretty scary at the same time...!

1) New roof in the main room (the roof which is currently glass panes resting on the wooden joists.)

2) A proper door between the room and the main house (currently just an opening).

3) Glass sliding doors to become an exterior wall (this will include a small window into the garden for some natural light, and a door leading to...)

4) Vocal room. This will be the new room built in the garden (utilising two of the walls that currently exist in the garden).

Problems/queries/concerns I have are as follows:

1) New roof. Being Ecuador, the standard materials that may be used may not be the most efficient in terms of sound isolation (nothing derogatory about this comment, but they generally use cheap materials). Is this a problem? As I eventually intend on building a secondary inner ceiling as part of the inner walls structure for the whole room, how much does choice of external roof materials matter? Can I use certain materials in a way that will reduce the mass needed on the inner ceiling?

For example, my builder is suggesting the following:

Lay 'nova losa' (its like interlocking corrugated metal strips - google image search will show you if im not being clear!) on top of the wooden joists that currently exist. On top of this, reinforced concrete of up to around 10cm. The interior is then simply gypsum board on the underside of the joists to cover the metal nova losa. not sure how much sound isolation this would offer, but would it be sufficient with an interior second ceiling, double-leafed with both sides double layers of gypsum/green glue? I hope I'm expressing myself clearly...

Basically, are my builders suggestions for the outer roof a good way to go?

----- you ideally want the mass of the roof to match the mass of the rest of outer shell. Ventilation may require special consideration, and possibly a 3 leaf system. Calculate the mass of the potential roof design, and see how it compares to the wall.

In general masonry is a good isolator for sound.

2) A Proper door. Ultimately, I will have a double door system, the second door being part of the new inner walls, but that is part of phase 2. For now, just a single door separating the studio from house. I'm inspecting the frame around the entrance, and By looking at it, I'll have to build a new wooden frame to accommodate the extra space surplus above where the door would be (picture attached)? There is a horizontal piece of wood in the opening space, along with an upright piece on the inside left edge of the opening. which is attached to one of the joists in the studio. I'm not entirely sure what its purpose is, but that will probably have to go to allow space for new doorframe. (I believe they are there for aesthetic purpose/for the sake of the sliding door frame).

--- your builder should be able to tell you if that wood is structurally integral.

3) Glass sliding doors become exterior wall proper - this is a bit simpler. Remove the sliding doors, put a wall. This will probably have to happen BEFORE the roof, as no doubt the roof (or at least the current wooden joists) will sit on top of this wall - ie, the wall will become part of the supporting structure of the roof. Again, the window will ultimately have to be a double-glazed job with isolated inner frame for the inner-wall structure. Again this will will take place in phase 2, but the exterior frame will be built with this in mind.Similarly, there will only be 1 door leading into the vocal room for now. The second door for thew vocal room will be built into the secondary interior walls of the booth in phase 2.

What material for this wall? I assumed brick/concrete to match all of the other currently-existing walls, but then I see this guy on YT building his own studio, and his external wall is just OSB board (https://youtu.be/g3T2kk5Frsk?t=464). Assuming the OSB w/ wooden studs is cheaper, but it will inevitably mean more insulation inside. And granted that this external wall will also be insulated with Rockwool etc, before the secondary interior wall is built. Is this preferable to bricks/concrete external wall?

--- match the new wall to the mass of the existing ones. If you are adding mass to the existing walls make sure the new wall matches that. You can generally mix and match construction methods as long as the mass is equal. I tend to prefer uniformity since different structure methods can lead to different resonant frequencies despite having the same mass.

The goal of the outer shell is uniform mass distribution, and air sealing.

Be careful with your window design to make sure you are not creating a 3 leaf system or 4 leaf system by using to 2x panes of double glazed, gas filled glass.

4) Vocal room. Again, aside from building a room in the garden which, for my builder guy, is not an issue. The question is what materials/what form should the exterior walls/roof be built to best aid the ultimate inner soundproofing. Whatever I decide for the roof of the current studio room to replace the glass, will be simply extended to the new roof of the vocal room. Similarly, however I decide to replace the glass sliding doors, this will be extended for the rest of the vocal room.

----- the amount of mass depends on the desired amount of isolation in DBs. There's no one answer. Take a look at test assemblies and pick one that does what you need. A reasonable "safe" very general answer would be use the same construction of for the vocal room as the rest of the outer building. This leaves no weak links in the outer assembly.

If the booth and studio are sharing a common wall, this would lead to a 3 leaf wall assembly, and reduce isolation at that area. If the booth has its own 4 outer walls spaced away from the garage you will get better isolation.

Best of luck, congrats on taking your time to plan!
Old 16th May 2020
  #10
Thanks! It's a bit of an overwhelming process, Im having to learn a lot and fast! I'm no slouch when it comes to DIY stuff, but having read the Gervais book, and constantly reading posts here, it seems that the key is in the detail, otherwise it'll render the whole process pretty pointless...

The very first thing that needs to happen is some form of door. When I inevitably remove the glass sliding doors and roof, this will expose the room (and the rest of the house) to the elements, which I don't want. So a door to keep the outside out is probably the first logical thing.

I've tried to hijack another door-related thread, so for fear of double posting, I will just heed your suggestions on the best approach more this primary door. The other thread is here: Soundproof Door

As for the roof, despite the reassurance of my builder, I am somewhat concerned about poring very heavy concrete on these ledgers/joists. Both ledgers and all joists are solid pieces of wood. However, I'm questioning how firm the bolts down the length of the ledger would be when supporting concrete. Similarly, the joists don't appear to actually be connected in any way. There might be a bolt right through the top of the joists through to the ledger, but its hard to see...

For sake of security, might it be a good idea to install some studs running up from the floor to underneath the ledger as additional support, as a security measure in case these bolts are not up to the task?

The new walls will be of brick in that case. It is probably the most flexible way of getting the angles that I am presented with, and the density of the brick will match that of the current walls. (remember I will be building an inner room within these concrete walls, perhaps a 2-leaf system as is deemed in Gervais' book as the best).

I do have a slight (albeit slight) concern with the vocal booth. Due to the way the property is designed, the back wall of the vocal booth is literally on the road (picture attached). It is within a private urbanisation, so the traffic volume isnt massive, nor is it fast. But its very close...

If I achieve a good outer shell, of lets say minimum 10cm thickness masonry, and within the vocal room construct a 2-leaf system inner-room (ie 2x gypsum w/ green glue - insulation - air gap - insulation - 2x gypsum w/ green glue), do you think this would provide enough isolation to keep the car noise out?

I don't want to build this vocal booth out the back, only to find that every car passing by is heard on the microphone...!!

Thanks guys, sorry for multiple points within the post, its so overwhelming for a mere mortal like me!!
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Old 17th May 2020
  #11
Sorry for double post - I've done a slightly neater (albeit pretty basic) sketch up of how i want the end configuration attached.

You'll see the new vocal booth extending into the garden, the double door systems, and where the new double-leaf room within a room structure will be. Any issues about this concept please shout out!

Also, I was able to determine that the joists are in fact attached to the ledgers with a big bolt right through them, which is at least a bit reassuring!
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Old 22nd May 2020
  #12
Sorry again for triple posting...

I have now completed some detailed plans of how the building currently is. Hopefully its a little easier to understand now!
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Old 22nd May 2020
  #13
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drunmersteve View Post
Thanks! It's a bit of an overwhelming process, Im having to learn a lot and fast! I'm no slouch when it comes to DIY stuff, but having read the Gervais book, and constantly reading posts here, it seems that the key is in the detail, otherwise it'll render the whole process pretty pointless...

The very first thing that needs to happen is some form of door. When I inevitably remove the glass sliding doors and roof, this will expose the room (and the rest of the house) to the elements, which I don't want. So a door to keep the outside out is probably the first logical thing.

I've tried to hijack another door-related thread, so for fear of double posting, I will just heed your suggestions on the best approach more this primary door. The other thread is here: Soundproof Door

As for the roof, despite the reassurance of my builder, I am somewhat concerned about poring very heavy concrete on these ledgers/joists. Both ledgers and all joists are solid pieces of wood. However, I'm questioning how firm the bolts down the length of the ledger would be when supporting concrete. Similarly, the joists don't appear to actually be connected in any way. There might be a bolt right through the top of the joists through to the ledger, but its hard to see...

For sake of security, might it be a good idea to install some studs running up from the floor to underneath the ledger as additional support, as a security measure in case these bolts are not up to the task?

The new walls will be of brick in that case. It is probably the most flexible way of getting the angles that I am presented with, and the density of the brick will match that of the current walls. (remember I will be building an inner room within these concrete walls, perhaps a 2-leaf system as is deemed in Gervais' book as the best).

I do have a slight (albeit slight) concern with the vocal booth. Due to the way the property is designed, the back wall of the vocal booth is literally on the road (picture attached). It is within a private urbanisation, so the traffic volume isnt massive, nor is it fast. But its very close...

If I achieve a good outer shell, of lets say minimum 10cm thickness masonry, and within the vocal room construct a 2-leaf system inner-room (ie 2x gypsum w/ green glue - insulation - air gap - insulation - 2x gypsum w/ green glue), do you think this would provide enough isolation to keep the car noise out?

I don't want to build this vocal booth out the back, only to find that every car passing by is heard on the microphone...!!

Thanks guys, sorry for multiple points within the post, its so overwhelming for a mere mortal like me!!
With regards to the roof, a structural engineer needs to verify that it can handle the weight.

As far as the booth goes, its important to note that the masonry wall, the exterior wall, is the outer leaf. So you would build the 2nd/inner leaf with an airgap off the masonry wall, and add mass to the inner leaf.

You do not build a double wall within the masonry walls, this would be a 3 leaf system, and reduce your isolation.

Masonry is a good isolator. With traffic a big consideration is rumble from heavy trucks ect. They can vibrate the ground and mic stand. There is not alot that can be done about it without great cost.

If you measure your traffic noise, you can select the amount of mass needed based on that number.

There are papers called ir-761, and ir-586, which show tests of various wall assemblies. These will help you select the right assembly

Fwiw, a room within a room style booth, on a slab, with 3x drywall on the inner leaf, 2x on the outer, does a good job keeping drums out of vocal mics over at Triad Recording.
Old 22nd May 2020
  #14
Very helpful pointers, thanks Kyle.

I am trying to arrange for a structural engineer to come as soon as it is safe to do so. That way we can move forward with plans. I can have as many ideas as I like on how to reinforce these joists, but in reality I have no idea what would work..!

I am going to start taking some more detailed sound level measurements at the various locations, to decide how to best approach this.

As you can see on my 3D sketches, there is a room behind the studio. The original plan was this was to turn it into a mini kitchenette - so that when clients come over (something that regularly happens), there is an area to make coffee, go to the bathroom etc, without entering the main house. There is already a toilet etc in this room. Thinking vocal booths, this room has the advantage that it isn't facing the main road, it goes onto my driveway, so car noise would be a minimum (and noise in general), as my driveway opens onto an internal cul-de-sac type road, of which we are at the very end, so minimal passing traffic (only when neighbours return home). Secondly, the walls are already built! I would just need to bash a hole from the studio into that room, which was already the plan to link the studio to the kitchenette. (this excludes building the inner wall, which is in my phase 2).

In terms of making a decision of the location of the vocal booth, can you give any other suggestions?! Regarding car rumble, I completely take your point, it was a concern my wife and I already had. The noise that I hear, more than anything, is that of the tyres on the tarmac. Its less of a low-end rumble (trucks don't typically pass all that often, just your average cars), so its less low-end, and more mid-range tyre noise. I'll get some sound level measurements of this too. Does this change anything? Or do your comments apply equally here too...

Still have to figure out the door assembly, this is the first and most important step! Thanks for your continued input and comments.
Old 22nd May 2020
  #15
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Its nice to have a lounge and restroom as part of the studio. They also often make great echo chambers.

Mid range is easier to block in general than sub freqs, so things are in your favour in that regard.

Its important to note that mics and ears don't hear the same way. It's remarkable how much isolation you get even in vocal mics of live recordings. It's been the case in my experience that even when some bleed is audible by ear, it doesn't mean for sure the mic will pick it up. It varies case by case there is a difference between "can't hear it" and "mics don't pick it up".

It really might be worth it for your project to involve a knowledgeable pro to assist you thru the project. Im not sure if Avare is for hire, but someone like him or John H. Brandt, can save you alot of headache and probably money, so in the end you have a product your proud of. GS is a great resource, but its different than the attention you get from good hired help.

Im glad your exploring layouts and possibilities, a good layout is a great start imho.
Old 23rd May 2020
  #16
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avare's Avatar
 

I read your pmail. Trying to keep to (hint,hint) one idea per thread, look at the "superdoor" in Rod Gervais's book.
Old 23rd May 2020
  #17
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Where to approach building the vocal booth - outing the garden using the concrete walls that already exist, or using the room on the other side of the studio.
It is a question of yin and yang. If you go with the concrete walls use 200 mm of absorption on the walls and ceiling.
Old 23rd May 2020
  #18
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Does the frame of the roof need reinforcing before I replace the existing glass roof with something more solid, such as concrete.
That is for a structural engineer.
Old 26th May 2020
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
It is a question of yin and yang. If you go with the concrete walls use 200 mm of absorption on the walls and ceiling.
thanks for the replies avare..

OK understood re. the roof, engineer search begun.

What do you think of the proximity to the road, if I were to build into the garden? As stated its a small road, trucks will obviously occasionally drive by, but its mainly residents cars (tyre noise etc). I've attached a photo from up above - below you can see the wall structure which currently exists, and immediately on the other side the road. The wall looks thick, but it isn't - its a cupboard on the outside, housing something (not sure what, perhaps something like electricity meters).

I'm going to get some dB readings of there as soon as I can and post them up.
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Old 27th May 2020
  #20
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drunmersteve View Post
thanks for the replies avare..

OK understood re. the roof, engineer search begun.

What do you think of the proximity to the road, if I were to build into the garden? As stated its a small road, trucks will obviously occasionally drive by, but its mainly residents cars (tyre noise etc). I've attached a photo from up above - below you can see the wall structure which currently exists, and immediately on the other side the road. The wall looks thick, but it isn't - its a cupboard on the outside, housing something (not sure what, perhaps something like electricity meters).

I'm going to get some dB readings of there as soon as I can and post them up.
I do not understand your question. Kyle answered it. You can build by the road with appropriate isolation.

S I look at your latest drawings the walls appear quite thin. A good design spec is 12" thick for gypsum walls.

Congratulations on using the design software!
Old 6th June 2020
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
I do not understand your question. Kyle answered it. You can build by the road with appropriate isolation.

S I look at your latest drawings the walls appear quite thin. A good design spec is 12" thick for gypsum walls.

Congratulations on using the design software!
Yes thats true, I suppose I was after a second opinion, as Kyle mentioned you were very much in the know for this stuff...! But understood, it is possible.

Thanks for your comments on the plans, however these are actually only an indication of how the room currently is. I am planning on updating this with the plans for sound insulation etc in the coming days. For now, I've done some rough sketches of how to approach the inner walls, as I have some questions. The manner in which I approach the whole inner wall situation will impact how I construct this first door, which I'll try explain below.

I have read through the Super Door in the Gervais book. However, as I plan on a room within a room, inevitably there will be 2 doors, therefore I guess Super door is not so necessary in this case? Similarly, sourcing parts will always be a challenge over here, and the double door assembly looks a little more 'basic' in terms of parts needed. Hopefully I can achieve the same results with a little more ease, unless you disagree? Accepted that the cost may be higher (twice as many doors etc).

The problem I face now is this. Rod Gervais talks about a through jamb, effectively joining the outer and inner walls with the 5/4 lumber. I appreciate why he does this, given the weight of the doors (potentially two doors) hanging off the same set of jambs, so it has to be strong enough to support them. As my 'outer wall' is the already existing masonry wall, I am not sure how to best mount/join the door, and its various components, to/between the walls that I have/will have.

You have both recommended a structural engineer comes and looks how the existing joists will fair with a heavier roof. One solution suggested to me on another forum, was to frame new studs underneath these joists, acting as supporting uprights. That way, the joists have the already-existing bolts right through into the brick wall, and in addition, the new studs underneath for support. I need this checked by an engineer in person, but this is possibly a good solution.

What this means, however, is that the depth of the masonry wall is effectively extended by the width of a stud. I assume to get the 2 leaf design, I would then need a minimum 1" gap away from these studs, and then my second inner-wall stud frame (this design approach is attached below).

This brings up questions as to how I should approach the primary and secondary door assemblies (specifically with regards to the through jamb, and where to mount the doors in relation to the studs/masonry wall etc).

Another idea I had was use the new supporting studs as the frame for the outer leaf. I'm pretty sure this doesn't work, as I am creating a physical join between the two leafs, which will reduce the STC considerably.

The final potential solution is only possible if extra studs aren't required to support the currently existing joists. That way, the new inner wall can be closer to the masonry wall (this approach also attached below).

I understand you guys have recommended a structural engineer for the matter of how to support new roof. That will ultimately be the deciding factor. However if I can do it either way, which way looks best for you guys? If you both feel that the double-stud approach is better, should I be adding mineral wool in between the new supporting studs (ie against the masonry wall)?

If my understanding is correct, the 2-leaf approach with the new supporting studs against the brick wall somewhat mimics the design in Gervais' book which achieves an STC of 63 (2 layers of drywall on the outside edge of each leaf). The difference being that my outer leaf's outside face is a 6 inch masonry wall, and not 2 layers of drywall. I appreciate that this may reduce the STC a bit, but I feel its my only solution.

Once I've decided on a clear forward solution for the walls, I need to work out how the framing/design of the doors (specifically, the through-jamb) has to work, as mounting the primary door on the masonry walls would mean a through-jamb all the way to the inner edge of the walls isn't feasible. I've attached what I feel may work.. I know Gervais states he doesn't preoccupy with separating the two leaves at the door assembly, but it may be necessary in my case?

Thank you both for your time, and sorry for the delay in responding - its taking me some time to work through the solutions in my head!
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Old 6th June 2020
  #22
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Assuming the double door is allowable by code, it is not necessary to do a thru jamb, when using a standard size solid core door(s) with no added mass. The super door can be in excess of 350 lbs, much heavier than a standard solid core door.

The structural engineer will determine how much mass the existing structure can handle. Ideally you want to calculate how much you need, then verify if the existing structure can support it. You will need to know how much mass you need, in order for the structal engineer to devise the proper options for reinforcing the structure.

Otherwise you just max out what the existing structure can handle, and be aware if that will/could be the weak link in isolation.

My concern with a thru jamb would be based on the outer wall being masonry as opposed to wood. I would verify with rod, avare, ect, that this is or isn't an issue. Rod has a story about a broomstick left bridging two masonry walls had a significant effect on the isolation of the assembly. I am not sure if a thru jamb would have a similar effect in a wood/masonry assembly like yours.

Aside from verfying that, i would hold off the door assembly design until the ceiling and wall assembly is fleshed out. Ideally the doors match or exceed the performance of the walls.
Old 7th June 2020
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
Assuming the double door is allowable by code, it is not necessary to do a thru jamb, when using a standard size solid core door(s) with no added mass. The super door can be in excess of 350 lbs, much heavier than a standard solid core door.
Thanks Kyle, thats good to know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
The structural engineer will determine how much mass the existing structure can handle. Ideally you want to calculate how much you need, then verify if the existing structure can support it. You will need to know how much mass you need, in order for the structal engineer to devise the proper options for reinforcing the structure.

Otherwise you just max out what the existing structure can handle, and be aware if that will/could be the weak link in isolation.
Yes understood, this is top of the 'to do' list once it's safe to have people come over to the house (mother in law living with us is very sick so its a delicate situation). My builder here said he would do the ceiling with concrete, and I accept this is what most closely matches the mass of the walls currently. But what if I was to ditch the concrete (obviously very heavy) and go for an approach similar to how Rod details approaching the ceiling of a basement setup? (diagram attached). This would involve the weight of 1-3 layers gypsum, plus whatever I replace the glass with on the outside to keep things watertight, etc. Then the inner ceiling would be supported by the new inner wall frame. This strikes me (I'd imagine) as less weight, but hopefully not too much of a sacrifice on overall performance. I appreciate that mass = absorption, just trying to think of potential alternative solutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
My concern with a thru jamb would be based on the outer wall being masonry as opposed to wood. I would verify with rod, avare, ect, that this is or isn't an issue. Rod has a story about a broomstick left bridging two masonry walls had a significant effect on the isolation of the assembly. I am not sure if a thru jamb would have a similar effect in a wood/masonry assembly like yours.

Aside from verfying that, i would hold off the door assembly design until the ceiling and wall assembly is fleshed out. Ideally the doors match or exceed the performance of the walls.
Firstly yes, the door may be the first element of construction I do, but how I approach that is very much dependent on how I approach everything else, which in turn loops back to influence how I approach the door. Thats why I am fleshing through everything to make sure no problems are encountered later!

Yes I did think that a through jamb might not be so essential given the weight of the door(s) would be less. I suppose my question is how/where the two split jambs
would be best mounted. Id imagine the inner one on the inner wall frame. The outer one, however, just on the masonry? OR between the masonry and the new supporting stud (if required).

I got two extra questions:

1) Regarding the wall structures. New supporting studs or not, I will have to leave some amount of clearance between the masonry wall and the new inner wall due to the protruding joists that support the ceiling joists. On all the diagrams, the outer wall has a layer of mineral wool (to increase mass I assume?). Given my masonry wall is 6" thick, would I need to conclude mineral wool on the inner face of this brick wall? Or would the brick wall by itself be sufficient 'mass' for the outer leaf... ie:

a) brick wall - space - mineral wool - 2 x gypsum

OR

b) brick wall - mineral wool - space - mineral wool - 2x gypsum)

2) I nipped into a hardware store the other day (equivalent of B&Q/Home Depot) just to get the lay of the land regarding doors. They had two solid doors in stock (the same with different finishes), both with particle board. I know Rod's book says the material of a solid core door doesn't matter, but is he referring to the type of wood, or the type of construction? In my mind, particleboard is more porous and perhaps not as good an absorber of sound than, say, MDF, or solid wood. These doors ranged between $72-$88, the frame etc at an additional $68.

Thank you!

PS final question - how can I go about calculating mass of current/proposed structures? Is there an online resource that you could point me to to start working through the math?
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Old 8th June 2020
  #24
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drunmersteve View Post
Thanks Kyle, thats good to know.



Yes understood, this is top of the 'to do' list once it's safe to have people come over to the house (mother in law living with us is very sick so its a delicate situation). My builder here said he would do the ceiling with concrete, and I accept this is what most closely matches the mass of the walls currently. But what if I was to ditch the concrete (obviously very heavy) and go for an approach similar to how Rod details approaching the ceiling of a basement setup? (diagram attached). This would involve the weight of 1-3 layers gypsum, plus whatever I replace the glass with on the outside to keep things watertight, etc. Then the inner ceiling would be supported by the new inner wall frame. This strikes me (I'd imagine) as less weight, but hopefully not too much of a sacrifice on overall performance. I appreciate that mass = absorption, just trying to think of potential alternative solutions.



Firstly yes, the door may be the first element of construction I do, but how I approach that is very much dependent on how I approach everything else, which in turn loops back to influence how I approach the door. Thats why I am fleshing through everything to make sure no problems are encountered later!

Yes I did think that a through jamb might not be so essential given the weight of the door(s) would be less. I suppose my question is how/where the two split jambs
would be best mounted. Id imagine the inner one on the inner wall frame. The outer one, however, just on the masonry? OR between the masonry and the new supporting stud (if required).

I got two extra questions:

1) Regarding the wall structures. New supporting studs or not, I will have to leave some amount of clearance between the masonry wall and the new inner wall due to the protruding joists that support the ceiling joists. On all the diagrams, the outer wall has a layer of mineral wool (to increase mass I assume?). Given my masonry wall is 6" thick, would I need to conclude mineral wool on the inner face of this brick wall? Or would the brick wall by itself be sufficient 'mass' for the outer leaf... ie:

a) brick wall - space - mineral wool - 2 x gypsum

OR

b) brick wall - mineral wool - space - mineral wool - 2x gypsum)

2) I nipped into a hardware store the other day (equivalent of B&Q/Home Depot) just to get the lay of the land regarding doors. They had two solid doors in stock (the same with different finishes), both with particle board. I know Rod's book says the material of a solid core door doesn't matter, but is he referring to the type of wood, or the type of construction? In my mind, particleboard is more porous and perhaps not as good an absorber of sound than, say, MDF, or solid wood. These doors ranged between $72-$88, the frame etc at an additional $68.

Thank you!

PS final question - how can I go about calculating mass of current/proposed structures? Is there an online resource that you could point me to to start working through the math?
Assuming the concrete outer shell is not enough isolation by itself, You would need to build a ceiling like the one pictured in the book, that rests on your interior walls. This gives you maximum isolation- fully decoupled frame, no additional weight on the existing ceiling allowing allows for maximum mass there if necessary, and the new inner frame can carry as much mass as spec allows/needs.

Other options are shown in the book, but have the compromise of load bearing.

So you would need both, concrete on outer shell, new inner decoupled ceiling with drywall. How massive the outer shell is depends on how much isolation you require. In an ideal world it would be mass as the outer walls are.

--

You may be better off getting a low cost pre hung door, or making one out of scrap wood until the studio is fully planned. The aim would be to have the outer door be massive as the outer wall. Inner door massive as the inner wall. Each door would be mounted its associated leaf, outer door to masonry, inner to inner shell frame. Or you would use a thru jamb. What you use depends on how massive the doors end up. You've got to decide on the outer door, which is easier since the outer shell exists already. So you know you've got to meet or exceed the mass of the wall with the door. (Things can get a bit more complex than just matching mass if using a single door) but with a double door it seems reasonable enough to mind. The jamb and mounting method would be dictated by the doors mass.


-----

Unless otherwise required by code i would not include rockwool mounted to the masonry. The masonry is the strong link in the isolation assembly here, and i would reserve the space and funds for adding mass (or GG) to the inner assembly. Ive seen testing (irc-ir 586?) Where insulation between two masonry walls has a positive effect worth exploring, but don't recall tests on assembly you describe.

I picture: brickwall-> air space-> insulated wood frame/gypsum.

This is essentially whats pictured in the book where the iso walls are spaced off the basement foundation wall.

----

Rod says the inner material of the door doesn't matter. I have no reason to doubt this.

You should pay attention to the door thickness. All other things equal a thicker door is more massive. However if adding mass it might (Or might not) make sense to use a slightly thinner door to manage space. I've used inch and 3/4, and inch and 3/8, size doors. the door spec should say how much it weighs.

Don't forget the door closure assembly, and proper size hinges. And also watch out for pre made holes and hinge routings in the door, you may not need or want these.

----

As far as calculating the mass goes, there might be a chart in the book, i believe there is for plywood and possibly drywall, not sure if it includes masonry.

For the masonry id just google it. There are many charts for architecture that have this stuff charted and probably some building materials handbooks. Your municipality may have the blue prints and plans for the house which could include the actual spec.

Your contractor would know the Kg per square meter, or pounds per square foot, of the concrete he intends to pour at a given thickness.

The structural engineer can help here too.

I apologize that i do not have links.

Once you have a figure for the mass of the wall and ceiling, you can cross reference that with the test data the irc reports and find one that is most similar to yours. There are also MAM calculators available too. John Brandts site might have one. I was messing with a free one online a few months ago but it was limited to wood frame and 3x gypsum layers.
Old 7th August 2020
  #25
Hi everyone/Kyle,

Been a while since I last posted, I've been doing a load of research and planning, mainly on the door. I plan on getting my first door done and installed, mainly because this isolation fro the outside world will enable me to work one the rest of the studio exposed to the weather, without it being a problem to the rest of the house. I did consider your thought on installing a normal preying door meanwhile, Kyle, but I feel that its an additional expense that would be better spent getting the door done and dusted!

Given I have a fixed opening for the door, I have designed the frame etc accordingly - please see attached the design.

Given the lack of availability of specialist products over here, I have opted to build my own threshold (design pictures attached). I have also searched far and wide for a rubber seal as close to the GM trunk rubber. On the face of it, its not at all similar, but with some re-shaping, I think it will work well enough. (picture attached). Drop seals are a no go, so I'm going to get a slot routed out of the door to fit a semi-mortised drop seal at a later date, whenever I next travel back to the UK/USA.

I have sourced backer rod, and an appropriate acoustic caulk to fill in the edges. I think I have sourced some decent heavy-duty hinges too (youll see from the design I plan on using 7 hinges in total).

The door itself will be two 3/4" slabs attached together with screws/glue (wood glue not green glue). the inner slab will be cut 3/4" smaller on top and side edges to achieve the double-seal.

Having got this far, I now have some construction-orientated questions, hopefully someone can help me out, as I feel these points may be pretty fundamental to the success of the door...

1) The substantial door frame itself (made up of 3x8's) is only on the sides and top, not the bottom. The threshold on the bottom is considerably thinner than these very chunky sides/top. Is this a problem? If so, one solution is to put a bottom plate below the threshold, which is below the current level of the floor. Which in some way leads me to my next question...

2) What should the threshold be mounted upon, and in what way? (this also applies to the edges of the frame uprights). Right now the floor is porcelain tiles, which will eventually all be replaced (but not for now). Obviously I don't want to fit the door on top of this, so I will be cutting a section of the porcelain out to fit in the threshold... so, once I've but the space in the porcelain, how should I approach...

a) fill the new recess with concrete to bring it level with the current floor, and attach the threshold to this?

b) fill with some new concrete to level it, then have an additional piece of lumber BEFORE the threshold on top?

I've done a few sketches to demonstrate what I mean here.

Final part of this question - should I be putting a layer of mass-loaded venial between the threshold and the concrete? How do I achieve an airtight seal otherwise? I've attached a photo of the little section in the opening of the porcelain tiles (the dark ones are the studio the light ones are my living room, which will remain.)

3) I've searched far and wide for fully-fledged designs of the door, but cant find many. From what I've determined, the sides and top edges have a double seal w/ the recessed second door slab. But what about the bottom edge? As you can see in my design, there is a bottom seal that combines with the sides for the outer slab, but there isn't a secondary inner seal along the bottom edge. Is this correct? Kind of feels like not having a bottom seal would make the other 3 seals on the inner slab kind of redundant? What am I missing here?

They are my major concerns for now. Still have to source a locking/latching mechanism suitable for such a thick door. Door closure, whilst Im haven't looked into it properly yet, will be no problem to find, they are widely available here.

Thanks guys!!
Attached Thumbnails
Planning new studio step by step-door-design-mk1.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-door-design-mk1-door.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-threshold-detail-w-jamb.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-studio-vocal-room-extension-door.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-img_3115.jpg  

Planning new studio step by step-img_1925.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-img_5619.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-img_0401.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-img_3806.jpg  
Old 7th August 2020
  #26
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Glad things are progressing!

I hate the gs quoting system so i just put * next to my answers.
-----

Given the lack of availability of specialist products over here, I have opted to build my own threshold (design pictures attached). I have also searched far and wide for a rubber seal as close to the GM trunk rubber. On the face of it, its not at all similar, but with some re-shaping, I think it will work well enough. (picture attached). Drop seals are a no go, so I'm going to get a slot routed out of the door to fit a semi-mortised drop seal at a later date, whenever I next travel back to the UK/USA.

*have you checked http://www.faccafasteners.com/ for the GM trunk rubber? Part of the reason to use it is its durability.

Zero international sells door seals too. They may also stock an acoustic threshold.

Also Rod pictures an "acoustic threshold" in the book, have you seen it? It has sort of a sealed stop built into it.

Make sure the mortised drop seal will work with your threshold. My experience with them is they need to drop to flat surface. I don't recall any angle adjustment.





I have sourced backer rod, and an appropriate acoustic caulk to fill in the edges. I think I have sourced some decent heavy-duty hinges too (youll see from the design I plan on using 7 hinges in total).

*Backer rod in bulk will save you money, ive ordered it from Amazon before. Fwiw.

You can use regular non hardening 100% silicone caulking, or butyl. "Acoustic" caulking is not necessary. I find silicone easier to work with than butyl.





The door itself will be two 3/4" slabs attached together with screws/glue (wood glue not green glue). the inner slab will be cut 3/4" smaller on top and side edges to achieve the double-seal.

*i would not use standard adhesives for this. They can make your isolation worse.

If not using green glue, i would just screw the slabs together. Maybe run a bead of caulking around the perimeter, where the door surfaces meet.



1) The substantial door frame itself (made up of 3x8's) is only on the sides and top, not the bottom. The threshold on the bottom is considerably thinner than these very chunky sides/top. Is this a problem? If so, one solution is to put a bottom plate below the threshold, which is below the current level of the floor. Which in some way leads me to my next question...

*Not quite sure what the question is exactly. But i don't see any obvious issue with the threshold being thinner, this is pretty common.

2) What should the threshold be mounted upon, and in what way? (this also applies to the edges of the frame uprights). Right now the floor is porcelain tiles, which will eventually all be replaced (but not for now). Obviously I don't want to fit the door on top of this, so I will be cutting a section of the porcelain out to fit in the threshold... so, once I've but the space in the porcelain, how should I approach...


a) fill the new recess with concrete to bring it level with the current floor, and attach the threshold to this?

b) fill with some new concrete to level it, then have an additional piece of lumber BEFORE the threshold on top?

*A seems easiest to me. I would use b if the floor was un-level. You can run a bead of caulking on either side of the threshold where it meets the floor.





Final part of this question - should I be putting a layer of mass-loaded venial between the threshold and the concrete? How do I achieve an airtight seal otherwise? I've attached a photo of the little section in the opening of the porcelain tiles (the dark ones are the studio the light ones are my living room, which will remain.)

*caulking shoul be just fine. No need for mlv. Make sure the concrete fill is flat and level.

3) I've searched far and wide for fully-fledged designs of the door, but cant find many. From what I've determined, the sides and top edges have a double seal w/ the recessed second door slab. But what about the bottom edge? As you can see in my design, there is a bottom seal that combines with the sides for the outer slab, but there isn't a secondary inner seal along the bottom edge. Is this correct? Kind of feels like not having a bottom seal would make the other 3 seals on the inner slab kind of redundant? What am I missing here?

*Rods book has all you need. The "acoustic threshold" has a seal, and the drop seal has another. You may consider a drop seal that mounts on the face of the door, if the mortised one doesn't play nice with the threshold. You could put a peice of wood on the bottom face of the door and mount the mortised seal in that, if you can't get a surface mount drop seal. I would only do this as a last resort.

The main purpose of multiple seals is redundency. This is to compensate for imperfections in the seal. In theory if the single seal was perfect, you can't get better than perfectly air tight. In reality the seal won't be perfect, so multiple seals are used, because of the decreased likelyhood of an error in the exact same spot in each seal. This is mainly why its good practice to seal each layer of drywall, instead of just one.

The stepped edges of the multiple seals make it even more difficult for sound.




They are my major concerns for now. Still have to source a locking/latching mechanism suitable for such a thick door. Door closure, whilst Im haven't looked into it properly yet, will be no problem to find, they are widely available here.

You might be interested in a "ball catch" for the door, to minimize holes in the door and jamb, and a surface mount handle. and a deadbolt for the exterior. The lock may require you route out a hole in the inner side of the door so you don't get locked in, and can use the standard screws it comes with.
Old 8th August 2020
  #27
Cheers again Kyle for your continued responses...

Quote:
have you checked http://www.faccafasteners.com/ for the GM trunk rubber? Part of the reason to use it is its durability.

Zero international sells door seals too. They may also stock an acoustic threshold.

Also Rod pictures an "acoustic threshold" in the book, have you seen it? It has sort of a sealed stop built into it.

Make sure the mortised drop seal will work with your threshold. My experience with them is they need to drop to flat surface. I don't recall any angle adjustment.
I hadn't appreciated the durability factor. Ultimately I have no idea how durable my chosen seal will be, its literally just in a drawer with a bunch of others in the store, no idea brand, model, or anything!

If I was in an area of the world where getting stuff shipped was easy (by easy I mean not so crazy expensive), I'd absolutely just order everything. But with shipment for the most basic of items from the states is $150+, and the import fees (on a declared item value of $5) will set me back another $70, shipping items becomes very expensive very quickly!

I've seen the Zero threshold, yes. As I am making seals for the stops, I figured I would incorporate the same approach into the threshold. As for the drop seal in the future, I am making sure that the thresholds flat surface covers the entire width of the door to accommodate drop threshold.

Quote:
*Backer rod in bulk will save you money, ive ordered it from Amazon before. Fwiw.

You can use regular non hardening 100% silicone caulking, or butyl. "Acoustic" caulking is not necessary. I find silicone easier to work with than butyl.
YEs they sell it by 100m roll, so I'll be buying that. No amazon over here, but I've sourced it elsewhere. When I referred to Acoustic caulk, it's not specifically branded that way. It was something recommended to me by Stuart (Soundman 2020 in Chile), so it comes highly recommended!

Quote:
i would not use standard adhesives for this. They can make your isolation worse.

If not using green glue, i would just screw the slabs together. Maybe run a bead of caulking around the perimeter, where the door surfaces meet.
I hadn't appreciated this at all, as many walk-throughs of floor builds have involved glue... but I will look into this more for sure.

Quote:
Not quite sure what the question is exactly. But i don't see any obvious issue with the threshold being thinner, this is pretty common...

A seems easiest to me. I would use b if the floor was un-level. You can run a bead of caulking on either side of the threshold where it meets the floor...

caulking shoul be just fine. No need for mlv. Make sure the concrete fill is flat and level.
I was referring to the main 'frame' (ie not including the threshold) only being sides and top. Wasn't sure if there should also be a piece of wood along the bottom as well for structural integrity or something, with the threshold then sitting on the top.

As for the floor level, I'll probably use self-levelling concrete, bringing it up to the level of the current floor, then add the threshold on top.

And good to know mlv isn't necessary, no idea where I would find that...

Quote:
Rods book has all you need. The "acoustic threshold" has a seal, and the drop seal has another. You may consider a drop seal that mounts on the face of the door, if the mortised one doesn't play nice with the threshold. You could put a peice of wood on the bottom face of the door and mount the mortised seal in that, if you can't get a surface mount drop seal. I would only do this as a last resort.

The main purpose of multiple seals is redundency. This is to compensate for imperfections in the seal. In theory if the single seal was perfect, you can't get better than perfectly air tight. In reality the seal won't be perfect, so multiple seals are used, because of the decreased likelyhood of an error in the exact same spot in each seal. This is mainly why its good practice to seal each layer of drywall, instead of just one.

The stepped edges of the multiple seals make it even more difficult for sound.
All very helpful, thank you for these points. Given how I've designed it currently, I can add in an additional seal along the threshold. I wasn't sure how people approached it, as I imagined multiple staggered seals would increase the overall height of the threshold considerably, becoming a tripping hazard more than anything... and also being exposed to wear over time.

Quote:
You might be interested in a "ball catch" for the door, to minimize holes in the door and jamb, and a surface mount handle. and a deadbolt for the exterior. The lock may require you route out a hole in the inner side of the door so you don't get locked in, and can use the standard screws it comes with.
Yes I've had the exact same suggestion elsewhere. I think I'll do that, it certainly removes the complication of installing a locking mechanism etc...!

Thanks again, I'll continue updating as I progress!
Old 8th August 2020
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drunmersteve View Post
Cheers again Kyle for your continued responses...



I hadn't appreciated the durability factor. Ultimately I have no idea how durable my chosen seal will be, its literally just in a drawer with a bunch of others in the store, no idea brand, model, or anything!

If I was in an area of the world where getting stuff shipped was easy (by easy I mean not so crazy expensive), I'd absolutely just order everything. But with shipment for the most basic of items from the states is $150+, and the import fees (on a declared item value of $5) will set me back another $70, shipping items becomes very expensive very quickly!

I've seen the Zero threshold, yes. As I am making seals for the stops, I figured I would incorporate the same approach into the threshold. As for the drop seal in the future, I am making sure that the thresholds flat surface covers the entire width of the door to accommodate drop threshold.



YEs they sell it by 100m roll, so I'll be buying that. No amazon over here, but I've sourced it elsewhere. When I referred to Acoustic caulk, it's not specifically branded that way. It was something recommended to me by Stuart (Soundman 2020 in Chile), so it comes highly recommended!



I hadn't appreciated this at all, as many walk-throughs of floor builds have involved glue... but I will look into this more for sure.



I was referring to the main 'frame' (ie not including the threshold) only being sides and top. Wasn't sure if there should also be a piece of wood along the bottom as well for structural integrity or something, with the threshold then sitting on the top.

As for the floor level, I'll probably use self-levelling concrete, bringing it up to the level of the current floor, then add the threshold on top.

And good to know mlv isn't necessary, no idea where I would find that...



All very helpful, thank you for these points. Given how I've designed it currently, I can add in an additional seal along the threshold. I wasn't sure how people approached it, as I imagined multiple staggered seals would increase the overall height of the threshold considerably, becoming a tripping hazard more than anything... and also being exposed to wear over time.



Yes I've had the exact same suggestion elsewhere. I think I'll do that, it certainly removes the complication of installing a locking mechanism etc...!

Thanks again, I'll continue updating as I progress!
You will notice the pre made threshold is rounded/beveled to the seal doesn't stick up. You can probably copy this shape or similar idea with a peice of wood, table saw, and router. You might consider using hardwood like oak or something, to aid durability.

Glad you have found a way to avoid the insane shipping fees!
Old 23rd August 2020
  #29
Hello all/Kyle!

Quick update - progress is being made!

I removed a section of tiles in the area that this door is going in to (picture attached). Ultimately, I'll be replacing the entire floor in the studio, so I'm not worried about the messy edge. I just wanted to clear enough space for the concrete section upon which will sit the door frame and threshold.

As you can see, I've poured the concrete this evening! Picture also attached.

I've also bought the first parts of wood that I will need for the main frame (none of the parts for the stops etc just yet). It's a wood they call 'Sandy Rojo', it comes with a natural red grain. Looks very nice, although I will stain it. It was the strongest/densest wood they had, which I figured would be best pick in terms of withstanding the weight of the door, along with going as far as is possible with wood in terms of matching the density of the concrete wall. Again, picture of the wood attached.

As the lumber yard only had big industrial tools (and weren't all that familiar with doing such precise cuts), all of the pieces are a few mm too large on all edges.. So I'm going to get hold of a power planer and shave off the last few mm myself. I have some spare pieces to practice with, and I think its the only way I can ensure I get the exact dimensions I need.

I have a question regarding the assembly of it all. As you can see from the door sketches (attached), there are three main pieces that make up the frame. Then above the header section of the frame, are two extra pieces on edge, filling the gap in the opening (I've not included the extra thin piece, I just combined that between the other pieces). The it comes to the two upright jambs, the header, and these two filler pieces above the header...

What is the best way to attach them all together? My immediate assumption would be a combination of heavy duty screws, and wood glue.

Thanks, and hope you're keeping well.
Attached Thumbnails
Planning new studio step by step-img_7317.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-img_3490.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-img_3110.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-door-design-mk1-door-small.jpg   Planning new studio step by step-studio-vocal-room-extension-door.jpg  

Old 23rd August 2020
  #30
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drunmersteve View Post
Hello all/Kyle!

Quick update - progress is being made!

I removed a section of tiles in the area that this door is going in to (picture attached). Ultimately, I'll be replacing the entire floor in the studio, so I'm not worried about the messy edge. I just wanted to clear enough space for the concrete section upon which will sit the door frame and threshold.

As you can see, I've poured the concrete this evening! Picture also attached.

I've also bought the first parts of wood that I will need for the main frame (none of the parts for the stops etc just yet). It's a wood they call 'Sandy Rojo', it comes with a natural red grain. Looks very nice, although I will stain it. It was the strongest/densest wood they had, which I figured would be best pick in terms of withstanding the weight of the door, along with going as far as is possible with wood in terms of matching the density of the concrete wall. Again, picture of the wood attached.

As the lumber yard only had big industrial tools (and weren't all that familiar with doing such precise cuts), all of the pieces are a few mm too large on all edges.. So I'm going to get hold of a power planer and shave off the last few mm myself. I have some spare pieces to practice with, and I think its the only way I can ensure I get the exact dimensions I need.

I have a question regarding the assembly of it all. As you can see from the door sketches (attached), there are three main pieces that make up the frame. Then above the header section of the frame, are two extra pieces on edge, filling the gap in the opening (I've not included the extra thin piece, I just combined that between the other pieces). The it comes to the two upright jambs, the header, and these two filler pieces above the header...

What is the best way to attach them all together? My immediate assumption would be a combination of heavy duty screws, and wood glue.

Thanks, and hope you're keeping well.
Congrats on keeping things moving. I've just used wood screws to assemble door frames, pre drilling the holes to avoid splitting the wood. Wood glue i am not sure would be helpful or not.

Im unclear on the header design. On this side of the world a typical header is solid framing lumber, with plywood/osb sandwiched in between to achieve desired thickness. This would br part of the wall framing, with the door jamb installed below it. I believe its drawn in one of the window assemblies in the book.

Either way you don't want a header that is hollow.
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