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Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?
Old 16th February 2020
  #1
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Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?

Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?

Hello guys! i'm happy to share the before and after data of my latest build. As this is my very first project other than my studio, i decided to make the data public. I'm an eletrical engineer and have being studying Room acoustics for more than 7 years by now, as well as watching and reading information from exponents of the area, here on gearslutz and youtube.

Please Allow myself to post images and videos of the build at the following posts.

Briefing: My client wanted an listening room where he could achieve an immersive stereo perception. The room was 4mx3mx3.1m and his current equipment is at entry level. Comparing experiences from a much larger room where him and myself listened (and measured) i accepted the challenge to build something better with less space.
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Old 16th February 2020
  #2
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EPA's

I approached the small floor area with the Type of bass traps called EPA's, an VPR type of Basstrap. Making it straddling the corner would take a lot of space from the front wall, so i chose to make 2 Epa's for each bi-corner. since the metal is pretty heavy, and it's desired that they are free standing, i developed this structure, pretty straight foward.
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Old 16th February 2020
  #3
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Cloud

The Cloud also has an metal sheet between Rockwool.
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Old 16th February 2020
  #4
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Almost there

After covering the absorption with oxford tissue, BAD diffusers were added to first reflection points.
Attached Thumbnails
Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-gopr7743_1581642929055_high.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-img_20200213_210515.jpg  
Old 16th February 2020
  #5
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lights on

The last part was adding some led strips to compensate the lack of illumination at the ambient.

The final build looks like this
Attached Thumbnails
Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-gopr7745_1581716032020_high.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-gopr7747_1581716032020_high.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-img_20200214_150220.jpg  
Old 16th February 2020
  #6
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after build Data

in this link there's an EPA efficiency test. Any of the EPAs were made straddling the corner, but the results are very nice either way. There are 8 in this room.

you will find the after build data too.

obs: one of the tower speakers tweeters were faulty so discrepances in the freq response and thd are expected. aware of that issue, i brought my lsr 305 to mitigate those differences.

https://we.tl/t-4MmjXOOnA2
Old 16th February 2020
  #7
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Northward's Avatar
Reality is that the term "acoustic designer' has lost all substance in the last decade.

Like the term "DJ."

Anyone installing pre-made panels and LED Stripes on a wall is now a studio designer, just like plugging a usb stick in a Pioneer DDJ to playback a pre edited mix while turning knobs at random makes you a DJ.
Old 16th February 2020
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
Reality is that the term "acoustic designer' has lost all substance in the last decade.

Like the term "DJ."

Anyone installing pre-made panels and LED Stripes on a wall is now a studio designer, just like plugging a usb stick in a Pioneer DDJ to playback a pre edited mix while turning knobs at random makes you a DJ.
Hey thomas! how you're doing?

i agree with you. I'm familiar with some guys doing things that way in Europe, visually at least. But as you can see, if you have the time, is that after the absorption i dimensioned as well as the BAD panels, everything are working according the EBU tech 3276. This build is in Brasil, where neither those "acoustic Designers" and acoustic product manufactures exists.
Old 16th February 2020
  #9
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Starlight's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exprymer View Post
Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?
Having designed this person's room it seems like you are calling yourself an acoustic designer.

Is your client delighted with their room?

Out of curiosity, two things:
1, Where did the speakers end up? Are they still on the floor as in the 2nd photo?
2, Would you care to share the .mdat file of the room's measurements with us?
Old 16th February 2020
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
Having designed this person's room it seems like you are calling yourself an acoustic designer.

Is your client delighted with their room?

Out of curiosity, two things:
1, Where did the speakers end up? Are they still on the floor as in the 2nd photo?
2, Would you care to share the .mdat file of the room's measurements with us?
Hi, Starlight.

The client was satisfied once we managed to achieve the same experience in this small room that he had in a room 3 to 4 times larger (even if the data for that room shows very little treatment from 300hz and below). It's worth mentioning that his rig is not very expensive, at least for now.

1- According to EBUtech 3276 the speaker tweeter and listening position must be 1,2 meter height, we tested and measured the speaker response on the ground and on a improvised stand, we concluded that with the speakers and the ears at 1,2m the stereo perception and the speaker response was largely improved. the client already ordered some nice stands for the speakers, as well as good chair with height adjustment.

2- the measurement data is on a post right above, please tell me if the link works as well as the data.
Old 16th February 2020
  #11
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exprymer View Post
Is this good enough for me to call myself an acoustic designer?
You can call yourself whatever you want, but if you're seeking validation on a forum from random people then it seems you already know your own truth.
Old 16th February 2020
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
You can call yourself whatever you want, but if you're seeking validation on a forum from random people then it seems you already know your own truth.
Hi jason!

Well, it's my first project implemented. Not much pratical experience and relying almost solely on theoretical knowledge and experiences from others, such as your studio build thread, which i analysed carefully and used the data for reference.

Reading inputs from you, northward, G.E and other relevant people would really make me confident to continue calling myself an "acoustic designer", even if as northward stated, is not very big deal this days!
Old 16th February 2020
  #13
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robert82's Avatar
"I am an acoustic designer" or "I have acoustically treated one or two rooms in my entire life" ?
Old 16th February 2020
  #14
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exprymer View Post
Hi jason!

Well, it's my first project implemented. Not much pratical experience and relying almost solely on theoretical knowledge and experiences from others, such as your studio build, which i analysed carefully and used the data for reference.

Reading inputs from you, northward, G.E and other relevant people would really make me confident to continue calling myself an "acoustic designer", even if as northward stated, is not very big deal this days!
I'm not an acoustic designer, i'm a concrete polisher, and dj/producer (lol, thanks, thomas) at best. I have learned a lot from reading day and night about acoustics, and asking countless questions to the experts around here. The more i learn, the more i realise i dont know, and the ammount of time and knowledge the actual experts have devoted to learn their profession. Theres so much about acoustics that im still simply ignorant to, and for those reasons, i wouldnt dare call myself an expert. It would be an insult to those who truly are.
Old 16th February 2020
  #15
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

All that being said, it looks like you did a great job building treatment, and created a great vibe in that room. If your client is happy, then job well done. I wish you the best of luck in the future.
Old 16th February 2020
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
I'm not an acoustic designer, i'm a concrete polisher, and dj/producer (lol, thanks, thomas) at best. I have learned a lot from reading day and night about acoustics, and asking countless questions to the experts around here. The more i learn, the more i realise i dont know, and the ammount of time and knowledge the actual experts have devoted to learn their profession. Theres so much about acoustics that im still simply ignorant to, and for those reasons, i wouldnt dare call myself an expert. It would be an insult to those who truly are.

I can relate with that. I started all of this as an Hardstyle producer, when i was an teenager. Since i heard that acoustics played a really big part in the way we judge sound, i started studying about this. It's safe to say that i did the same, about spending whole nights diving into foruns and books. Today i realize that Acoustics Design is what i like the most, and really want to make a living out of it. The whole point of the thread title is to know where i stand right now, amongst people like the experts we've both read and learned from. There's no such a thing as an known Studio designer or acoustics Designer in my country. This field here is very new and full of misconceptions. That's why i want to know from the experts i know if i'm doing fine.

But anyway, my client loves pink floyd, This LED's will make him reach saturn.

Thank you for the feedback! best of luck!
Old 16th February 2020
  #17
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Northward's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exprymer View Post
Hey thomas! how you're doing?

i agree with you. I'm familiar with some guys doing things that way in Europe, visually at least. But as you can see, if you have the time, is that after the absorption i dimensioned as well as the BAD panels, everything are working according the EBU tech 3276. This build is in Brasil, where neither those "acoustic Designers" and acoustic product manufactures exists.
I'm good, thank you

EBU standards are very loose and easy to attain. They represent the minimum bare quality standard. Like my colleague used to say, "it's like shooting at a large target from a couple of feet away". Aim higher

Design is a difficult market to be in: there are guys that buy premade stuff, slap 'em on the walls and make it look spacey and futuristic, while enjoying a comfortable margin on the sales and yet have no or little idea what they are doing and feel no accountability - but they never forget to post a photo with a famous DJ on IG. There are many users on this forum and other fora that I guarantee will do a much better job then them and understand the science much better than them.

Then you have the other extreme, where you deal with a real professional project, for clients and facilities that have highly trained ears and rows of Grammy's and platinum records on their wall, that know more than enough to be dangerous and have very high expectations. Where you're fully responsible for the outcome of projects in the 6 to 7 figures, where on top of pretty complex acoustic models and systems integration you need to provide clear structural and architectural data, hence interact 1:1 with structural engineers and architects, speaker manufacturers, manage cabling, HVAC, electrical... Not make a single mistake along the way and deliver projects in a timely fashion. To standard, from day 1.

Those are two very different jobs, with very different quality outcomes and very different levels of financial and psychological pressure. Yet, they're called the same thing. And too many people at the edges of the industry think they're interchangeable.

It takes at least 6 years and a number of successful projects to become somehow a bit good at this. And a very solid background in engineering and science to start with.

If there is a local market for this and you feel it's for you and you have the required competences, go for it!

But keep one thing in mind: all of the top guys work worldwide. The reason is it's a small niche market and down the line only a handful per generation survive the natural selection - which is a mix of high competence, dedication, integrity, hard work, systematic high quality results and willingness to travel far.

Brazil is big, but if you're to have a career, look a lot further.
Old 16th February 2020
  #18
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Receiving advice from the best is why i'm here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
EBU standards are very loose and easy to attain. They represent the minimum bare quality standard. Like my colleague used to say, "it's like shooting at a large target from a couple of feet away". Aim higher
It's not difficult indeed to be inside the requirements, except for the low end decay. Could you point me to a more tight Standard? it seems the EBU and ITU are still very relevant these days. I also took into account the HRTF concepts, that i first heard about from you. Of course, not in a very specific way like you do, but the room does not gives any disconfort to the ear. RT30 are pretty flat
and no ear pressure feeling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
Design is a difficult market to be in: there are guys that buy premade stuff, slap 'em on the walls and make it look spacey and futuristic, while enjoying a comfortable margin on the sales and yet have no or little idea what they are doing and feel no accountability - but they never forget to post a photo with a famous DJ on IG. There are many users on this forum and other fora that I guarantee will do a much better job then them and understand the science much better than them.
I know the work of some of them. Very often relying on dsp to compensate flaws in the response. Though i believe the visual appeal they provide is important for the consumer. I just tried to take the best i can provide in treatment and finish with a nice visual. As i said i couldn't use pre made stuff, so i had to construct my own, which did the job better than i expected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
Then you have the other extreme, where you deal with a real professional project, for clients and facilities that have highly trained ears and rows of Grammy's and platinum records on their wall, that know more than enough to be dangerous and have very high expectations. Where you're fully responsible for the outcome of projects in the 6 to 7 figures, where on top of pretty complex acoustic models and systems integration you need to provide clear structural and architectural data, hence interact 1:1 with structural engineers and architects, speaker manufacturers, manage cabling, HVAC, electrical... Not make a single mistake along the way and deliver projects in a timely fashion. To standard, from day 1.
I can only imagine how big the responsability must be. The burden i carried on this simple project was not easy to carry, but i believe we get used to it as we become more confident on the technologies we apply to deal with the problems we measure. (rookie alert)
Dealing with a room from ground up is on another level entirely. Maybe one day i can enjoy one of your rooms, so i can know what to aim. Till that i can only dream. Huge fan, here. Have read extensively about the FTB technique.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
It takes at least 6 years and a number of successful projects to become somehow a bit good at this. And a very solid background in engineering and science to start with.
I'm just starting, but always have been the type of person who likes to improve at things instead of just doing it. There's no doubt the amount of physics and engineering i've learned throughout my graduation helped me to understand better the subject and make better decisions. I guess consistency is the key, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
If there is a local market for this and you feel it's for you and you have the required competences, go for it!

But keep one thing in mind: all of the top guys work worldwide. The reason is it's a small niche market and down the line only a handful per generation survive the natural selection - which is a mix of high competence, dedication, integrity, hard work, systematic high quality results and willingness to travel far.

Brazil is big, but if you're to have a career, look a lot further.
Thank you for the words. I indeed will look further. Must say that business is a very new thing to me, i guess i will learn by doing it. Don't know another thing but study. Things will have to change! To be a professional on the field that people around the world can rely is my goal indeed.
Old 16th February 2020
  #19
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Empty room

i will just publish the data here, for easier consultancy.


this is the measurements for the empty room. Mic centered and speaker on the corner.

This measurement is from an year ago, long before the beginning of the project.
Attached Thumbnails
Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-empty-room-decay.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-empty-room-etc.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-empty-room-freq-response.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-empty-room-impulse.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-empty-room-spectrogram.jpg  

Old 16th February 2020
  #20
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after EPA's

this measurement is after the construction of the EPA's.

The mic is positioned on the upper corner opposite to the speaker, according to G.E tests. the speaker was a tower speaker which we have to jump the tweeter for it to work, i forgot to do that (: but we are measuring low end response so...
Attached Thumbnails
Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-epas-only-impulse.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-epas-only-rt30.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-epas-only-decay.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-epas-only-freq-response.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-epas-only-spectrogram.jpg  

Old 16th February 2020
  #21
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monitors in place

this measurement is from the speaker location in the room, which can still be improved, i just had not the time to map the whole usable area for the best placement. this measurement is After the implementation of the BAD panels


Left speaker only.
Attached Thumbnails
Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-left-monitor-decay.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-left-monitor-etc.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-left-monitor-freq-response.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-left-monitor-impulse.jpg   Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-left-monitor-rt30.jpg  

Is this good enough for me to call myself an Acoustic Designer?-left-monitor-spectrogram.jpg  
Old 17th February 2020
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exprymer View Post
As i said i couldn't use pre made stuff, so i had to construct my own, which did the job better than i expected.
There's another career for you if you want to pick it up: Build stuff that does something (proven by independent measurements, please), sell it.
Old 17th February 2020
  #23
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
To me an acoustic designer is someone who's knowledgable and experienced enough to design a studio to a certain set of exepected results.

The basics can go very far, but to me being able 'guarantee' the end result within a certain tolerance, is what separates journeyman from master or a true designer.

Keep in mind one of John Storyks first projects was electric ladyland for Jimmy Hendrix. He designed a club jimmy liked, john is/was an architect not acoustic designer at that point. I would not doubt Eddie Kramer had some input on that side of things.

Watever you call yourself, just be honest. Ive found Rod Gervias to be very generous and helpful on projects where ive gotten stuck on parts if the designs and builds. There's no shame in getting help from someone more experienced than you. Your client will happily pay to get the result they want, they save money using you on the things you are sure of, and get what they need when you interface with a master about things your unsure of.
Old 17th February 2020
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannburkard View Post
There's another career for you if you want to pick it up: Build stuff that does something (proven by independent measurements, please), sell it.
Hi, Johan, thanks for the advice!

I definitely want to do that in the future, covering a bigger market. What i see here is people selling snake oil products that does not help at all the final result of what an audiophile or engineer wants both acoustically and Eletrically. Making products that can improve the acoustics of bedroom producers or singers trying to record themselves at home would be amazing. I hope to get to that someday.
Old 17th February 2020
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
To me an acoustic designer is someone who's knowledgable and experienced enough to design a studio to a certain set of exepected results.

The basics can go very far, but to me being able 'guarantee' the end result within a certain tolerance, is what separates journeyman from master or a true designer.

Keep in mind one of John Storyks first projects was electric ladyland for Jimmy Hendrix. He designed a club jimmy liked, john is/was an architect not acoustic designer at that point. I would not doubt Eddie Kramer had some input on that side of things.

Watever you call yourself, just be honest. Ive found Rod Gervias to be very generous and helpful on projects where ive gotten stuck on parts if the designs and builds. There's no shame in getting help from someone more experienced than you. Your client will happily pay to get the result they want, they save money using you on the things you are sure of, and get what they need when you interface with a master about things your unsure of.
+1 for sure. with experiences and measured data i will develop ways to predict and thus being confident enough to guarantee the final result. About the cooperativity with other designers, that's what allowed me to build this in the first place, good will from very experienced people, for which i'm very grateful. thank you for the input!
Old 21st February 2020
  #26
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TomStevens's Avatar
 

If all it takes to be an acoustic designer is having acoustically treated a room with decent results, then there are thousands of acoustic designers all over the place. In reality, great studio designers are quite a minority.

As they say, anyone with a pair of scissors can cut hair. Among other things (and there are many), it's the technical knowledge and years of experience dealing with problem solving across a wide variety of circumstances that make a professional. And there truly is no amount of theory or reading that can substitute for years of first hand experience. Along the way you'll discover many counter-intuitive things in acoustics.

Keep at it. If you're making people's rooms sound better, learning, and gaining experience, that's great! Just be careful not to get ahead of yourself. If you're always trying to outdo and find the flaws in your previous work, you're on a good path
Old 5 days ago
  #27
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
"I am an acoustic designer" or "I have acoustically treated one or two rooms in my entire life" ?
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