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Old 16th February 2020
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Studio Building Feedback

Hi everyone,

One of my first posts around here, thanks for your time and suggestions. I'm beginning to plan converting a downstairs bedroom to a music studio room. My goal is to have a reasonably soundproofed space (minimal noise entry from outside in and reverse) with some basic acoustic treatment where I can record vocals, maybe some acoustic guitar and electric guitar down the road and do some amateur mixing/producing at all hours of the day without bothering neighbours or tenants. I'm currently leaning towards building a room within the room with a small gap between between old and new walls.

I'm most concerned about impact noise from upstairs through the ceiling. My current plan is to remove the ductwork (oil furnace) in the ceiling, remove all old ceiling drywall, fill with rockwool safe n sound, then re-drywall w/ 2 layer 5/8ths. If I don't frame a new ceiling on-top of the new walls then I would likely use rebar on the existing ceiling joists before 2 layers of 5/8ths. From there I think I would do a small drop/suspended ceiling with a small air gap and another layer of safe n sound sitting on the acoustic tiles. I hope that makes sense. The current ceiling to floor height is 7' 3 3/4" so there is little room to work with.

Ive done a quick basic sketch-up image with the room to scale. The space currently is just under 9.5' x 12'. The first image is the current configuration and the second (with the blue) is an option for moving the entry/door.

Some of the challenges are the big closet bifold doors, pony wall under window, the window itself and the ceiling bulkhead with upstairs stairs inside.

New Wall construction would be 2x4 16OC w/ rookwool safe n sound and 2 layers of 5/8" drywall. Double solid doors for entry. New single solid door for closet entry.
Floor currently is floating laminate over concrete subfloor.


I'm open to any of your suggestions and ideas on how to best achieve my goals.

1) Where do you think would be the best position for the desk/workstation? (with the option of moving door if it betters the situation?)

2) Do I need to worry about building a new wall over the concrete pony wall (exterior wall here) I'd really lose a lot of space in the room if I built inside of the pony wall.

3) Do you think a single solid sealed door for the closet would be sufficient in keeping noise entry/exit down?

4) Would simply building the new walls overtop of the laminate flooring work ok? I want to lose as little vertical space as possible.

5) If I'm doing 2 layers 5/8 drywall on original ceiling joists-> air gap-> rockwool -> new ceiling (either additional framed or suspended) is rez bar on original joists redundant as the 2nd ceiling is decoupled?

Thankful for all of the great resource and information on this site that has helped me get the plans to this point.

Any feedback appreciated,
James
Attached Thumbnails
Studio Building Feedback-screen-shot-2020-02-15-3.27.38-pm.jpg   Studio Building Feedback-screen-shot-2020-02-15-3.28.08-pm.jpg  

Last edited by shaumbs; 16th February 2020 at 04:40 AM..
Old 16th February 2020
  #2
Here for the gear
 

Double Wall construction

Wow so I found from a couple sources that having an additional layer of drywall inbetween the two walls (room within a room) can actually decrease the STC. Can anyone confirm this? According to these two sources it would be better for me to remove the inside layer on the first wall before constructing second wall. This seems counter-intuitive to me!
J
Attached Thumbnails
Studio Building Feedback-screen-shot-2020-02-15-8.08.41-pm.jpg   Studio Building Feedback-screen-shot-2020-02-15-8.12.14-pm.jpg  
Old 16th February 2020
  #3
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Starlight's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaumbs View Post
Can anyone confirm this?
Yes, I and many others can confirm that. IR761, a PDF from the National research Council of Canada, explains all the tests and results that are summarised in the first image you posted.

Edited to add: The two walls work together as a system. Have a read of What is "MSM" or "MAM"? to get a better understanding of how this works.
Old 16th February 2020
  #4
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Thumbs up

Great article @ Starlight Thankyou for sharing. I was particularly encouraged by this:

“but as a general rule you need two layers of 5/8" drywall on each side of an 8" gap to get full coverage of the entire spectrum. Consider that normal 2x4 studs are actually 3 1/2" wide, and you have two stud-framed leaves in most home studios, that's already 7": so if you have a 1" gap between the original outer-leaf frame, and your new inner-leaf frame, then you have an 8" gap!”

Unfortunately I cannot add an additional layer to the outside of the existing wall, but I will now plan to remove all of the existing inside drywall of the outer leaf to create one mass-spring-mass system.
Old 17th February 2020
  #5
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaumbs View Post
Great article @ Starlight Thankyou for sharing. I was particularly encouraged by this:

“but as a general rule you need two layers of 5/8" drywall on each side of an 8" gap to get full coverage of the entire spectrum. Consider that normal 2x4 studs are actually 3 1/2" wide, and you have two stud-framed leaves in most home studios, that's already 7": so if you have a 1" gap between the original outer-leaf frame, and your new inner-leaf frame, then you have an 8" gap!”

Unfortunately I cannot add an additional layer to the outside of the existing wall, but I will now plan to remove all of the existing inside drywall of the outer leaf to create one mass-spring-mass system.
You can beef up the the existing wall by fitting drywall in between the stud bays, pressed tight to the existing wall. This gives you more mass (isolation) and maintains proper MAM construction.
Old 17th February 2020
  #6
Here for the gear
 

Thanks @ Kyle P. Gushue I read this somewhere too and will definitely do that.

Quick update for anyone following..

Plans have changed. Did some consulting with John Brandt (highly recommend his service for anyone serious about building a studio) and discovered there is not enough space to build a room within this room. It is just too small already. I was unaware that you can actually get some pretty great results with a coupled wall system- even up to 60db reduction. Although low frequencies will not be completely isolated, I’m mostly going to be using the space for recording vocals, and in the box stuff, maybe some acoustic guitar. So mids and highs should be kept inside.

Plan is to remove all old drywall, add second layer inbetween studs(zero air gaps, brad nailed perpendicular to hold in place, caulk gaps). Then insulate all open spaces between studs. From there two layers staggered 5/8” fire rated drywall will be installed. Ceiling is same.

Planning on putting studio desk against window, moving door (as second photo shows) and also will be walling over the current closet door and putting a new smaller access in hallway. As for the bulkhead, I’ll just work with the existing framing and apply the same treatment.

1) can anyone speak to green glue and if it would be worth it on the described method above? I’ve heard mixed feedback.

Now that sound isolating/construction plans are nearly complete, Next steps are to research some acoustic treatment and vocal recording setup in the space.

James

Last edited by shaumbs; 17th February 2020 at 10:23 PM..
Old 17th February 2020
  #7
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaumbs View Post
Thanks @ Kyle P. Gushue I read this somewhere too and will definitely do that.

Quick update for anyone following..

Plans have changed. Did some consulting with John Brandt (highly recommend his service for anyone serious about building a studio) and discovered there is not enough space to build a room within this room. It is just too small already. I was unaware that you can actually get some pretty great results with a coupled wall system- even up to 60db reduction. Although low frequencies will not be completely isolated, I’m mostly going to be using the space for recording vocals, and in the box stuff, maybe some acoustic guitar. So mids and highs should be kept inside.

Plan is to remove all old drywall, add second layer inbetween studs(zero air gaps, brad nailed perpendicular to hold in place, caulk gaps). Then insulate all open spaces between studs. From there two layers staggered 5/8” fire rated drywall will be installed. Ceiling is same.

Planning on putting studio desk against window, moving door (as second photo shows) and also will be walking over the current closet door and putting a new smaller access in hallway. As for the bulkhead, I’ll just work with the existing framing and apply the same treatment.

1) can anyone speak to green glue and if it would be worth it on the described method above? I’ve heard mixed feedback.

Now that sound isolating/construction plans are nearly complete, Next steps are to research some acoustic treatment and vocal recording setup in the space.

James
Green glue is generally useful in builds where your looking for the effect of 4 layers of drywall. If planning on 4x layers of drywall it can be better to use gg between 2 layers of drywall instead.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #8
Here for the gear
 

Hey everyone.

Studio progress is going well. Almost done addin layer of drywall inbetween studs on outer leaf. Leaning towards green glue on the whole rooms

Question about the ceiling. Is a Rezbar (resilient channel) an option? Two layers 5/8” on top? Is that too much weight?

Really trying to explore what options I have for the ceiling as I know it’s going to be the biggest factor for noise bleed.

Is it worth it to add a layer of something onto the subfloor between joists?

I don’t have much height to work with. (Just over 7’ after drywall installed to joists)
Thanks for feedback,
J
Old 3 weeks ago
  #9
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaumbs View Post
Hey everyone.

Studio progress is going well. Almost done addin layer of drywall inbetween studs on outer leaf. Leaning towards green glue on the whole rooms

Question about the ceiling. Is a Rezbar (resilient channel) an option? Two layers 5/8” on top? Is that too much weight?

Really trying to explore what options I have for the ceiling as I know it’s going to be the biggest factor for noise bleed.

Is it worth it to add a layer of something onto the subfloor between joists?

I don’t have much height to work with. (Just over 7’ after drywall installed to joists)
Thanks for feedback,
J
Resilient channel adds about 6db of isolation, risc 1 clips and hat channel add about 8 or 9db of isolation if memory serves me. The weight bearing will be listed in the product manual. Remember that these solutions only help with airborne noise, and wont do much for foot traffic ect. You've got to be sure the existing assembly can handle the additional mass.

Massing up the subfloor is a good way to increase isolation. Verify the assembly can handle the additional mass.

Its common to add the same amount of mass to both walls and ceiling, so there are no weak links with regard to mass.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
Here for the gear
 

Thanks for the feedback Kyle. Ended up not going with any additional ceiling mass or rezbar. Just not enough height to work with.

That brings me to another question.. I’m planning the ceiling cloud and will construct it likely tomorrow. I have 5.5” above the door opening of clearance between top of the door and the ceiling. I think I can stretch this to 6” (hard to explain just go with me).

Question: Am I better off building a 5.5” cloud directly flush to the ceiling or a smaller depth with an air gap between the ceiling?

All the clouds I have seen are suspended from the ceiling but I just don’t have the height.

My current thought is to build the full 5.5” depth and mount flush to the ceiling. (Cloud will be 2x 4’x4’ panels with rock wool and fabric wrapped).

Thanks,
James
Old 2 weeks ago
  #11
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaumbs View Post
Thanks for the feedback Kyle. Ended up not going with any additional ceiling mass or rezbar. Just not enough height to work with.

That brings me to another question.. I’m planning the ceiling cloud and will construct it likely tomorrow. I have 5.5” above the door opening of clearance between top of the door and the ceiling. I think I can stretch this to 6” (hard to explain just go with me).

Question: Am I better off building a 5.5” cloud directly flush to the ceiling or a smaller depth with an air gap between the ceiling?

All the clouds I have seen are suspended from the ceiling but I just don’t have the height.

My current thought is to build the full 5.5” depth and mount flush to the ceiling. (Cloud will be 2x 4’x4’ panels with rock wool and fabric wrapped).
Rockwool is a brand. I suggest the Safe N Sound Rockwool.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #12
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaumbs View Post
Thanks for the feedback Kyle. Ended up not going with any additional ceiling mass or rezbar. Just not enough height to work with.

That brings me to another question.. I’m planning the ceiling cloud and will construct it likely tomorrow. I have 5.5” above the door opening of clearance between top of the door and the ceiling. I think I can stretch this to 6” (hard to explain just go with me).

Question: Am I better off building a 5.5” cloud directly flush to the ceiling or a smaller depth with an air gap between the ceiling?

All the clouds I have seen are suspended from the ceiling but I just don’t have the height.

My current thought is to build the full 5.5” depth and mount flush to the ceiling. (Cloud will be 2x 4’x4’ panels with rock wool and fabric wrapped).

Thanks,
James
You can experiment with depths and air gaps, here at acousticmodeling.com, 4" panels with a 1.5" airgap would probably be a good overall cloud considering your space and standard panel depth. A 2" panel with 3.5" of fluffy insulation is another option worth considering.

Edit: Im not sure if your speaking of rigid/semi rigid rockwool or if its limp rockwool.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #13
Here for the gear
 

Ya so it’s the limp rock wool. I have some safe and sound and some regular stuff

Debating on whether to do a 5.5” cloud with no air gap or a 3” cloud with 2.5-3” air gap. Thoughts? Wood frame.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #14
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaumbs View Post
Ya so it’s the limp rock wool. I have some safe and sound and some regular stuff

Debating on whether to do a 5.5” cloud with no air gap or a 3” cloud with 2.5-3” air gap. Thoughts? Wood frame.
You are stupid to not include density in the discussion.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #15
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaumbs View Post
Ya so it’s the limp rock wool. I have some safe and sound and some regular stuff

Debating on whether to do a 5.5” cloud with no air gap or a 3” cloud with 2.5-3” air gap. Thoughts? Wood frame.
If the density is low (similar to fluffy fiberglass) then 5.5" of insulation is fine. Otherwise id keep the insulation less than 4". If you stuff the frame completely, you cant mount it with an airgap.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #16
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
If the density is low (similar to fluffy fiberglass) then 5.5" of insulation is fine. Otherwise id keep the insulation less than 4". If you stuff the frame completely, you cant mount it with an airgap.
Safe N Sound is just about ideal for 5.5" thick absorbers.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #17
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Thumbs up

Got the cloud up 8’x8’ (5.5” safensound), early reflection panels 27”x5’x5.5”, some floor to ceiling corners on back wall (about 10” deep at Center), and a 5.5” panel that inserts into the front window. Under the cloud sounds amazing. Excellent clarity. Back of the room though is some pretty bad high end flutter I need to deal with. Not sure how much this will influence vocal recording up front and listening in the front yet as I don’t have the gear setup quite yet. Might have to extend the ceiling treatment. Hoping to get a rug in here which might tame things a bit, plus more furniture to go in yet.

Sound proofing results... nothing legit written/recorded. But it’s way better now. Of course not 100% isolation, but I can barely hear people talking upstairs, and when someone is just on the other side of the wall downstairs I can sometimes hear some muffled talking depending on what volume lvl they are speaking at but can’t make out any words.

It’s been tough having expectations, and going at this project with a small budget, doing all my own labour, and a first project of its kind. I am certainly glad I paid attention to as many of the small details that I did as I think I would have been disappointed if I didn’t. Sound isolation is no joke and not easy. My next studio (who knows) would either be RIAM or detached building. This space I’ve created is big step up from just throwing up some gear in a bedroom and will definitely serve me in developing my producing, recording, writing, mixing to the next level.

Still finishing up a few things. Going to design and build a desk, paint an accent wall, have a baby (yes that’s monday lol), then hopefully get around to what it’s all about... making some music!!!

Will try and throw some photos up- what site do you guys like to use to host photos?

Thanks for the feedback from everyone along the way.
James
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