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Before I start my studio build
Old 18th January 2020
  #1
Lives for gear
Before I start my studio build

Wise ones,
I am about to buy a new-construction stick-built house with a large bonus room above the garage -- maybe 25 x 25 with 10" ceilings. So it is quite the canvas for building a studio.

Some initial questions, asked with naivete, so save yourself the effort of pointing out my ignorance. It is obvious. That is why I am asking questions.

1) Let it snow. So the attic above the room is full of copious mounds of brand-new, fluffy, blown-in cellulose insulation. If I make a hole in the ceiling, I can expect an unpleasant mess. (A) how do I get this crap out of the way to make ceiling alterations; and (B) what is the end game if I'm doing a room-within-a-room build out, or a room-within-a room for all but the ceiling? I could see several possibilities:
- single leaf with another layer of gypsum/green glue, while leaving the current ceiling intact. Seal up the ceiling fixtures with putty and boxes.
- single leaf with resilient channels, after somehow dealing with the insulation.
-double leaf with one being on the attic side of the studs, the other on either floating studs or a separate stud system. Then I have the issue of the very long span, so perhaps an iso clip or two midway, connecting the studs? Pink fluffy between the leaves? The attic ventilates passively with soffits and roof ridge vents. Inhibiting mold growth and allowing proper ventilation are a big priority. Does anything go between the attic-side wallboard and the studs, like blue rigid?
-Something else?

The main concern is sound transfer through the rest of the house via the attic.
I am in Nashville, TN, so deep freezes are not a major concern.

2) Structural integrity. This is a second-story room, and I have concerns about how much mass I can add without overburdening the structure. Are there rules of thumb? Seems like people on here add a ton of mass without much afterthought. Or do I need a structural engineer right away?

3) Ducting. Can I build sound mazes within the walls? I don't really want big boxes in the room. I suppose they could go in the attic. Does anyone use IAC quiet duct or similar products, or are they not worth the money?

4) Flanking through the floor. I don't care how much sound gets into the garage below, but I don't want that sound to flank via the garage and/or studio floor to the rest of the house.

5) Natural light. So the room is not completely walled off. There is a big opening from the second-floor landing, with short steps down into the room and a banister protecting the drop-off. Presumably sound will escape through this giant hole So I must seal it with a wall. However the studio has lovely large windows that light the landing. Is there a way to put windows, perhaps long narrow ones using acoustic glass, in the wall without compromising the STC reduction too greatly?

Thanks for your consideration. I'm just thinking about what's possible so that I can devise a course of action. Money is a big concern, so if I hire experts, I need to hire intelligently.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #2
Something tells me you should consult with a professional.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #3
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by johannburkard View Post
Something tells me you should consult with a professional.
Hmm, that reminds me of exactly what I said, thanks

What I'm asking is: generally what kind of approaches are used in these situations, what are the pitfalls, and what kind of professional(s)? I can't hire Nashville's fanciest studio designer, but I would obviously get plans drawn up at minimum. I'm not going to start swinging a hammer and hope for the best.

I just want some guidance on what is realistic and what to look out for, from people who have experience with attics like mine, large-ish rooms on second floors of stick-built houses (which is not something you're likely to encounter in Bayern, soweit ich weiss).

Thanks!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by 808KickDrum View Post
I just want some guidance on what is realistic and what to look out for, from people who have experience with attics like mine, large-ish rooms on second floors of stick-built houses (which is not something you're likely to encounter in Bayern, soweit ich weiss).
Right, everything here is brick and concrete. Benefits: Won't fall apart in a storm. Drawbacks: Crazy room modes.

I always recommend an initial (REW) measurement. Who knows, your building may let bass through so you may need a lot less treatment.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #5
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by johannburkard View Post
Right, everything here is brick and concrete. Benefits: Won't fall apart in a storm. Drawbacks: Crazy room modes.

I always recommend an initial (REW) measurement. Who knows, your building may let bass through so you may need a lot less treatment.
That is a good point. Of course I'll be going from three walls to four, but an initial measurement in the attic makes sense. Thanks.

Here are some picture of the room and the mess in the attic, in case they help.
Attached Thumbnails
Before I start my studio build-insulation.jpg   Before I start my studio build-music-rm-2.jpg   Before I start my studio build-music-rm-1.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

What are you playing/recording? How loud are you? Whats the rooms purpose?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by 808KickDrum View Post
Here are some picture of the room and the mess in the attic, in case they help.
Have you checked if the insulation is cocaine? Might help financing your studio.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8
Lives for gear
The room will be a mixed production / recording / mixing room. I play drums, so I'm loud. I may occasionally track bands, though not often.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #9
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by johannburkard View Post
Have you checked if the insulation is cocaine? Might help financing your studio.
Ha, if only. Presumably the house would've cost a lot more. Also I'm not sure what the R value is of loose cocaine. As it is new construction, none of the storied Nashville drug-abusing musicians have lived there. Plus they all did amphetamine pills.


It looks pinkish, which unfortunately suggests it's nasty fiberglass instead of cellulose.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #10
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 808KickDrum View Post
The room will be a mixed production / recording / mixing room. I play drums, so I'm loud. I may occasionally track bands, though not often.
Getting natural light in to soundproofed area?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #11
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Thanks, very interesting. Yikes, the existing windows are massive. Will not be cheap to keep them. At least I have space for a big air gap.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #12
Lives for gear
Does anyone have suggestions about the attic? How does a decoupled single-leaf with tons of insulation on tip compare to the various forms of double-leaf?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #13
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Jason Foi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 808KickDrum View Post
Does anyone have suggestions about the attic? How does a decoupled single-leaf with tons of insulation on tip compare to the various forms of double-leaf?
Single leaf is subject to the mass law. Every doubling of mass gives you 6db more isolation. So if a 6" brick wall gives you 30db isolation, a 12" wall gives you 36db, a 24" wall gives you 42db, etc, etc.. It is not the way to go if youre looking for high levels of isolation.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #14
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 808KickDrum View Post
Does anyone have suggestions about the attic? How does a decoupled single-leaf with tons of insulation on tip compare to the various forms of double-leaf?
The attic is the air gap in the MAM system of the ceiling and roof.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #15
Perhaps the Carbon Absorption Wall with the Activated Carbon Diaphragmatic Absorber technology would assist in reaching your goals.

Acoustic Fields: https://www.acousticfields.com

That is all I will say as I fully expect to be under attack,... again.

Good luck with your project.
Attached Thumbnails
Before I start my studio build-carbon-apsortion-wall.jpg   Before I start my studio build-diaphragmatic-stud-space-absorber.jpg   Before I start my studio build-carbon-diaphragmatic-stud-wall-absorption-..png  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #16
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roll Tape View Post
Perhaps the Carbon Absorption Wall with the Activated Carbon Diaphragmatic Absorber technology would assist in reaching your goals.

Acoustic Fields: https://www.acousticfields.com

That is all I will say as I fully expect to be under attack,... again.

Good luck with your project.
Why is this guy allowed to pollute every thread advertising his snake oil?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #17
Lives for gear
1) If the roof is vented, my understanding is you can use the existing ceiling as your outer leaf provided you close it up completely from all existing penetrations (and possibly add GG and 2nd layer drywall) and ignore the actual roof as a leaf.

Here is a thread on Sayers about roof vents-

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6054

1, B) Not to be overly picky, but no part of a ceiling assembly uses a "stud", because we can't be on site and don't have pics it's helpful to use the right terms. A floor or ceiling framing member that is one continuous piece is called a joist (like a 2x8 or could be a TJI), if you have a gabled roof with framed webbing creating the attic space that's called a truss. The bottom member of a truss is called the bottom chord.

In any case dealing with insulation will be one of the easier parts of this job, make a mess, vacuum it up with a shop vac. To the other questions, if you need isolation for a drum set you will need a complete room in room assembly including the ceiling and with this being on a wood deck, also the floor. Drywall iso clips will not be rated to carry enough load to support your inner leaf joists, there are isolation hangers, but correct loading of these isn't easy. You can run I-joists for a 25' span, especially as you are all dead load here.

But at this point it makes sense to stop for a second because building a room with enough isolation for a drum set on the 2nd floor of a wood frame assembly is likely out of reach here. Yes you will definitely need a structural engineer, because a complete room in a room including decoupled ceiling and floor is almost certainly going to require significant rework of the existing structure to support the load- likely all the way down to adding to the foundation. Probably something like adding footings, posts and a beam to the midpoint of the floor joists (in the garage below), maybe doubling the joists etc. Then you would be able to support a properly floated floor with a 4" slab on the 2nd floor, where you can build your inner assembly on top of that slab. This is going to easily be a 6 figure project...

With that being the case, a much better canvas for a high isolation room is a freestanding, single story building with a slab on grade. This could be built from the ground up for less.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #18
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roll Tape View Post
That is all I will say as I fully expect to be under attack,... again.
Absorbers are not isolators. Rather these have good ROI or not compared to just stuffing the stud cavity with fiberglass is a reasonable debate for another thread (ideally one with measurements of finished spaces), but neither option here will help the OP with structural borne vibration or isolation in general.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
Why is this guy allowed to pollute every thread advertising his snake oil?
+100! He comes across like a paid shill for the questionable manufacturer of that product, which in fact would do nothing at all for the OP. He needs isolation, not treatment.

Sad.

- Stuart -
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