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Question On Converting Garage To Studio/Rehearsal Space
Old 5th January 2020
  #1
Question On Converting Garage To Studio/Rehearsal Space

Hi all,

I am converting my garage to a rehearsal/drum recording space (shocking, I know nobody here has every heard of this before), and I have some questions.

I have read Rod's book, which was eye opening and answered a TON of questions, and then answered a bunch of questions I didn't even know I had. Then I read through the entire thread on this site dedicated to Rod answering questions about his book... which also answered a bunch of questions. I have also been reading a lot of similar threads in hopes to answer questions before I ask new ones. So here goes.

First, my goal here is to achieve a level of isolation so that my neighbor (about 20 feet away) can't hear me playing the drums. If total isolation of my kit is possible, that's my main goal. A secondary goal is to isolate a 5 piece band to be as quiet as possible so as to not cause a problem with the neighbors...as rehearsals will only be once a month or so (whereas me drumming will be 7 days a week).

My garage is detatached, approximately 250 sqft, with a gable pitched roof. The foundation is a concrete slab. The walls are stucco, and it's unfinished. Studs are 16" on center. Ceiling studs are 24" on center. The roll up garage door is 15 ft long, 8 ft high.

Question 1: when it comes to building a wall in front of the garage door, does the garage door count as a leaf? Should I be building a 2 leaf system in front of the door, or is the door considered a leaf and I should just be building a new frame with drywall on the inside to complete the 2nd leaf?

Question 2: Since the floor is concrete, and is not connected to any other structures, I'm under the impression a floating floor is unnecessary. What should I be putting down on the concrete before I put hardwood floor?

Is this something I want to look at? SUBFLOOR

Do I want to put any other sound isolating materials over that? plywood? MLV? Anything else?

Question 3: My plan for the walls is Stucco, original 2x4 frame with 16" OC filled with R-13 pink fluffy insulation, 1" space, 2x6 frame with 24" OC filled with pink fluffy insulation, sealed MLV, 5/8" drywall, green glue, 5/8" drywall. The ceiling will be slightly different because of weight constraints. But the same idea.

What am I missing in that wall configuration? Anything I should add? Anything in there I don't need?

A big thank you to Rod for the book, and all the people who chimed in on all of the threads with their info and experiences.
Old 5th January 2020
  #2
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You might find this thread useful: Building a studio for high isolation in a residential area, with nearby neighbors. He's doing what you seem to need: building a place to get high isolation for drums and other loud instruments, in a place with neighbors quite close.
Old 6th January 2020
  #3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
You might find this thread useful: Building a studio for high isolation in a residential area, with nearby neighbors. He's doing what you seem to need: building a place to get high isolation for drums and other loud instruments, in a place with neighbors quite close.
Thanks for posting this. I read through it and I have to say it doesn't really help answer my questions. His build is quite different than mine, so his material needs were different.
Old 7th January 2020
  #4
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
1. The door is considered a leaf. You can add mass to it, or remove it and frame out opening, and sheathe it and finish it equally to the rest of the outer walls. You want equal mass along the entire outer leaf, no weak spots.

2. No floating floor. Standard underlayment is fine. You may consider just using a concrete stain, or vinyl flooring that looks like wood.

3. Looks fine. You may want to use standard sheathing instead of mlv for ease of install. Rod often uses 3/4" osb wood as the base layer for walls and ceiling assemblies. It increases structural rigidity and gives you something to dig into if you miss a stud.

You may also want to use 2x4 framing insteas of 2x6 unless you need it for structural reasons, the money is better spent on mass instead of thicker framing.

You want to make the ceiling equal to the walls one way or the other. Each of the leafs should have equal mass all the way around. Sound is going to penetrate thru the weakest link.

Its super important to test your volume levels with an spl meter. This will help determine how much isolation you need. Otherwise its just guesswork. You want to be certain the design fits your requirements.
Old 7th January 2020
  #5
Kyle, Thank you for the reply. I have additional comments/questions to each of your points.

1. The door is considered a leaf. You can add mass to it, or remove it and frame out opening, and sheathe it and finish it equally to the rest of the outer walls. You want equal mass along the entire outer leaf, no weak spots.

I can't remove the garage door. So I have to build a wall inside and seal it off. So I guess I just need to build a single leaf with space in between the frame and the garage door? The problem with this is that the outer leaf will still just be the garage door, which has 0 isolating properties. All I can do is beef up the interior leaf... unless I intentionally make a 3 leaf system (the garage door being the 3rd leaf), and hope that performs better than a 2 leaf system with the garage door as being the 2nd/outer leaf.

2. No floating floor. Standard underlayment is fine. You may consider just using a concrete stain, or vinyl flooring that looks like wood.

Yeah over the last few days I've read a lot about it, and floating floor is definitely a no-go. But I do want to put hardwood down, so I'm trying to find/figure out the best option for an underlayment.

3. Looks fine. You may want to use standard sheathing instead of mlv for ease of install. Rod often uses 3/4" osb wood as the base layer for walls and ceiling assemblies. It increases structural rigidity and gives you something to dig into if you miss a stud.

Thanks for the OSB reminder. I remember reading one of Rod's posts and he mentioned this. I have decided to not use MLV. The cost/benefit analysis is just not worth it. I'm better off spending 1/3rd amount of money and just putting another layer of drywall and getting the same isolation amount. So i guess I can do OSB, Drywall, Green Glue, Drywall, Drywall (if necessary).

You may also want to use 2x4 framing insteas of 2x6 unless you need it for structural reasons, the money is better spent on mass instead of thicker framing.

I am having a structural engineer over today to take a look. I think I may need the 2x6 for the framing to support a new ceiling, which is going to hold a lot of mass. Plus, I keep reading that 2x6 with 24" on-center studs is best for low frequency isolation. That is my main priority, is to isolate the low frequencies every chance I can. So if i have to spend a little more on the framing, I'm OK with this.

You want to make the ceiling equal to the walls one way or the other. Each of the leafs should have equal mass all the way around. Sound is going to penetrate thru the weakest link.

Its super important to test your volume levels with an spl meter. This will help determine how much isolation you need. Otherwise its just guesswork. You want to be certain the design fits your requirements.

Thanks again for responding!
Old 7th January 2020
  #6
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Glad to help!!

If possible you want to beef up the garage door. If you have to put a 3rd leaf than make it as massive as possible. You can keep the assembly a true 2 leaf system as long as the garage door is physically coupled to the "outer" (not the studios "inner") leaf.

For instance you can make sure the drywall on the outer leaf touches the garage door with no gaps. You could "pad" out the garage door with a thin rigid foam insulation so the drywall is in contact with a consistent surface. You can use something like 703 to fill in any imperfections between the garage door and the drywall/rigid foam.

The idea is to make the garage door part of one solid leaf.

As far as underlayment, im not sure if its acceptable for concrete, but on wood decks ive used a simple foam underlayment for pergo. It comes in rolls. It does act like a vapour barrier which may not be suitable for concrete. I apologize for not having a good answer for this.
Old 7th January 2020
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
Glad to help!!

If possible you want to beef up the garage door. If you have to put a 3rd leaf than make it as massive as possible. You can keep the assembly a true 2 leaf system as long as the garage door is physically coupled to the "outer" (not the studios "inner") leaf.

For instance you can make sure the drywall on the outer leaf touches the garage door with no gaps. You could "pad" out the garage door with a thin rigid foam insulation so the drywall is in contact with a consistent surface. You can use something like 703 to fill in any imperfections between the garage door and the drywall/rigid foam.

The idea is to make the garage door part of one solid leaf.
Oh that makes SO much sense! That is definitely doable! Thank you so much for the clarification.
Old 11th January 2020
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag94 View Post
Thanks for posting this. I read through it and I have to say it doesn't really help answer my questions. His build is quite different than mine, so his material needs were different.
Not really. You have the same goals. You said: "First, my goal here is to achieve a level of isolation so that my neighbor (about 20 feet away) can't hear me playing the drums. If total isolation of my kit is possible, that's my main goal." To completely isolate drums to be inaudible 20 feet away, that's what it takes. That's the reason I posted the link.

Quote:
when it comes to building a wall in front of the garage door, does the garage door count as a leaf?
Assuming it is a typical thin sheet-metal or light wood panel door with gaps all around it, operated by some type of mechanical or electrical mechanism, then no, it is not a leaf. There's not enough mass in it for that, and the large air gaps all around also negate its being a leaf. So it is not a leaf, and cannot be used as part of your outer leaf. You will need to build an extension of the outer leaf around behind it, as in the photo sequence below. First the plan, then the actual implementation.

That said, the door is still part of the overall resonant system, and can still vibrate and resonate in sympathy with whatever is happening inside the studio, so it will need to be sealed up and damped as much as possible. Also seen in the photo below.

Quote:
Should I be building a 2 leaf system in front of the door, or is the door considered a leaf and I should just be building a new frame with drywall on the inside to complete the 2nd leaf?
Exactly. In the photo sequence I posted, that new construction is now the outer leaf, with the door still in place beyond it.

DO NOT add more mass to that door! Just leave it like it is, and put the mass on the wall, where it belongs.

DO put insulation in the area between the door and the new sheathing on the framing. You need that cavity filled completely with something like Pink Fluffy or another suitable insulation material, to act as a damper on the resonances that would otherwise form in that cavity, robbing you of isolation. Fill the cavity completely, but don't over-fill it. In other words, do not compress the insulation to make more fit: just fill it.

Quote:
Question 2: Since the floor is concrete, and is not connected to any other structures, I'm under the impression a floating floor is unnecessary. What should I be putting down on the concrete before I put hardwood floor?
Correct. There is no need at all to float your floor, it is very complex, and very expensive, to do it successfully, and you lose a lot of headroom, unnecessarily.

A good option for the final floor, is laminated flooring on top of a suitable underlay. There are some very nice looking options for that, these days. They go in fast and simple and they look great. They are also good acoustically.

Quote:
Is this something I want to look at?
No. Just lay your final flooring directly over the concrete. If the concrete is in bad shape, flaky, cracked, uneven, etc. the level it with suitable self-leveling cement, first.

Quote:
Do I want to put any other sound isolating materials over that? plywood? MLV? Anything else?
Not necessary, assuming you have a slab-on-grade floor.

Quote:
Question 3: My plan for the walls is Stucco, original 2x4 frame with 16" OC filled with R-13 pink fluffy insulation, 1" space, 2x6 frame with 24" OC filled with pink fluffy insulation, sealed MLV, 5/8" drywall, green glue, 5/8" drywall.
Forget the MLV. There is no need for that. It works, yes, but it is just mass, and it is very expensive mass! There's no other benefit from it when used as a wall layer, despite what some manufactures claim. There ARE some valid uses for it in studios, but this is not one of them. If you need more mass on your inner-leaf wall (as you probably will if you aim to have silent drums!), then just do a third layer of drywall with Green Glue.

Quote:
The ceiling will be slightly different because of weight constraints. But the same idea.
A studio isolation system is only as good as the weakest part. If your ceiling does not have the same isolation as the walls, then you are wasting money on the walls because the sound will just take the easy path out: through the ceiling. If you want to isolate drums, you are going to need some substantial mass on your ceiling, just like for the walls. If you have load limits up there, then you just need to use larger lumber for your inner-leaf ceiling joists. What size joists were you planning to install up there?

- Stuart -
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Old 12th January 2020
  #9
Holy buckets this is a lot of great info. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, and with helpful pictures. Very much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Assuming it is a typical thin sheet-metal or light wood panel door with gaps all around it, operated by some type of mechanical or electrical mechanism, then no, it is not a leaf. There's not enough mass in it for that, and the large air gaps all around also negate its being a leaf. So it is not a leaf, and cannot be used as part of your outer leaf. You will need to build an extension of the outer leaf around behind it, as in the photo sequence below. First the plan, then the actual implementation.

That said, the door is still part of the overall resonant system, and can still vibrate and resonate in sympathy with whatever is happening inside the studio, so it will need to be sealed up and damped as much as possible. Also seen in the photo below.
Ok. This makes sense, and the pictures helped. You used plywood in that photo to create the new outer leaf. Would sheetrock be better? Also, since that's the new outer leaf, when I construct my new inner frame/leaf, will there be more insulation in between the new outer leaf (plywood or drywall), and the studs of the new inner frame/leaf (as well as insulation inside the studs of the new frame/leaf)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
DO NOT add more mass to that door! Just leave it like it is, and put the mass on the wall, where it belongs.
Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
DO put insulation in the area between the door and the new sheathing on the framing. You need that cavity filled completely with something like Pink Fluffy or another suitable insulation material, to act as a damper on the resonances that would otherwise form in that cavity, robbing you of isolation. Fill the cavity completely, but don't over-fill it. In other words, do not compress the insulation to make more fit: just fill it.
Does the frame of the new outer leaf touch the door at all? I know we're filling the space with insulation, but does the actual wood frame touch at any point? Do we want it to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Correct. There is no need at all to float your floor, it is very complex, and very expensive, to do it successfully, and you lose a lot of headroom, unnecessarily.
I have since read more about floating floors and have learned what a floating floor actually is (when done correctly), and yeah, not only do I not need it, no way am I spending that kind of money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
A good option for the final floor, is laminated flooring on top of a suitable underlay. There are some very nice looking options for that, these days. They go in fast and simple and they look great. They are also good acoustically.

No. Just lay your final flooring directly over the concrete. If the concrete is in bad shape, flaky, cracked, uneven, etc. the level it with suitable self-leveling cement, first.
I was going to use bamboo hardwood flooring. I wanted to nail it down, but I don't know how that would work if i don't put anything under it. I know it can be "floated" on the concrete by just snapping the pieces together (similar to laminate floors)... but I worry with the traffic and constant gear coming/going that the floor boards might actually buckle and pop up.

Also, the cement in there is actually in pretty good condition, especially considering how old the garage is. So I'm good on that front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Forget the MLV. There is no need for that. It works, yes, but it is just mass, and it is very expensive mass! There's no other benefit from it when used as a wall layer, despite what some manufactures claim. There ARE some valid uses for it in studios, but this is not one of them. If you need more mass on your inner-leaf wall (as you probably will if you aim to have silent drums!), then just do a third layer of drywall with Green Glue.
Yeah, again, i've read a TON of threads since posting my original post, and have learned that MLV is not worth the expense. I have learned quite a bit in the last week or so, and I'm so far saving almost $5k by just getting the right materials (or rather, not getting the wrong ones).

I posted another question in a new thread, but I probably should have just asked it here. so I'll ask it again as it now is very relevant to this conversation.

Quote:
So in designing my drum rehearsal/practice studio, I am trying to achieve as much isolation as possible. 10 feet outside the room can get up to 115-120db. My inner leaf of a decoupled frame will be:

2x6 w/ 24 OC studs stuffed with R-19 insulation, 3/4" OSB, 5/8" drywall, Green glue, 5/8" drywall (all outer seems backer rod and caulked).

I currently have enough GG to use 3 tubes per sheet of drywall. My questions are if I want to go with another (3rd) layer of 5/8" drywall, should I...

1 - just add the 3rd layer to the wall, backer rod and seal it and be done.

2 - only use 2 tubes on the first drywall/GG/drywall sandwich, and purchase enough GG to apply 2 tubes to the 2nd drywall/GG/drywall sandwich...

3 - purchase enough green glue to use 3 tubes on the 2nd drywall/GG/drywall sandwich as well.

4 - do nothing, because the extra layer of drywall (either with GG or without) will not make enough of a difference to justify the cost?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
A studio isolation system is only as good as the weakest part. If your ceiling does not have the same isolation as the walls, then you are wasting money on the walls because the sound will just take the easy path out: through the ceiling. If you want to isolate drums, you are going to need some substantial mass on your ceiling, just like for the walls. If you have load limits up there, then you just need to use larger lumber for your inner-leaf ceiling joists. What size joists were you planning to install up there?

- Stuart -
I was planning on doing 2x6's for the entire inner frame... walls and ceilings. I was also planning on using the exact same materials on the ceiling as I am on the walls to make sure it was the same all the way around. I am going to lose considerable space in the room... but that doesn't bother me. Maximum isolation is my concern.

Stuart, thank you again for the detailed response.
Old 12th January 2020
  #10
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post

Assuming it is a typical thin sheet-metal or light wood panel door with gaps all around it, operated by some type of mechanical or electrical mechanism, then no, it is not a leaf. There's not enough mass in it for that, and the large air gaps all around also negate its being a leaf. So it is not a leaf, and cannot be used as part of your outer leaf. You will need to build an extension of the outer leaf around behind it, as in the photo sequence below. First the plan, then the actual implementation.

That said, the door is still part of the overall resonant system, and can still vibrate and resonate in sympathy with whatever is happening inside the studio, so it will need to be sealed up and damped as much as possible. Also seen in the photo below.
A quick google turned up weights for garage doors in the range of a sheet of drywall.

Veteran garage door quoted standard residential garage doors ranging from 75lbs to 95lbs ft/2.
If you take the (8'ร—7') 75lb uninsulated unit as example its 1.39 lbs ft/2. If you take the (8'ร—7) 95lbs insulated unit as example, its 1.70 lbs ft/2 both rounded to the nearest 100th.

According to soundproofing company's website 1/4" drywall is 1.2 lbs ft/2.
1/2" drywall 1.6 lbs ft/2.
5/8" drywall 2.2 lbs ft/2

5/8" plywood 1.5 lbs ft/2
3/4" plywood 1.9 lbs ft/2.

How is something close to the lbs/ft2 of 1/2" drywall or 5/8" plywood "not massive enough" to constitute a leaf?
Attached Thumbnails
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Old 12th January 2020
  #11
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Not really. You have the same goals. You said: "First, my goal here is to achieve a level of isolation so that my neighbor (about 20 feet away) can't hear me playing the drums. If total isolation of my kit is possible, that's my main goal." To completely isolate drums to be inaudible 20 feet away, that's what it takes. That's the reason I posted the link.

Assuming it is a typical thin sheet-metal or light wood panel door with gaps all around it, operated by some type of mechanical or electrical mechanism, then no, it is not a leaf. There's not enough mass in it for that, and the large air gaps all around also negate its being a leaf. So it is not a leaf, and cannot be used as part of your outer leaf. You will need to build an extension of the outer leaf around behind it, as in the photo sequence below. First the plan, then the actual implementation.

That said, the door is still part of the overall resonant system, and can still vibrate and resonate in sympathy with whatever is happening inside the studio, so it will need to be sealed up and damped as much as possible. Also seen in the photo below.

Exactly. In the photo sequence I posted, that new construction is now the outer leaf, with the door still in place beyond it.

DO NOT add more mass to that door! Just leave it like it is, and put the mass on the wall, where it belongs.

DO put insulation in the area between the door and the new sheathing on the framing. You need that cavity filled completely with something like Pink Fluffy or another suitable insulation material, to act as a damper on the resonances that would otherwise form in that cavity, robbing you of isolation. Fill the cavity completely, but don't over-fill it. In other words, do not compress the insulation to make more fit: just fill it.

Correct. There is no need at all to float your floor, it is very complex, and very expensive, to do it successfully, and you lose a lot of headroom, unnecessarily.

A good option for the final floor, is laminated flooring on top of a suitable underlay. There are some very nice looking options for that, these days. They go in fast and simple and they look great. They are also good acoustically.

No. Just lay your final flooring directly over the concrete. If the concrete is in bad shape, flaky, cracked, uneven, etc. the level it with suitable self-leveling cement, first.

Not necessary, assuming you have a slab-on-grade floor.

Forget the MLV. There is no need for that. It works, yes, but it is just mass, and it is very expensive mass! There's no other benefit from it when used as a wall layer, despite what some manufactures claim. There ARE some valid uses for it in studios, but this is not one of them. If you need more mass on your inner-leaf wall (as you probably will if you aim to have silent drums!), then just do a third layer of drywall with Green Glue.

A studio isolation system is only as good as the weakest part. If your ceiling does not have the same isolation as the walls, then you are wasting money on the walls because the sound will just take the easy path out: through the ceiling. If you want to isolate drums, you are going to need some substantial mass on your ceiling, just like for the walls. If you have load limits up there, then you just need to use larger lumber for your inner-leaf ceiling joists. What size joists were you planning to install up there?

- Stuart -
The problem with the pics and nice looking sketchup illustration is they depict a wall with sheathing on both sides. This is not how the op describes their wall plan which is:

"My plan for the walls is Stucco, original 2x4 frame with 16" OC filled with R-13 pink fluffy insulation, 1" space, 2x6 frame with 24" OC filled with pink fluffy insulation, sealed MLV, 5/8" drywall, green glue, 5/8" drywall."

There is no mention of sheathing on both sides of the outer shell. And even if there is, it would have to be removed to build the standard 2 leaf mam walls we love.

Your illustrations/pics show how to beef up what a "standard" wall where the garage door would be the weak link for isolation.

If you built another wall in front of that, that would be a 3 leaf system.

That's why the massive sheathing of choice needs to be combined with the the garage door, and meet or exceed the density of the outside walls stucco and sheathing ect. The fiberglass and Styrofoam I described are to pad out the door, and eliminate air spaces and gaps from the doors surface. This is so the sheathing has a flat, smooth surface to butt up against unifying the entire assembly as a single massive section of the outer leaf, with no funny rattles resonances or gaps within it.
Old 12th January 2020
  #12
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Quote:
Holy buckets this is a lot of great info. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond, and with helpful pictures. Very much appreciated.


Glad to be of help.

Quote:
You used plywood in that photo to create the new outer leaf. Would sheetrock be better?
It's OSB, not plywood. They look similar, but OSB has a few advantages. That's just the first layer: A sheet of drywall went on top of that, for additional mass, but I could not find any photos of that. It's the combined mass of the two layers, OSB plus drywall, that provide the mass that creates an extension of the outer leaf around behind the door.

It might not be clear from the images, but the door was first fixed in place with metal bridges, then the door mechanism was removed (as it was in the way of the place where the client is now building the mastering room I designed for him), before the isolation wall went up. The Tyvek is needed for moisture control: it keeps out liquid water while still allowing the wall to "breathe". We also improved the weather stripping around that door, to help keep the elements out. That's important.

Quote:
Also, since that's the new outer leaf, when I construct my new inner frame/leaf, will there be more insulation in between the new outer leaf (plywood or drywall), and the studs of the new inner frame/leaf (as well as insulation inside the studs of the new frame/leaf)
Yes, definitely! The insulation acts as a damper on the resonances that would form inside the wall cavity, and is very necessary. It also does other good things.

Quote:
Does the frame of the new outer leaf touch the door at all? I know we're filling the space with insulation, but does the actual wood frame touch at any point? Do we want it to?
No. The frame is clear of the door. It doesn't look like it in the photos, because of the camera angle, but there0s a gap of a couple of about an inch between the framing and the door surface. The studs in the "field" of the wall are turned sideways, to provide more clearance. Only the studs on the ends are placed normally. since the wall is not load-bearing, there's no problem doing that. The insulation in that gap, for both thermal and acosutic reasons. (This studio is in a hot, humid climate).

Quote:
I have since read more about floating floors and have learned what a floating floor actually is (when done correctly), and yeah, not only do I not need it, no way am I spending that kind of money.


Quote:
I was going to use bamboo hardwood flooring. I wanted to nail it down, but I don't know how that would work if i don't put anything under it. I know it can be "floated" on the concrete by just snapping the pieces together (similar to laminate floors)... but I worry with the traffic and constant gear coming/going that the floor boards might actually buckle and pop up.
Nailing into concrete is possible, with suitable nailers and nails, but I would not do that with this type of flooring. Just do it the way the manufacturer specifies.

This type of flooring is, as you mentioned, sometimes referred to as "floating floor", just not in the acoustic sense. Rather, in the sense it should NOT be attached to the underlying sub-floor, since it must remain separate, for a very good reason: it expands and contracts with changes in both temperature and humidity, so ti must be free to move very slightly. If you nailed it down, then it would NOT be able to do that, and in that case it WOULD probably "pop" and crack.

If you get a thick, high-traffic one, then you should not have any problems with it, with gear and people moving over it all the time. You want at least 10mm, preferably more. Do not get the cheaper thin ones, that are like 6 or 7mm thick. Those are not good for high traffic. But the thick ones are. As long as your slab is flat and smooth, and you use the right underlay, then it can be a great floor, both practically, aesthetically, and also acoustically.

Quote:
Also, the cement in there is actually in pretty good condition, especially considering how old the garage is. So I'm good on that front.
Great! Just check it for levelness and smoothness. Most laminate flooring comes with a spec sheet that tells you how flat and smooth it must be. It tells you what the maximum height variation can be over "x" distance. For example, it might say "No more than 2mm variation over 1 meter". So you'd need to get a steel straight edge at least one meter long, lay it on the floor, and see if there are any dips or peaks greater than 2mm. Move the straightedge around the floor at various places an various angles, to check it all over. Hopefully, you should be fine. Sometimes you can use a thicker underlay if the floor has slight unevenness: but check with the manufacturer. Worst case; you need a little leveling compound in some places, to smooth things over.

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Yeah, again, i've read a TON of threads since posting my original post, and have learned that MLV is not worth the expense. I have learned quite a bit in the last week or so, and I'm so far saving almost $5k by just getting the right materials (or rather, not getting the wrong ones).


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So in designing my drum rehearsal/practice studio, I am trying to achieve as much isolation as possible. 10 feet outside the room can get up to 115-120db
Tall order! 120 dBC inside a drum room is certainly about right. Getting that down to "inaudible" 10 feet on the other side of the wall is a Really Big Deal! That needs major isolation in your walls, ceiling, doors, windows, HVAC, and electrical. How quite do you want it at that location, ten feet away? It's 120 dB inside, sure, but what level do you need it to be out there?

Quote:
2x6 w/ 24 OC studs stuffed with R-19 insulation, 3/4" OSB, 5/8" drywall, Green glue, 5/8" drywall (all outer seems backer rod and caulked).
OK, you have some mass on there. A decent amount for normal isolation, but probably not enough for killing 120 dB down to silent....

Quote:
3 - purchase enough green glue to use 3 tubes on the 2nd drywall/GG/drywall sandwich as well.
You need very high isolation: this is what I would do. But you are also going to need a substantial air gap, and a ton of mass on the other leaf as well. Plus extreme care with sealing everything. Your HVAC silencers are also going to be huge and very heavy. You should take that into account early in the design, as they are going to take up a lot of space.

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I was planning on doing 2x6's for the entire inner frame... walls and ceilings. I was also planning on using the exact same materials on the ceiling as I am on the walls to make sure it was the same all the way around. I am going to lose considerable space in the room... but that doesn't bother me. Maximum isolation is my concern.
OK, that's smart! But do bare in mind that the flanking limit for a typical concrete floor is around 70 dB, so that's pretty much as good as it could possibly get. But for the typical home studio DIY-built, the realistic limit is more like 60 dB. You can't expect more than that, unless you have very deep pockets. 120 dBC inside, with 60 dB TL, means about 60 dB outside. Add some distance (maybe 20 feet) and that could be down to around 40-someting dB, which is probably within your legal limits (but you'd have to check your local noise regulations to be sure).

That's being realistic but optimistic. If you do everything right, then you could get around 55 to 60 dB isolation.

Your doors and windows are also going to be a Really Big Deal. Here's a couple of links that you might find useful, about building your own doors and windows for a high isolation studio site built door for high isolation . site built windows for high isolation . Those are from a similar case to yours: that guy teaches drums in his studio, so he needed extra high isolation. So you might find what he did to be useful in our case too.

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Stuart, thank you again for the detailed response.


- Stuart -
Old 12th January 2020
  #13
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Quote:
How is something close to the lbs/ft2 of 1/2" drywall or 5/8" plywood "not massive enough" to constitute a leaf?
Because it is not a leaf. There's no air-tight seals on it. Thus, no spring. So no MSM resonance.

- Stuart -
Old 12th January 2020
  #14
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Quote:
The problem with the pics and nice looking sketchup illustration is they depict a wall with sheathing on both sides.
No they do not, but thanks for guessing!

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Your illustrations/pics show how to beef up what a "standard" wall where the garage door would be the weak link for isolation.
No it does not, but thanks for guessing again!

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If you built another wall in front of that, that would be a 3 leaf system.
No it is not. Present tense. It is already built, and there is no 3-leaf effect there. It works exactly as designed. Not as guessed...

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The fiberglass and Styrofoam I described are to pad out the door,
Styrofoam is closed-cell, has virtually no mass, and thus no acosutic uses.

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and eliminate air spaces and gaps from the doors surface.
Why? What purpose does "eliminate air spaces and gaps from the doors surface" serve in an isolation wall?

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This is so the sheathing has a flat, smooth surface to butt up against unifying the entire assembly as a single massive section of the outer leaf,
No, it would not work like that. Partly because the Styrofoam has no mass, is very resilient, and is closed cell. The "sandwich" you describe would not work the way you are hoping it would.

On the other hand, the system shown above does actually work as designed. There's good isolation, and no 3rd leaf. You guessed wrong. Sorry!


- Stuart -
Old 13th January 2020
  #15
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Because it is not a leaf. There's no air-tight seals on it. Thus, no spring. So no MSM resonance.

- Stuart -
Typical residential interior drywall is not air tight, does that also not count as a leaf.?
Old 13th January 2020
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
Typical residential interior drywall is not air tight,
Really?

You should probably do some research on how the spring works in an MSM system...

- Stuart -
Old 13th January 2020
  #17
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
So your saying the garage in your drawings and pics have no exterior sheathing? There is certainly interior sheathing. It would be a pretty unique garage that had no external sheathing.

That's my point, the OP stated his does have exterior sheathing (stucco). So if he follows your pics with the interior sheathing in tact, and sheathing blocking the door on the inside, then builds a new wall hes got a 3 leaf system. You keep partial quoting, and either mis- understanding or mis-presenting what im saying. If the op does what you depict, and builds his new walls in front as he described, it will be 3 leaf. He can't have interior sheathing like your pics, and also build new inner iso walls, without it being 3 leafs.

In other words your pictures dont show a room within a room (mam) style construction like the op is describing they want to do. Considering theres light shining thru the garage in the pics, and garage mounting, your depicting interior sheathing. The un-shown outer sheathing would exist in a typical garage, and does exist in the OP case.

The Styrofoam is not for acoustic purpose. Its simply to give the drywall something smooth to butt up against. To "pad out" the door in construction terms. Otherwise the drywall would butt up right against the door and any ridges, windows, panels, ect, would create little air pockets. The "sandwich" i describe would absolutely work. Outside to in: Door->insulation filling imperfections->Styrofoam->drywall->insulated framing. This effectively makes the door both massive, airtight, and part of a single outer leaf. Then the air space and new iso wall goes in front. The only difference between this and a standard assembly is the garage door (and padding) is part of the outer leaf.

Rod Gervias reccomends Styrofoam for padding out areas that have protrusions, which need added mass. For instance massing up a basement ceiling where nails stick thru from the floor above. Its role is simply to provide a uniform surface to press the mass against.

The isolation is gained from the drywall sheathing part of the sandwich. Which does work. your claim about the sandwich not working seems to fly in the face of the very principle of a massive 2 leaf assembly. Of course it works.

Basically if the op flipped your door plug around, so the mass was on the outside (butting up against the door), exposed insulation on the inside, it would be fine to build the new inner leaf for a MAM as the op wants. (Again ignoring any interior sheathingin your pics)

The issue again is that if the op follows your plan from blocking the door as pictured, and builds his new walls as described in their post, it will create a 3 leaf system.

Your pics are not a 3 leaf system because there is no decoupled inner leaf. Its either a two leaf (sheathing on both sides) or the world's strangest garage (sheathing on interior only). This may be where your confusion lies. I was not saying showed a 3 leaf system, rather, if the op follows the pic, and builds walls as they posted originally, it would be a 3 leaf system.

You seemed to ignore they stated they were intending a MAM system that already had outer sheathing.
Old 13th January 2020
  #18
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Really?

You should probably do some research on how the spring works in an MSM system...

- Stuart -
MSM has nothing to do with the fact that typical residential drywall is both not airtight, and is a leaf. Otherwise we would just leave existing drywall mounted and build new iso walls in front, which is clearly not the best.
Old 13th January 2020
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
MSM has nothing to do with the fact that typical residential drywall is both not airtight, and is a leaf. Otherwise we would just leave existing drywall mounted and build new iso walls in front, which is clearly not the best.
What makes you think that normal residential drywall is not sealed sufficiently well for the air behind it to act as a spring? The literature shows that your assumption is not true.

(On the other hand, the garage door in the images and design I posted above, is NOT a leaf. Despite your assumptions and guesses, I was very careful to ensure that it isn't ).

Edited to add the image below: A test of a typical fully coupled 2-leaf residential wall, showing clear MSM resonance:

Please explain why you think this test is not true. Who faked it? Why? You say that such a wall should not exhibit MSM resonance, but there it is, clear as daylight...
Attached Thumbnails
Question On Converting Garage To Studio/Rehearsal Space-coupled-2-leaf-wall-showing-msm-resonance.jpg  

Last edited by Soundman2020; 13th January 2020 at 10:17 PM..
Old 13th January 2020
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
So your saying the garage in your drawings and pics have no exterior sheathing? There is certainly interior sheathing. It would be a pretty unique garage that had no external sheathing.
Keep guessing. There is no interior sheathing.

Quote:
That's my point, the OP stated his does have exterior sheathing (stucco). So if he follows your pics with the interior sheathing in tact, and sheathing blocking the door on the inside, then builds a new wall hes got a 3 leaf system.
What he has is no different to what I did with this specific studio, and have also done with many others.

But do keep guessing....

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You keep partial quoting, and either mis- understanding or mis-presenting what im saying.
I'm simply allowing you to dig your hole deeper and deeper, to see how far you will go... And you keep on taking wild, ignorant guesses about how the studio pictured was actually built! You seem to have an amazing ability to discern exactly the entire design and construction of the complete studio, based on a couple of photos that were taken early on in the build. In fact, that isolation wall was the very first part of the studio that was built. Yet you are able to figure out from that exactly how the rest of it was built. Incredible. You should set up a tent with a crystal ball at the next country fair, and charge five dollars for a reading... Did you like my choice of speakers for this room? What about the side wall diffusers? What do you think of those? That's my own design, by the way. I think they work rather well. What do you think? I mean, since you can see exactly how the studio was designed and built from one single photo, you must also be able to see the speakers and the diffusers....

Quote:
In other words your pictures dont show a room within a room (mam) style construction like the op is describing they want to do. Considering theres light shining thru the garage in the pics, and garage mounting, your depicting interior sheathing. The un-shown outer sheathing would exist in a typical garage, and does exist in the OP case.
Keep on guessing... maybe you'll get it right at some point. Every single guess so far is wrong...

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The Styrofoam is not for acoustic purpose. Its simply to give the drywall something smooth to butt up against. To "pad out" the door in construction terms.
So you would build an acoustic isolation system where part of the system has no acoustic uses? Strange.

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Otherwise the drywall would butt up right against the door and any ridges, windows, panels, ect, would create little air pockets.
You mean little air pocket like those inside a wall done with Green Glue? Or more like the little air pockets in a dual-stud MSM wall that has only the stud bays filled, but leaves an empty air pocket in the middle? Maybe you could be more specific about the type of air pockets you are worried about here, and why you think they are a problem...

Quote:
The "sandwich" i describe would absolutely work. Outside to in: Door->insulation filling imperfections->Styrofoam->drywall->insulated framing. This effectively makes the door both massive, airtight, and part of a single outer leaf.
No it does not. You might think it does, but in reality it does not. The Styrofoam is a useless and unnecessary element, taking up space where a useful and effective element could be.

Quote:
Then the air space and new iso wall goes in front. The only difference between this and a standard assembly is the garage door (and padding) is part of the outer leaf.
Nope! There's no mass nor mechanical rigidity in the Styrofoam that could somehow "join" the mass of the door to the mass of leaf. Sorry. It would not work in the way you think it would. It would still act as two separate masses... And the Styrofoam could conceivable act as a stiff spring (it is rather resilient, you know): Thus, your method could potentially create a 3-leaf system, where you were attempting to avoid one!

Quote:
Rod Gervias reccomends Styrofoam for padding out areas that have protrusions, which need added mass. For instance massing up a basement ceiling where nails stick thru from the floor above. Its role is simply to provide a uniform surface to press the mass against.
Oh brother.... That's an entirely different concept.

Quote:
Basically if the op flipped your door plug around, so the mass was on the outside (butting up against the door), exposed insulation on the inside, it would be fine to build the new inner leaf for a MAM as the op wants. (Again ignoring any interior sheathingin your pics)
There is none. And no, that would not work they way you think it would. Sorry.

Quote:
The issue again is that if the op follows your plan from blocking the door as pictured, and builds his new walls as described in their post, it will create a 3 leaf system.
No it will not. It did not in this case, not in any of the other cases I have done in similar fashion, so it won't in his case either, if he does it correctly.

Quote:
Your pics are not a 3 leaf system because there is no decoupled inner leaf. Its either a two leaf (sheathing on both sides) or the world's strangest garage (sheathing on interior only).
Keep guessing. But polish your crystal ball first: it seems to be rather cloudy in there! No clear vision at all...

Quote:
This may be where your confusion lies.
No. The confusion is entirely on your end. You did not design the studio in question, you did not build it, you did not test it, you have no idea how it performs. You are simply making a whole series of invalid guesses about how it was built, and instead of just asking to clarify some of the points, you instead take great pains to belittle the entire thing, because you assume it was built in some strange and unusual manner that isn't even suggested by the photos.

To be clear, the SketchUp model and the photos are ONLY about the isolation wall in front of that garage door. That's all. They do not show any other aspect of the design or construction. You are assuming that, because you don't see things you wanted to see in there, that therefore they do not exist. That's your mistake, not mine. Don't assume: ask. If you are confused about some aspect of what you think is there, then just ask! Don't make a huge scandal about how it must be wrong and terrible and not work, trying at the same time to imply that your flawed method is much better...

Quote:
You seemed to ignore they stated they were intending a MAM system that already had outer sheathing.
I ignore nothing. That is, in fact, exactly what the design and photos show....

- Stuart -

Last edited by Soundman2020; 13th January 2020 at 10:26 PM..
Old 13th January 2020
  #21
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Don't do it.

It won't work unless you are prepared to spend 10's of thousands.

You will severely piss off your neighbors (I guarantee it) and have to shut it down. Until you do, you'll never be able to relax. And then you will have blown whatever money you spent.

People need to understand, soundproofing, REAL soundproofing is a BIG undertaking and if you have a limit to your budget, don't bother.

It's a crappy thing to do to your neighbors, (I used to do it to mine when I was like 18) you cannot run a rehearsal studio out of your garage unless the garage is a mile away from the next house. A sandbox floor, insulation or mattress packed walls, none of it will matter,

Spare yourself and the neighbors the trouble and cost, go get a space that is intended for loud noise.
Old 13th January 2020
  #22
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
What makes you think that normal residential drywall is not sealed sufficiently well for the air behind it to act as a spring? The literature shows that your assumption is not true.

(On the other hand, the garage door in the images and design I posted above, is NOT a leaf. Despite your assumptions and guesses, I was very careful to ensure that it isn't ).

Edited to add the image below: A test of a typical fully coupled 2-leaf residential wall, showing clear MSM resonance:

Please explain why you think this test is not true. Who faked it? Why? You say that such a wall should not exhibit MSM resonance, but there it is, clear as daylight...
I said it is a leaf that and is not completely air tight.

Your saying a garage door which is as massive as a 1/2" of drywall, and also not completely air tight, is not a leaf.

There is no reason to treat door as anything but a part of the mass on the outer leaf of the MAM system the op is proposing. If he follows your picture and builds their new walls as they proposed it will go

garage door(mass)--> insulated cavity + mass (the osb in pic) -> air space-> insulated cavity + mass (new drywall).

That creates 2 cavities instead of one. Which would be akin to building a decoupled studio in front of a typical wall with sheathing on both sides.

If the mass is on the doors side, making the door part of the mass layers, and build a decoupled studio wall in front. You get MAM. Not MAMAM as they would if they follow your picture.
Old 13th January 2020
  #23
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Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Keep guessing. There is no interior sheathing.
No interior sheathing? What's the drywall and osb then? There are no exposed wall studs in either the drawing or the pics. except for the new studs in the garage door frame.

No guesswork im looking at the picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
What he has is no different to what I did with this specific studio, and have also done with many others.

But do keep guessing....
Again the OP doesn't have sheathing on both sides of the garage.

Making the same mistakes many times doesn't make it correct. But keep ignoring the MAM assembly the OP is proposing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
I'm simply allowing you to dig your hole deeper and deeper, to see how far you will go... And you keep on taking wild, ignorant guesses about how the studio pictured was actually built! You seem to have an amazing ability to discern exactly the entire design and construction of the complete studio, based on a couple of photos that were taken early on in the build. In fact, that isolation wall was the very first part of the studio that was built. Yet you are able to figure out from that exactly how the rest of it was built. Incredible. You should set up a tent with a crystal ball at the next country fair, and charge five dollars for a reading... Did you like my choice of speakers for this room? What about the side wall diffusers? What do you think of those? That's my own design, by the way. I think they work rather well. What do you think? I mean, since you can see exactly how the studio was designed and built from one single photo, you must also be able to see the speakers and the diffusers....

Keep on guessing... maybe you'll get it right at some point. Every single guess so far is wrong...
Again what you posted may be ok for the studios you built.

My comments are directly relating your pics to the OPs proposed MAM walls. For that purpose the mass is on the wrong side in the pics. The door should be massed up, with open joists and insulation exposed to the interior. Then the op can build their new decoupled walls in front of that.

The point you keep dodging is the pics you posted, show sheathing on the interior of the wall. That is incorrect for the OP to attain MAM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
So you would build an acoustic isolation system where part of the system has no acoustic uses? Strange.



Nope! There's no mass nor mechanical rigidity in the Styrofoam that could somehow "join" the mass of the door to the mass of leaf. Sorry. It would not work in the way you think it would. It would still act as two separate masses... And the Styrofoam could conceivable act as a stiff spring (it is rather resilient, you know): Thus, your method could potentially create a 3-leaf system, where you were attempting to avoid one!
The Styrofoam is not the integral part, is was an example of what could be used to pad out something you need to mass up.

So its ok to use Styrofoam to pad out the outer shell of a basement but not garage when massing up? The garage door is similar in mass to floor sheathing, and the opening is just a wider gap than a floor joist bay.

Your saying rods method for padding something you need to mass up is wrong?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post

No. The confusion is entirely on your end. You did not design the studio in question, you did not build it, you did not test it, you have no idea how it performs. You are simply making a whole series of invalid guesses about how it was built, and instead of just asking to clarify some of the points, you instead take great pains to belittle the entire thing, because you assume it was built in some strange and unusual manner that isn't even suggested by the photos.
You keep obsessing with your studio build in the pic, and ignoring what the OPs studio. Im specifically talking about the op studio, their MAM proposal, and why to maintain MAM, they need to have the mass on the exterior side, not in the middle as it would be if the pic was followed verbatim, and then the op built the rest of the structure as they cited in their first post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
To be clear, the SketchUp model and the photos are ONLY about the isolation wall in front of that garage door. That's all. They do not show any other aspect of the design or construction. You are assuming that, because you don't see things you wanted to see in there, that therefore they do not exist. That's your mistake, not mine. Don't assume: ask. If you are confused about some aspect of what you think is there, then just ask! Don't make a huge scandal about how it must be wrong and terrible and not work, trying at the same time to imply that your flawed method is much better...

- Stuart -
Again not about your studio build. Its about the op putting their mass in the proper location. A simple fundementals concept that requires no guess work. Mass air Mass.

One thing my crystal didn't show me was my two of my builds would be heard on top 10 records a few years back.

Who would have guessed?
Old 14th January 2020
  #24
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Quote:
It's a crappy thing to do to your neighbors, (I used to do it to mine when I was like 18) you cannot run a rehearsal studio out of your garage unless the garage is a mile away from the next house. A sandbox floor, insulation or mattress packed walls, none of it will matter,
Wrong. So very wrong. It is entirely possible to get good isolation from a garage, if it is done properly. It happens all the time... when people do what the OP is doing, and get good advice on how to do it.

Just because you were unable to do it when you were 18, does not mean that other people are doomed to follow your failure. When done properly, it is completely possible. Many people HAVE done it. As long as the isolation system is designed correctly, and built correctly, there is no problem.

- Stuart -
Old 14th January 2020
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle P. Gushue View Post
I said it is a leaf that and is not completely air tight.
Yes you do keep on saying that, but you don't provide any proof. I gave you an example of such a wall being tested in a reputable acoustic test lab, and it clearly exhibits MSM resonance that can only happen if there is a good air spring.... how do you explain that, when you claim there is no air spring in such walls?

Quote:
Your saying a garage door which is as massive as a 1/2" of drywall, and also not completely air tight, is not a leaf.
Yes, in general. And yes, in the specific case of the images I posted.

Quote:
There is no reason to treat door as anything but a part of the mass on the outer leaf of the MAM system the op is proposing
.

Quote:
...That creates 2 cavities instead of one. Which would be akin to building a decoupled studio in front of a typical wall with sheathing on both sides.
No it does not, but do feel free to keep on guessing...

Quote:
If the mass is on the doors side, making the door part of the mass layers,
Wrong again!

Quote:
There are no exposed wall studs in either the drawing or the pics. except for the new studs in the garage door frame.
Amazing.... Your eagle eye seems to be failing you, as you completely missed the glaring clue, visible in the photo.... take another look, more carefully this time, and see if you can figure it out. Even after I gave you multiple hints, you failed to check the photos, and see if maybe you are wrong...

Like I said, if you don't understand something, just ask: Instead of inventing a whole fabrication about why the photos are wrong, just ask. Or maybe just take a close look...

Quote:
Again the OP doesn't have sheathing on both sides of the garage.
Neither does the studio in the photo.... Like I said, the situation is the same. You are just too blinded by your ignorance and your own agenda, to see it.

Quote:
Making the same mistakes many times doesn't make it correct.
And yet, there you are, making the same mistake many times...

Quote:
Again what you posted may be ok for the studios you built.
Yes it is. And also for the OP's studio, if he does it the same way.

Quote:
My comments are directly relating your pics to the OPs proposed MAM walls. For that purpose the mass is on the wrong side in the pics.
No it isn't. Because you are not understanding what you are looking at, even though the clues are very visible.... When there is no air spring, there is no MSM.

Quote:
The door should be massed up, with open joists and insulation exposed to the interior. Then the op can build their new decoupled walls in front of that.
Nice try, but wrong.

Quote:
The point you keep dodging is the pics you posted, show sheathing on the interior of the wall.
Look again: there is no sheathing there. There is no air spring. Thus, there is no MSM.

Quote:
The Styrofoam is not the integral part, is was an example of what could be used to pad out something you need to mass up.
So you would use something that is not an integral part of the system, in a location where you could use something that IS an integral part o the system? A strange way to build an acoustic system....

Quote:
So its ok to use Styrofoam to pad out the outer shell of a basement but not garage when massing up? The garage door is similar in mass to floor sheathing, and the opening is just a wider gap than a floor joist bay.
You completely missed the reason why Rid suggested using THIN styrofoam in that situation, which has nothing at all to do with a garage door. You seem to be good at missing key points in things you see in books and photos....

Quote:
Your saying rods method for padding something you need to mass up is wrong?
I'm saying that it is not relevant to a garage door. See if you can figure out why.

Quote:
You keep obsessing with your studio build in the pic, and ignoring what the OPs studio.
It's the exact same situation in both cases, which is why I chose it and posted it. I could have chosen other examples where are different, but what would be the point of that? I chose one that's the same.

Quote:
A simple fundementals concept that requires no guess work. Mass air Mass.
Most acousticians prefer the term "Mass-Spring-Mass", because it better describes the actual principle of physics on which it is based. Air along does not make a spring, and a spring is what you need to make the system work. MAM is not wrong: it's just incomplete. MSM is a better term. Maybe that is what is confusing you here: you assume that, just because there is air, there is also a spring. Not correct. You can have air without it being a spring. And you can also have a spring without it being air (such as, for example, when you jam a pad of thick Styrofoam between the door and the leaf behind it...)

If there is no spring, or no mass, then there is no MSM. Just like in the photos and design I posted. In the case you keep on proposing to "prove" your point, that of the typical house wall, there IS a spring and there IS mass, so it is an MSM system... as shown by the data I showed from a laboratory test of such a wall. And as shown by numerous field tests of such walls, in the real world. It is true in the lab, and true in reality.

You really should take a close look at what I posted, to figure out why there is no air spring in there...


- Stuart -
Old 15th January 2020
  #26
@ Soundman2020

When building the new inner frame, do you install blocking boards in between the studs? Part of me thinks this is good for structural reasons, also helping with fire blocking. But part of me thinks its bad because you're putting more studs in the wall, and also, if I'm using OSB as my first sheathing layer, that should be plenty of structural strength to the wall.
Old 16th January 2020
  #27
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Quote:
do you install blocking boards in between the studs?
By "blocking boards", do you mean what some people called "noggins" and others call "bracing"? In other words, horizontal members that run between the studs, part way up the wall?

If that's what you are talking about, then you could use them, but we didn't do that here. Those are useful for providing nailing surfaces for the edges of the panels, but we went a different way in this case, as you can see if you zoom in on the final image. The OSB edges are simply glued and caulked, and there's a second layer going over that (drywall), with Green Glue in between, plus there's extra studs in there too... So there's plenty of support there for the sheathing. This was done for acoustic reasons, not structural reasons.

But you are right: I would not recommend doing this method on a structural (load-bearing) wall... However, this wall isn't. For typical studio walls, yes, you would definitely use noggins in the normal way.

Quote:
if I'm using OSB as my first sheathing layer, that should be plenty of structural strength to the wall.
Right! There's no load on this wall: it doesn't support anything above it, and there's no lateral forces on it from the ends, nor any other forces: It is just standing there, without any loads on it. So it's fine this way... for THIS case.

- Stuart -
Old 16th January 2020
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
By "blocking boards", do you mean what some people called "noggins" and others call "bracing"? In other words, horizontal members that run between the studs, part way up the wall?
Yes, exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
But you are right: I would not recommend doing this method on a structural (load-bearing) wall... However, this wall isn't. For typical studio walls, yes, you would definitely use noggins in the normal way.
I meant for standard studio walls. Like, when I'm building the framing for my inner leaf, Do I want to use "noggins" in between the studs. I take it the answer is yes.

Also, I'm putting sheetrock in between the studs of the outer leaf (stucco) to add mass to it. Should I be putting backer rod and caulking the gap in between the drywall and studs? I will be completely sealing the inner leaf, so I want to know if sealing the joints around the drywall inside the studs of the outer leaf is worth the effort. Am I gaining anything from doing this?

Thanks!

Last edited by Jag94; 19th January 2020 at 12:33 AM.. Reason: adding more info
Old 25th January 2020
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Kyle P. Gushue's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Yes you do keep on saying that, but you don't provide any proof. I gave you an example of such a wall being tested in a reputable acoustic test lab, and it clearly exhibits MSM resonance that can only happen if there is a good air spring.... how do you explain that, when you claim there is no air spring in such walls?

Yes, in general. And yes, in the specific case of the images I posted.

.

No it does not, but do feel free to keep on guessing...

Wrong again!

Amazing.... Your eagle eye seems to be failing you, as you completely missed the glaring clue, visible in the photo.... take another look, more carefully this time, and see if you can figure it out. Even after I gave you multiple hints, you failed to check the photos, and see if maybe you are wrong...

Like I said, if you don't understand something, just ask: Instead of inventing a whole fabrication about why the photos are wrong, just ask. Or maybe just take a close look...

Neither does the studio in the photo.... Like I said, the situation is the same. You are just too blinded by your ignorance and your own agenda, to see it.

And yet, there you are, making the same mistake many times...

Yes it is. And also for the OP's studio, if he does it the same way.

No it isn't. Because you are not understanding what you are looking at, even though the clues are very visible.... When there is no air spring, there is no MSM.

Nice try, but wrong.

Look again: there is no sheathing there. There is no air spring. Thus, there is no MSM.

So you would use something that is not an integral part of the system, in a location where you could use something that IS an integral part o the system? A strange way to build an acoustic system....

You completely missed the reason why Rid suggested using THIN styrofoam in that situation, which has nothing at all to do with a garage door. You seem to be good at missing key points in things you see in books and photos....

I'm saying that it is not relevant to a garage door. See if you can figure out why.

It's the exact same situation in both cases, which is why I chose it and posted it. I could have chosen other examples where are different, but what would be the point of that? I chose one that's the same.

Most acousticians prefer the term "Mass-Spring-Mass", because it better describes the actual principle of physics on which it is based. Air along does not make a spring, and a spring is what you need to make the system work. MAM is not wrong: it's just incomplete. MSM is a better term. Maybe that is what is confusing you here: you assume that, just because there is air, there is also a spring. Not correct. You can have air without it being a spring. And you can also have a spring without it being air (such as, for example, when you jam a pad of thick Styrofoam between the door and the leaf behind it...)

If there is no spring, or no mass, then there is no MSM. Just like in the photos and design I posted. In the case you keep on proposing to "prove" your point, that of the typical house wall, there IS a spring and there IS mass, so it is an MSM system... as shown by the data I showed from a laboratory test of such a wall. And as shown by numerous field tests of such walls, in the real world. It is true in the lab, and true in reality.

You really should take a close look at what I posted, to figure out why there is no air spring in there...


- Stuart -
soundproofing - inbetween studs??

Rod Gervias:

"A leaf is each solid panel in any particular assembly - hopefully this would be either face of a 2 leaf assembly in most cases - however - it is the panels regardless of location - so you could have more than 2 leafs in any particular assembly depending on how a space is either constructed of sub-divided.

Rod"


This shows garage door is a leaf. Its a panel, and has the mass of a sheet of drywall. Since we agree that a typical household wall, is not airtight and is a leaf, there is no room to interpret a garage door as a "not leaf". Its rare that a house wall would be constructed as thoroughly as a lab test, and the lab test made no mention of the common penetrations in a wall from things like pipes and outlets and switches. These are commonly flush mounted and not air sealed or mass matched.

Over ten years in construction and ive never seen drywall installed per USG spec air sealed, with backer rod and caulking. Commercial or residential. It would be a specialized case where you would see this.

So, again your reasoning that the massive panel isn't a leaf because its not 100% sealed, is just not right. Your interpretation is wrong.

Your door plug creates a 3 leaf system when a new wall is built in front.

As far as the pics go, whatever semantic game your playing is laughable.

If that's not sheathing, what is it? Its certainly not the insulated, exposed joist wall frame that is the outer leaf of a two leaf system. Since the exterior wall needs to be sheathed to function, the interior must be open and unsheathed. Your pictures do not show this. No matter how close one looks, they wont find an unsheathed, exposed joist wall cavity.

Aside from that even if the pics were proper, your plug goes leaf, insulated cavity, leaf. This leaves no room for further walls in front without increasing the leaf count.

If your idea was an effective solution we would leave existing drywall on typical walls sheathed on both sides, then build the new wall in front... We (people who build real studios, properly) don't do that. We remove the drywall from one side (often the interior side) to build a proper two leaf MAM assembly just like in Rods book, and many many others.

We dont invent our own reasoning for leaving the existing drywall.

The garage door is equally effective as a leaf as a regular old piece of drywall. And should be treated as part of the existing exterior sheathing, because in essence, thats exactly what it is. It just happens to open and close.


When adding mass, the principle does not change because it is a door as opposed to a floor deck, or wall. So while the techniques may vary, in this case there is no fundemental difference to using a Styrofoam sheet to handle protrusions on a door, than protrusions on a wooden deck.

Further, the door needs to be sealed to be effective sonically, and structurally, to keep elements and critters from breaching into the innards of the wall.

Sealing will make it air and water tight. This makes your "not MSM" argument null and void.

Your proposition is simply incorrect.

There's no guess work here. But certainly skewed interpretations on your side. As you know from other threads we see eye to eye on some things, so this is not personal. It is however a matter of fact that what you propose for a door plug will create a three leaf system as soon as the op builds a wall in front and covers it with drywall. I don't have to guess its incorrect, i know it is.
Old 5th February 2020
  #30
@ Kyle P. Gushue and @ Soundman2020

Thank you guys for continuing to contribute to this thread. Having people to bounce ideas off of and ask questions to WHILE doing the work is extremely valuable. I appreciate both of you taking time out of your days to contribute.

There is obviously a difference of opinion on the garage door debate. I appreciate you guys staying "relatively" civil while going back and forth, and respectfully request that we keep it that way.

As someone who is new to this and is absorbing a LOT of information from multiple sources, both of your ideas, to me, sound like they will work. And in reality, I think either solution will work, albeit maybe one more than the other. I have been combing threads here on gearslutz, as well as on John Sayers' forum, and I am seeing more instances of the type of garage door solutions like the one Kyle has presented. Specifically this THREAD. The part where he gets to the garage door is around page 20 I believe. The idea is sealing the garage door, and having it become part of the outer leaf. He mentions that he did achieve the desired amount of isolation towards the end of his 32 page studio build thread, so I guess it worked.

There are a lot of threads and links to even more forums about the garage door debate, and there is a lot of unknowns and experimentation. So maybe there is more than one way to skin this cat.
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