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FR vs Waterfall chart for analyzing room measreuments
Old 13th September 2019
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 View Post
I actually like to use the analogy of a 50 yard dash.

A 6 (or 7) figure CR is like a $3000 pair of the best running shoes out there.

A more humbly designed CR, yet still meeting very high standards, is like a $300 pair of running shoes.

In both of these cases a designer was likely involved from the very beginning.

Then you have the murky DIY CR build category, where most of the knowledge was garnered from the internet, and the build itself was likely done by someone who can barely drive a straight nail with a hammer. In 99.9% of these cases the runner has each foot encased in a 50 pound block of cement, but he doesn't even know it. He completely underestimates the gravity of the situation he is up against -- that being the physics of sound dispersion within a contained space for which the intended purpose is music production/mixing/mastering. Sad but true, especially once you understand the complexity of the subject which IMO is 100X more complicated than anything to do with actual recording, production, or gear !

In cases #1 and #2 , a slightly more talented runner will easily win the race with the $300 pair of running shoes. That $2700 difference in price is no match for the difference in physical abilities/talent between the two runners. But even the most gifted and talented runner in the world would lose the race against a decrepit 100 year old man if his feet are encased in 100 pounds of cement. He has already lost the race before the starting gun even fires, and just falls flat on his face desperately trying to drag those blocks of cement along in a hopelessly futile effort !

All of this can be summed up in a single sentence: You cannot mix what you cannot hear.
I like that analogy, but i do believe if a diy'er takes the time to learn and actually listen when the experts speak they can get pro results, maybe not Thomas's level (but thats more budgetary), without hiring a pro designer.
Old 13th September 2019
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
I think it means you cant cut corners and expect to win the race, but i know very little about nascar, and they do use a round track, so...... idk
Where am I cutting corners?
Old 13th September 2019
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
You're like a guy who wants his racing car to have 3 wheels and is endlessly asking how he can get the checkered flag without having to use that 4-th wheel.
I guess I will take that as a compliment
Old 13th September 2019
  #94
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 View Post
I actually like to use the analogy of a 50 yard dash.

A 6 (or 7) figure CR is like a $3000 pair of the best running shoes out there.

A more humbly designed CR, yet still meeting very high standards, is like a $300 pair of running shoes.

In both of these cases a designer was likely involved from the very beginning.

Then you have the murky DIY CR build category, where most of the knowledge was garnered from the internet, and the build itself was likely done by someone who can barely drive a straight nail with a hammer. In 99.9% of these cases the runner has each foot encased in a 50 pound block of cement, but he doesn't even know it. He completely underestimates the gravity of the situation he is up against -- that being the physics of sound dispersion within a contained space for which the intended purpose is music production/mixing/mastering. Sad but true, especially once you understand the complexity of the subject which IMO is 100X more complicated than anything to do with actual recording, production, or gear !

In cases #1 and #2 , a slightly more talented runner will easily win the race with the $300 pair of running shoes. That $2700 difference in price is no match for the difference in physical abilities/talent between the two runners. But even the most gifted and talented runner in the world would lose the race against a decrepit 100 year old man if his feet are encased in 100 pounds of cement. He has already lost the race before the starting gun even fires, and just falls flat on his face desperately trying to drag those blocks of cement along in a hopelessly futile effort !

All of this can be summed up in a single sentence: You cannot mix what you cannot hear.
We do the best we can
Old 13th September 2019
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
I like that analogy, but i do believe if a diy'er takes the time to learn and actually listen when the experts speak they can get pro results, maybe not Thomas's level (but thats more budgetary), without hiring a pro designer.
I like what you say. It is clear that some people feel that because they know something (acoustics) they like to think they are indespensible and that one cannot achieve greatness without their aid. The ego has "modes" too!
Old 13th September 2019
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camomiletea View Post
Where am I cutting corners?
Idk, i havent been following the thread from the beginning.

I do know that you have some ligitimate experts trying to help you and if you follow their advice to the "t", they can help you get the best results possible for your room. That could entail a bit of rearranging, replacing treatment/furnature, etc, but there is no malintent on anyones part who is donating their time and knowledge to help you.
Old 13th September 2019
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camomiletea View Post
I like what you say. It is clear that some people feel that because they know something (acoustics) they like to think they are indespensible and that one cannot achieve greatness without their aid. The ego has "modes" too!
It took me about two years to learn and relearn the necessary knowledge to design and successfully build my personal space, and i still get my mind blown frequently. A great deal of ego swallowing was done on my end. The more i learn, the more i realize how much i took as fact was wrong. Imagine being an expert and easily seeing that the person you are trying to help doesnt know didly squat about acoustics, yet they try to argue their misinformed point. Its frustrating for them. So if they seem to have an ego, its likely they are frustrated their point is being missed.
Old 13th September 2019
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
I like that analogy, but i do believe if a diy'er takes the time to learn and actually listen when the experts speak they can get pro results, maybe not Thomas's level (but thats more budgetary), without hiring a pro designer.
Yes, but you are the exception to the rule. You actually did a hard flush mount !

"Pro" to me simply means that the mixes translate outside of the CR without endless revisions, guess work, etc. Plus being able to truly study great mixes from the past, and then A/B your work to that knowing what you are hearing is the truth.
Old 13th September 2019
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sage691 View Post
Yes, but you are the exception to the rule. You actually did a hard flush mount !

"Pro" to me simply means that the mixes translate outside of the CR without endless revisions, guess work, etc. Plus being able to truly study great mixes from the past, and then A/B your work to that knowing what you are hearing is the truth.
Lol, all the pros flush mount. Why wouldn't i?
Old 13th September 2019
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camomiletea View Post
40cm thick bass traps are insufficient? Yes i have heard the dogma of flush mounting but I have also heard that it can be done this way with good results
Maybe, instead of concentrating on the in this case trivial microphone type, we should comment on this remark of the OP. Where did he hear this?

- Anhanced Ego -
Old 13th September 2019
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
Maybe, instead of concentrating on the in this case trivial microphone type, we should comment on this remark of the OP. Where did he hear this?

- Anhanced Ego -
Maybe you should.
Old 13th September 2019
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
Maybe, instead of concentrating on the in this case trivial microphone type, we should comment on this remark of the OP. Where did he hear this?

- Anhanced Ego -
Which part? 40cm bass traps are sufficient? That comes from companies who want to sell "bass traps" but can't ship a 900+mm trap in the mail. So they convince consumers that 4inches of rigid fiber is just as good. Then people learn that fluffy fiber is needed to trap bass, but dont want to devote the volume needed to actually be successful. They tell themselves, i dont need pro results, i'll just put up "x" ammount, and surely its better than nothing. BUT in the end they just get a different version of bad. Optimism is the devil here, IMO.

Or that flush mounting isnt necessary? It's indeed a large compromise not to, but with enough of the right treatment it obviously can be done without flush mounting. MRAD2 is proof of that.
Old 13th September 2019
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Which part? 40cm bass traps are sufficient? That comes from companies who want to sell "bass traps" but can't ship a 900+mm trap in the mail. So they convince consumers that 4inches of rigid fiber is just as good. Then people learn that fluffy fiber is needed to trap bass, but dont want to devote the volume needed to actually be successful. They tell themselves, i dont need pro results, i'll just put up "x" ammount, and surely its better than nothing. BUT in the end they just get a different version of bad. Optimism is the devil here, IMO.

Or that flush mounting isnt necessary? It's indeed a large compromise not to, but with enough of the right treatment it obviously can be done without flush mounting. MRAD2 is proof of that.
You dont need 900mm traps. 400mm is fine for side walls. My corners are slightly thicker.. The problems in my room ar not really the low low end anyway. More of a high bass or mid range problem really
Old 13th September 2019
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camomiletea View Post
You dont need 900mm traps. 400mm is fine for side walls. My corners are slightly thicker.. The problems in my room ar not really the low low end anyway. More of a high bass or mid range problem really
A little awkward, but....
Low end response is fine but low mids are horroble. Why why why?
Old 13th September 2019
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camomiletea View Post
Maybe you should.
But where did you hear it? link or whatever.
Old 14th September 2019
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
But where did you hear it? link or whatever.
An online calculator acousticmodeling.com obviously thicker is better but for side walls 40cm was good enough for my needs. I kept the corners thicker though
Old 14th September 2019
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
1 why is that awkward?
2that was my first studio build 5 years ago!
Old 14th September 2019
  #108
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Because it was your thread that has good info that can help you and yet you have the same problem now. I assure you that 900+mm of appropriate fiber/gfr in a suitable volume is not unneccessary. It is not uncommon at all for professional designers to have entire walls 2-3 feet thick of fluffy fiber. I've often heard of them devoting upwards of 60% of a control rooms volume to acoustic treatment.
Old 14th September 2019
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Which part? 40cm bass traps are sufficient? That comes from companies who want to sell "bass traps" but can't ship a 900+mm trap in the mail. So they convince consumers that 4inches of rigid fiber is just as good. Then people learn that fluffy fiber is needed to trap bass, but dont want to devote the volume needed to actually be successful. They tell themselves, i dont need pro results, i'll just put up "x" ammount, and surely its better than nothing. BUT in the end they just get a different version of bad. Optimism is the devil here, IMO.

Or that flush mounting isnt necessary? It's indeed a large compromise not to, but with enough of the right treatment it obviously can be done without flush mounting. MRAD2 is proof of that.
I have to check that MRAD, I always thought it to be a bit silly.
I did, with Eric Desart and Scott Foster, a lot of measuring on diffusers and these numerical diffusers all show behavior I wouldn't like in my control room. They destroy reflections (Floyd Toole says if there are reflections they should be as similar to the direct sound as possible), they color sound or they do nothing positive at all justifying the money they cost. They look gorgeous, though
Old 14th September 2019
  #110
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Aftet the myth of the 1/4 wavelength, the myth of the folks in studio have the GoldenEar.
They don't heard the sound of the diffuser.

What is the next myth to destroy?
Old 18th September 2019
  #111
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I'm back!

So it has been a week or so and I have been learning, measuring, then learning some more and buying new furniture for my studio. The other big table is out and was causing nasty comb filtering in the mid range so I go a smaller one. The other big factor was the listening position within the room which took me a long time and a lot of playing around but I think I found the best spot. I m glad I started this thread as it has taught me loads and everyones help has been much appreciated.

Here are my latest measurements. What do you all think? I am also providing the mdat file and I would appreciate anyones input here. I think there is a huge improvement but I still don't like the dip at around 115hz and the peak that comes shortly thereafter at 180hz. Has the first dip got to do with floor bounce and is there anything I can do about this? Also, how can I figure out what is causing the 180Hz bump? Is the clue in the waterfall plot since this gives us an idea of time?
Attached Thumbnails
FR vs Waterfall chart for analyzing room measreuments-leftspkr.jpg   FR vs Waterfall chart for analyzing room measreuments-rightspkr.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: mdat Wed18Sept.mdat (5.72 MB, 3 views)
Old 18th September 2019
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Because it was your thread that has good info that can help you and yet you have the same problem now. I assure you that 900+mm of appropriate fiber/gfr in a suitable volume is not unneccessary. It is not uncommon at all for professional designers to have entire walls 2-3 feet thick of fluffy fiber. I've often heard of them devoting upwards of 60% of a control rooms volume to acoustic treatment.
thanks I read it but not sure how it is helpful as this thread is really about interpreting measurement results. Also, If you look at my measurements I think the problems are not with the low end which means I used enough fiber. If I hadn't the low modes would be causing the problem. Do you understand what I mean?
Old 18th September 2019
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camomiletea View Post
thanks I read it but not sure how it is helpful as this thread is really about interpreting measurement results. Also, If you look at my measurements I think the problems are not with the low end which means I used enough fiber. If I hadn't the low modes would be causing the problem. Do you understand what I mean?
You consider this efficient low reproduction....
Old 18th September 2019
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camomiletea View Post
thanks I read it but not sure how it is helpful as this thread is really about interpreting measurement results. Also, If you look at my measurements I think the problems are not with the low end which means I used enough fiber. If I hadn't the low modes would be causing the problem. Do you understand what I mean?
Read the last sentence in the quote box and the title on your old thread and tell me again how its not relevant here.
Attached Thumbnails
FR vs Waterfall chart for analyzing room measreuments-img_20190918_122121.jpg  
Old 18th September 2019
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Foi View Post
Read the last sentence in the quote box and the title on your old thread and tell me again how its not relevant here.
Yes but there is nothing in the thread that is going to help me answer the OP or help me analyze my results and there is nothing in the thread that will help me with the current problems I am experiencing here. There was a time I did think that my bass was ok in my other room but it turned out I was wrong about that. I was wrong about many things 5 years ago. I am wrong about many things today so can you imagine 5 years ago?? sheesh!
Old 18th September 2019
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
You consider this efficient low reproduction....
For these speakers I do. Look at the response of my speakers, between 50 and 100Hz it is still "climbing" just like in my graph. Also, I was talking about fact that there was no dips and valleys in this zone. I could be wrong so would you be able to correct me please?
Attached Thumbnails
FR vs Waterfall chart for analyzing room measreuments-yam-msp7studio_d.jpg   FR vs Waterfall chart for analyzing room measreuments-yam-msp7studio_d.jpg  
Old 18th September 2019
  #117
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You can check that with a burst decay or a CSD waterfall.

When you're happy it's ok with me.
I think that people reading this topic should realise that your low levels are low IMHO.
Old 18th September 2019
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camomiletea View Post

Here are my latest measurements. What do you all think?
Why are your sine sweep levels so low ? 50-60 db is quieter than speech conversation. IMO you want to be somewhere between 80-90db to excite the room modes.

Unless you didn't calibrate REW properly with a SPL hand meter ?
Old 19th September 2019
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
You can check that with a burst decay or a CSD waterfall.

When you're happy it's ok with me.
I think that people reading this topic should realise that your low levels are low IMHO.
Check what exactly?

Maybe 2 or 3 db but in all honesty the frequency response is not too bad. +-5db is perfectly normal even in pro studios. Ofcourse I am trying to get it the best I can and will keep trying. Thanks for your help.
Old 19th September 2019
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camomiletea View Post
Check what exactly?

Maybe 2 or 3 db but in all honesty the frequency response is not too bad. +-5db is perfectly normal even in pro studios. Ofcourse I am trying to get it the best I can and will keep trying. Thanks for your help.
Are you a studio designer?
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