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Treating my loft
Old 1 week ago
  #1
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Treating my loft

Hi guys,

Okay so I would like some advice on treating the acoustics of my room which is a loft conversion.

The flooring is laminate wood and the dimensions are 3.15m (L) by 5.5m (H).

The high ceiling height is 2m and the low ceiling height is 1m.

The distance between the back of the speakers and the wall behind is 25cm - which can be moved if needed.

The room is lacking in low end and the mids are horribly uneven.

I'm completely new to handling acoustics and I've also attached some photos of the room as well as a REW waterfall graph.

Hoping to hear from you guys soon. Thanks alot.
Attached Thumbnails
Treating my loft-img_1970.jpg   Treating my loft-img_1971.jpg   Treating my loft-img_1972.jpg   Treating my loft-img_1973.jpg   Treating my loft-img_1974.jpg  

Treating my loft-img_1975.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: mdat Jul 8 15_13_59.mdat (2.49 MB, 11 views)

Last edited by gongy1; 1 week ago at 03:42 PM.. Reason: Measurement errors
Old 1 week ago
  #2
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Here's a JPG of the REW waterfall
Attached Thumbnails
Treating my loft-1.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gongy1 View Post
Hi guys,
The distance between the back of the speakers and the wall behind is 25cm - which can be moved if needed.
Hello,

The first thing to do. After you could do a new measurement and download here.
Old 1 week ago
  #4
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johannburkard's Avatar
Remove asymmetries from the room (the shelf). Start bass trapping. You will probably need a few GIK Monster panels to play with your 65-70 Hz mode there. The other modes are quite high up so thinner panels (GIK 244) will work.

Last edited by johannburkard; 1 week ago at 08:22 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 1 week ago
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannburkard View Post
Remove asymmetries from the room (the shelf). Start bass trapping. You will probably need a few GIK Monster panels to play with for your 65-70 Hz mode there. The other modes are quite high up so thinner panels (GIK 244) will work.
Thank you for responding back. What would work for >200Hz?

Also the room lacks low end and the mids are horribly out of control
Old 1 week ago
  #6
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Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
Hello,

The first thing to do. After you could do a new measurement and download here.
Explain please?
Old 1 week ago
  #7
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johannburkard's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gongy1 View Post
Thank you for responding back. What would work for >200Hz?
In my (limited) experience, these things balance themselves out automatically to some extent once you get the bass in check. In short, treat (mid) bass first, first reflection points and things should clear up.
Old 1 week ago
  #8
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Originally Posted by gongy1 View Post
Explain please?
The distance between the front wall and the speakers give the first cancelation. By this formula 340/distance(meter) /4.

You google with the word SBIR and you will have all.
Old 1 week ago
  #9
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Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
The distance between the front wall and the speakers give the first cancelation. By this formula 340/distance(meter) /4.

You google with the word SBIR and you will have all.
This formula is an over simplification and works only if you are in the axe of the speaker (iow when you are in front of it, facing the speaker).

Since we are in the middle of two speakers, the path length is no longer a strict line but a triangle ; forming by you, front wall and speaker.

So it gets more complicated than this formula.

Last edited by JayPee; 1 week ago at 06:36 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #10
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akebrake's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gongy1 View Post
...
Also the room lacks low end and the mids are horribly out of control
Hello gongy!
That’s correct. NO BASS and several other things which (added) together are causing this.
Like: Thin walls, windows, lack of modal support, no traps, strong first reflection nulls, standing wave peaks & nulls ...

How much work are you prepared/ allowed to do? An understanding landlord? Neighbors? Traffic? What is your budget? Are you handy DIY?

But for a start make sure your measurement is valid.

1. What kind of microphone is used? Small omni?
2. Make sure (soundcard) "monitoring" is swithed off.
3. Place speakers equal distance from L& R walls
4. Spkrs as close as possible to the front wall (almost touching)
5. Place mic equal distance from L& R walls
6. Always measure Left and Right speaker separately. (L+R is optional)
7. Use one sweep.

Best
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
This formula is an over simplification and works only if you are in the axe of the speaker (iow when you are in front of it, facing the speaker).

Since we are in the middle of two speakers, the path length is no longer a strict line but a triangle ; forming by you, front wall and speaker.

So it gets more complicated than this formula.
that is wrote in my books.
Old 1 week ago
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akebrake View Post
Hello gongy!
That’s correct. NO BASS and several other things which (added) together are causing this.
Like: Thin walls, windows, lack of modal support, no traps, strong first reflection nulls, standing wave peaks & nulls ...

How much work are you prepared/ allowed to do? An understanding landlord? Neighbors? Traffic? What is your budget? Are you handy DIY?

But for a start make sure your measurement is valid.

1. What kind of microphone is used? Small omni?
2. Make sure (soundcard) "monitoring" is swithed off.
3. Place speakers equal distance from L& R walls
4. Spkrs as close as possible to the front wall (almost touching)
5. Place mic equal distance from L& R walls
6. Always measure Left and Right speaker separately. (L+R is optional)
7. Use one sweep.

Best
Thank you for your response.

I've used an AT2035 which is a small condenser mic and the measurement was taken exactly following those steps.

Also in terms of work, my budget is fairly small but I could stretch it. My DIY isn't too great either but I'm down to install anything which is required.
Old 1 week ago
  #13
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Quote:
I've used an AT2035 which is a small condenser mic
That's not what you need for acoustic measurements. That's cardioid mic, and is physically large. You need a proper acoustic measurement mic, which is omnidiretional and physically small: tapered, so that the body of the mic does not interfere with the sound it is trying to measure.

- Stuart -
Old 1 week ago
  #14
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Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
That's not what you need for acoustic measurements. That's cardioid mic, and is physically large. You need a proper acoustic measurement mic, which is omnidiretional and physically small: tapered, so that the body of the mic does not interfere with the sound it is trying to measure.

- Stuart -
Right, makes sense.
Old 6 days ago
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannburkard View Post
Remove asymmetries from the room (the shelf). Start bass trapping. You will probably need a few GIK Monster panels to play with your 65-70 Hz mode there. The other modes are quite high up so thinner panels (GIK 244) will work.
Will the 600 x 600 GIK 244's be suitable?
Old 6 days ago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gongy1 View Post
Will the 600 x 600 GIK 244's be suitable?
Not exclusively, if that's your question. You may find them easier to place in your loft than a larger panel but you'll have to do twice the work.
Old 6 days ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannburkard View Post
Not exclusively, if that's your question. You may find them easier to place in your loft than a larger panel but you'll have to do twice the work.
If i purchase the larger panels, where should they ideally be placed? In the corners?
Old 6 days ago
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannburkard View Post
Not exclusively, if that's your question. You may find them easier to place in your loft than a larger panel but you'll have to do twice the work.
Also, the larger panels can't be placed right behind the monitors due to the roof taking up space. But there is room for it on the sides of the front wall
Old 6 days ago
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Originally Posted by gongy1 View Post
If i purchase the larger panels, where should they ideally be placed? In the corners?
The celling is a corner in your room and a great source of reflections.

I would start by this.
Old 6 days ago
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Originally Posted by dinococcus View Post
The celling is a corner in your room and a great source of reflections.

I would start by this.
Thats a very good point. Thanks for that.
Old 5 days ago
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johannburkard View Post
Not exclusively, if that's your question. You may find them easier to place in your loft than a larger panel but you'll have to do twice the work.
Also - noting that there's a lack of low end in the room. Wouldn't these bass traps absorb the low end even more? Or will they correct it?
Old 5 days ago
  #22
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Quote:
Also - noting that there's a lack of low end in the room. Wouldn't these Bass Traps absorb the low end even more? Or will they correct it?
Most likely correct it. That seems counter-intuitive, but it works like this. If you are sitting in a modal null in the room, and you put suitable treatment at the location where the modal peak is, that will bring down the peak which also "fills in" the null. Because you are looking at opposite ends of the same phenomena! A mode is a standing wave, which appears to be stationary in the room. It isn't really stationary at all! The wave is still rushing around the room at 343 meters per second, but the pressure peaks and pressure nulls always end up at the same spot in the room, because the wave fits in exactly between the walls. Since the peak and null are just opposite ends of the same wave, anything you do to one of them will also affect the other one, exactly inverted. So if you could damp the peak perfectly, then the null would disappear too. It's hard to damp very low frequency modes completely, but even modest damping will bring back some of that missing bass.

However, if you are in a null caused by some type of reflection, it might or might not be simple to treat. If you are in an SBIR null, for example, that's a different story. Harder to fix. Ditto for a floor bounce, but it usually isn't necessary to go crazy about floor bounces anyway, because your brain sort of "tunes them out".

So, it depends what the cause of your missing bass is: You can fix it or at least improve it with treatment if it is modal: Maybe not so much if it is SBIR or floor bounce. But if that's the case (SBIR or floor bounce), you can probably fix it by adding a sub (or two).


- Stuart -

Last edited by Soundman2020; 1 day ago at 04:11 PM..
Old 5 days ago
  #23
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from looking at the pics of your room, i assume you might get better results by trying to get rid of the triangular ceiling by either filling it up (partially - as one would do with bass traps in the corners) and/or by installing a cloud above your speakers/listening position; cannot tell whether a cloud should be more of a diffusor, absorber or a combination of both.
Old 5 days ago
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gongy1 View Post
Also - noting that there's a lack of low end in the room.
Adding to what @ Soundman2020 wrote, that's why I recommended a few GIK Monster Bass Traps. They will be effective at lower frequencies.
Old 1 day ago
  #25
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Testing testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by gongy1 View Post
Also - noting that there's a lack of low end in the room. Wouldn't these bass traps absorb the low end even more? Or will they correct it?
Stuart did a nice explanation what bass traps will do to the modes.

IMHO the decay time is still "a bit short" for an untreated room.
(Pic 1 Loft compared to a concrete 5m room.)

Do you know what kind of walls there is? Ceiling? Low bass leaking out?

Test 1. Can you hear a lot of low end outside the building if you play fairly loud with your speakers?

Test 2: Place plastic wrapped packages of soft mineral wool in the four corners of the room.

Soft trapping in the 4 vertical corners is the generic GS ”acoustical medicin” recommended to ALL patients for a start.

Test 3: Think about a cloud also (as big and thick as possible) Some imagination needed. Well...2m ceiling? Huh


Before/ after measurements with REW of course...
Attached Thumbnails
Treating my loft-topt-comparison.jpg   Treating my loft-loft-suggest-15-jul-1.jpg  
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