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Need help with perfectly square room + furniture Studio Monitors
Old 1 week ago
  #1
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Need help with perfectly square room + furniture

Hey guys, I'm moving into a new place and I can only really put the studio in one room, which is exactly 12' x 12'.

There is a closet approximately 2' deep by 8 feet long that takes up about 2/3 of a wall. It doesn't go all the way up to the ceiling - there are about 2 or so feet of space above the closet.

I know that a perfectly square room is a no go for proper mixing acoustics. With the closet properly placed and some heavy GIK acoustic treatment (that I already own), could I make this room a good mixing environment? I mix bass heavy music a lot, so this is important before I get myself too wrapped up in a room that doesn't work.

Also where would you put the closet? Any suggestions from anyone with experience in this will be greatly appreciated.



Old 1 week ago
  #2
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The closet is clearly not a permanent part of the room, and is only messing with your symmetry, so I would get rid of it. The closet does not affect the modal response of the room, so having it there does not improve on the 12x12 issue. On the other hand, it is a resonant cavity, and it does mess with room symmetry, so get rid of it.

You also seem to have carpet on the floor, so I would get rid of that too, and put down a more useful floor, acoustically.

Probably the best layout for that room is to have it facing the window, then do some massive (deep) bass trapping in at least six corners of the room, VERY deep and wide, plus a cloud on the ceiling, and also deeper-than-usual absorption on the first reflection points (side walls) (so it helps with both reflections and modal response).

Hopefully, the ceiling is not 8 feet high? Or even worse, 12 feet high?

Quote:
and some heavy GIK Acoustic Treatment (that I already own),
Do you have something that is about three feet thick (about 1 meter)? You are going to need DEEEEEEEEP bass trapping for that room.... typical thin panels are not going to be enough
Old 1 week ago
  #3
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Haha, I seem to have been following Soundman around these threads, but man, what he says is good advice. I'm beginning to think El Senor Soundman should write up a sticky for all the frustrated people with small rooms.

The simple truth is that in a small room, you need an inordinate amount of broadband absorption, and that's an uncomfortable reality for a lot of newbies.
Old 1 week ago
  #4
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book shelves ..with lots of books in them
Old 1 week ago
  #5
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Originally Posted by RightOnRome View Post
book shelves ..with lots of books in them
I'm just wondering... how would you manage to tune the arrangement of books to deal with the modes at 47.1 Hz, 94.2 Hz and 141.3 Hz? It seems to me you'd need pretty large books.... I think even a few dozen Gutenberg Bible would be too small.... You might need several copies of the entire Brazilian Tax code book to do that....
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Old 1 week ago
  #6
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Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Haha, I seem to have been following Soundman around these threads,
Stalker! I have a stalker! But darn, I was hoping for Charlize Theron or maybe Miranda Kerr.... Oh welll.... You can't have it all, I guess...

Quote:
but man, what he says is good advice. I'm beginning to think El Senor Soundman should write up a sticky for all the frustrated people with small rooms.
Thanks for the kind words! If I had enough time, I would probably do that!

Quote:
The simple truth is that in a small room, you need an inordinate amount of broadband absorption, and that's an uncomfortable reality for a lot of newbies.
Absolutely! I think every single studio builder on the planet wants a magical treatment panel that is only 1/8" thick, that comes in rolls, that you can unroll and stick on your walls to make them isolate to 80 dB and also have perfect diffusion across the entire spectrum as well as excellent bass trapping properties... and only costs on dollar per hundred square feet.... Sadly, no such product exists. If only it were that easy. Sigh!


- Stuart -
Old 1 week ago
  #7
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Ok there is one other room I can use. The problem is that it shares a wall with the neighbors. There is a cinderblock later between the two townhouses, in addition to insulation and drywall. I hope this, with bass traps and furniture will be enough to block sub frequencies from visiting the neighbors.

Dimensions: 16’7” x 10’9” x 9’

What would be the best way to set it up?



Old 1 week ago
  #8
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Quote:
Dimensions: 16’7” x 10’9” x 9’ ... What would be the best way to set it up?
The same way: facing the window, speakers up against that wall (on heavy stands), bass trapping in as many corners as you can manage, thick panels on the side walls at first reflection points (and perhaps further back too), cloud on the ceiling, back wall completely covered with thick absorption.

The difference with this room is that there are doors in both rear corners: that limits your possibilities for deep bass trapping.

- Stuart -
Old 1 week ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
The same way: facing the window, speakers up against that wall (on heavy stands), bass trapping in as many corners as you can manage, thick panels on the side walls at first reflection points (and perhaps further back too), cloud on the ceiling, back wall completely covered with thick absorption.

The difference with this room is that there are doors in both rear corners: that limits your possibilities for deep bass trapping.

- Stuart -

Thanks for the help; what about having the speakers on the window side, with some heavy curtains I can put between the desk and windows. The monitors are rear ported Yamaha HS80m. I would put a sound panel on each side of the window, where the rear port points to. This would make it easier to get in the back closet. Otherwise, if I put my setup on the wall opposite the window, it will be tough to get in and out of the room/closet.
Old 1 week ago
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac_music View Post
Ok there is one other room I can use. The problem is that it shares a wall with the neighbors. There is a cinderblock later between the two townhouses, in addition to insulation and drywall. I hope this, with bass traps and furniture will be enough to block sub frequencies from visiting the neighbors.

Dimensions: 16’7” x 10’9” x 9’

What would be the best way to set it up?



i stand by my recommendation..book shefs do it all
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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Quote:
what about having the speakers on the window side,
Ummmm.... that's exactly what I've been saying! In BOTH rooms, that's the best layout: Have the room set up to face the windows. Speakers up against that wall (with the windows in it). I don't understand why you would think I was telling you to have your speakers on the other wall, where the doors are....

- Stuart -
Old 1 week ago
  #12
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Originally Posted by RightOnRome View Post
i stand by my recommendation..book shefs do it all
I stand by my recommendation: no they do not.

You have not yet explained how you would tune the response of such a device to deal with the very low frequency modal issues in that room. When you explain that, I might be more interested... but since there is no way of doing that, there cannot be any explanation. You are aware that sound waves are only affected by objects that are similar in size to the wavelength, right? Books are a few inches in each direction: low frequency waves are dozens of FEET long...

Books have a mild effect on room acoustics, yes, but it is totally unpredictable (unless you are able to arrange the books to follow an exact QRD or PRD sequence, or even a BAD sequence), and therefore not of any use for a control room.

How many professional control rooms do you see with books on the walls as the acoustic treatment?

I'd also like to see your method for attaching books to the ceiling, to deal with the acoustic issues in the vertical direction....


- Stuart -
Old 1 week ago
  #13
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Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Ummmm.... that's exactly what I've been saying! In BOTH rooms, that's the best layout: Have the room set up to face the windows. Speakers up against that wall (with the windows in it). I don't understand why you would think I was telling you to have your speakers on the other wall, where the doors are....

- Stuart -
Ok, that makes my life a lot easier. By "facing the windows" I thought you meant the speakers facing the windows, not myself. Some say that having the speakers face the window aids in bass acoustics since the bass just escapes the room through the windows.

Now about furniture, I would like to place a couch or two in the room. Can I have one on a side wall? One on the back wall would have to be pretty small.
Old 1 week ago
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
I stand by my recommendation: no they do not.

You have not yet explained how you would tune the response of such a device to deal with the very low frequency modal issues in that room. When you explain that, I might be more interested... but since there is no way of doing that, there cannot be any explanation. You are aware that sound waves are only affected by objects that are similar in size to the wavelength, right? Books are a few inches in each direction: low frequency waves are dozens of FEET long...

Books have a mild effect on room acoustics, yes, but it is totally unpredictable (unless you are able to arrange the books to follow an exact QRD or PRD sequence, or even a BAD sequence), and therefore not of any use for a control room.

How many professional control rooms do you see with books on the walls as the acoustic treatment?

I'd also like to see your method for attaching books to the ceiling, to deal with the acoustic issues in the vertical direction....


- Stuart -
there's no tuning about it..your going way to far..look at the rooms he's talking about..want to build a room in that room and then treat it? foat it..?..come on..this is a KISS solution.. maybe a little treatment and bookshelves.. that gives you some diffusion and deadening..
Old 1 week ago
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RightOnRome View Post
there's no tuning about it..your going way to far..look at the rooms he's talking about..want to build a room in that room and then treat it? foat it..?..come on..this is a KISS solution.. maybe a little treatment and bookshelves.. that gives you some diffusion and deadening..
Small rooms are not about diffusion and deadening. They are too small to warrant diffusion, and the most common mistake people make is just "deadening" with carpet, egg crates or foam.

The issue is the buildup of low frequency standing waves, which simply cannot be helped with bookshelves or furniture.

The solutions range from KISS to complex, but there is no reason to go over them again in this thread: there are many many previous threads and resources on GS to help sort that out.
Old 1 week ago
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Small rooms are not about diffusion and deadening. They are too small to warrant diffusion, and the most common mistake people make is just "deadening" with carpet, egg crates or foam.

The issue is the buildup of low frequency standing waves, which simply cannot be helped with bookshelves or furniture.

The solutions range from KISS to complex, but there is no reason to go over them again in this thread: there are many many previous threads and resources on GS to help sort that out.
^ I never said that..but would love to hear a solution rather than endless disagreements


regards,
Old 1 week ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RightOnRome View Post
^ I never said that..but would love to hear a solution rather than endless disagreements


regards,
Stickies at top of this forum.
Old 1 week ago
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RightOnRome View Post
there's no tuning about it..your going way to far..look at the rooms he's talking about..want to build a room in that room and then treat it? foat it..?..come on..this is a KISS solution.. maybe a little treatment and bookshelves.. that gives you some diffusion and deadening..
So you don't actually have any idea about what you are suggesting then? Thanks. That's what I suspected.

For the record: A bunch of books on shelves do nothing at all useful for a room: they don't diffuse well, and they most certainly do NOT provide any useful absorption for modal issues. In that room, there WILL be large modal issues at the frequencies I already mentioned, which absolutely cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be treated by mere books. They CAN be treated in the usual way: By building bass traps in the corners.

Quote:
there's no tuning about it.
All diffusers are tuned, like it or not. They are either tuned properly, or they are a disaster.

Quote:
.your going way to far..
Really? And here's me thinking that I wasn't going anywhere near far enough for that room!

Quote:
want to build a room in that room
Ummmmm.... say what? Are you smoking something illegal? Where on earth did I even suggest such a thing? Your imagination is running wild with you, and seems to be far better than your acoustic knowledge.

Quote:
foat it..?
I assume you meant "float it", not "foat it", and once again, that must be REALLY good stuff you are on, because I didn't even make any suggestion at all about floating the room... Are you reading the same thread as the rest of us?

Quote:
and bookshelves.. that gives you some diffusion..
Nope! Sorry. Nice try. Bookshelves do NOT produce usable diffusion in rooms, and most certainly not at modal frequencies. Even at the frequencies where books can scatter, they still don't diffuse. You DO know the difference between diffusion and scattering, right? And you do understand that there are only a couple of number sequences that produce a diffuse field that has a flat power spectrum, right? You do understand that, unless you use such sequences, the power spectrum will NOT be flat, and therefore there will be serious lobing patterns? You seem to be such an expert on "bookshelf diffusion", that I guess you are fully aware of all this, and just don't actually give a damn if the OP's room turns out usable or not...

Quote:
and deadening
You are kidding, right? Why on earth would you wnat a dead room to mix in? Have you never looked into the psycho-acoustics of what type of environment is required for mixing? Have you ever even read BS.1116-3, or Tech-3276? Do you even know what those are? Could you even understand them if you did happen to read them?

Quote:
I never said that..
Ummm... yes you did, in pretty much those exact words.... Maybe that stuff is making you forget what you wrote?

Quote:
but would love to hear a solution rather than endless disagreements
Already given, in several places: First, set up the room correctly, then treat with bass traps, first reflection point traps, a ceiling cloud, and possibly others, as needed. Your reading comprehension skills seem to be fading fast...

Quote:
.look at the rooms he's talking about.
And what exactly is wrong with it? To me, it looks just fine as a potential room for a good studio. I have designed and built many rather good studios in rooms similar to this, actually. And in smaller ones too. And ones with worse shapes. It can be done, if you know what you are doing. The OP seems to be rather interested in getting good results in his room, and that is most definitely achievable... plenty of space, reasonable dimensions. The place can be very good, if he wants it to be. Who the hell are you to tell him otherwise? If he want's a good room, what right do you have to tell him it is no use, and therefore only needs useless, lousy treatment that wont really do anything useful?

You DO know that it is a myth that shelves of books, CD's, LP's, and similar objects make for usable diffusion? Please don't tell me you actually thought that was a valid treatment for a control room...

I'm just surprised you didn't tell him to put carpet on the walls, and egg crates on the ceiling...



- Stuart -
Old 1 week ago
  #19
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Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
The second room has a long curved wall that everyone seems to ignore so far. While the curve is a dispersive surface that helps avoid some peaks and nulls associated with parallel surfaces, its placement in the room and the placement of doors and windows destroys any hope of left/right symmetry in that room. I’d rather deal with the other room.
Edit: or is the “curved wall” an illusion created by the camera? I think I’ve been tricked!
That threw me at first too, but I think the photos were taken with a very wide angled lens, and it's just optical distortion that makes the wall seem curved. At least, that's the way it looks to me... If you look closely, the LEFT wall is curved in one photo, while the RIGHT wall is curved in the other photo (with left and right being with respect to "facing the window").

- Stuart -
Old 1 week ago
  #20
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Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Small rooms are not about diffusion and deadening. They are too small to warrant diffusion, and the most common mistake people make is just "deadening" with carpet, egg crates or foam.

The issue is the buildup of low frequency standing waves, which simply cannot be helped with bookshelves or furniture.
Exactly. Well said. The OP wants to treat his room, and books on shelves are useless for that.

- Stuart -
Old 1 week ago
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac_music View Post
Ok, that makes my life a lot easier. By "facing the windows" I thought you meant the speakers facing the windows, not myself.
OK, no problem. In general, when we speak of the "front" of the room, we are talking about the wall you are facing as you are seated at the mix position, mixing. The wall where the speakers are. So the "back" of the room is the opposite wall: behind you.

Quote:
Some say that having the speakers face the window aids in bass acoustics since the bass just escapes the room through the windows.
For low frequencies, it doesn't matter if the speakers are facing the windows or not: speakers put out all of their low frequency energy in all directions at once: it's only at higher frequencies that the speaker starts to "focus" sound in the direction it is facing. For lows, they go out roughly like a sphere around the speaker, approximately equal in all directions. So, if the glass is very thin, then yes, some of the sound would go out through the windows.... and probably upset your neighbor out there!

Quote:
Now about furniture, I would like to place a couch or two in the room. Can I have one on a side wall? One on the back wall would have to be pretty small.
In the larger room (with the closet) it seem there is space to have a couch back there. Not right against the back wall, but a short distance away from the wall. Leave enough room for the treatment on the rear wall (after you take out the closet, of course!), and for someone to be able to walk between that and the couch. It's never a good idea to have the couch right up against the wall, due to bass build up and other potential problems, so moving it a few feet away is a good idea.

- Stuart -
Old 1 week ago
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
So you don't actually have any idea about what you are suggesting then? Thanks. That's what I suspected.

For the record: A bunch of books on shelves do nothing at all useful for a room: they don't diffuse well, and they most certainly do NOT provide any useful absorption for modal issues. In that room, there WILL be large modal issues at the frequencies I already mentioned, which absolutely cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be treated by mere books. They CAN be treated in the usual way: By building bass traps in the corners.

All diffusers are tuned, like it or not. They are either tuned properly, or they are a disaster.

Really? And here's me thinking that I wasn't going anywhere near far enough for that room!

Ummmmm.... say what? Are you smoking something illegal? Where on earth did I even suggest such a thing? Your imagination is running wild with you, and seems to be far better than your acoustic knowledge.

I assume you meant "float it", not "foat it", and once again, that must be REALLY good stuff you are on, because I didn't even make any suggestion at all about floating the room... Are you reading the same thread as the rest of us?

Nope! Sorry. Nice try. Bookshelves do NOT produce usable diffusion in rooms, and most certainly not at modal frequencies. Even at the frequencies where books can scatter, they still don't diffuse. You DO know the difference between diffusion and scattering, right? And you do understand that there are only a couple of number sequences that produce a diffuse field that has a flat power spectrum, right? You do understand that, unless you use such sequences, the power spectrum will NOT be flat, and therefore there will be serious lobing patterns? You seem to be such an expert on "bookshelf diffusion", that I guess you are fully aware of all this, and just don't actually give a damn if the OP's room turns out usable or not...

You are kidding, right? Why on earth would you wnat a dead room to mix in? Have you never looked into the psycho-acoustics of what type of environment is required for mixing? Have you ever even read BS.1116-3, or Tech-3276? Do you even know what those are? Could you even understand them if you did happen to read them?

Ummm... yes you did, in pretty much those exact words.... Maybe that stuff is making you forget what you wrote?

Already given, in several places: First, set up the room correctly, then treat with bass traps, first reflection point traps, a ceiling cloud, and possibly others, as needed. Your reading comprehension skills seem to be fading fast...

And what exactly is wrong with it? To me, it looks just fine as a potential room for a good studio. I have designed and built many rather good studios in rooms similar to this, actually. And in smaller ones too. And ones with worse shapes. It can be done, if you know what you are doing. The OP seems to be rather interested in getting good results in his room, and that is most definitely achievable... plenty of space, reasonable dimensions. The place can be very good, if he wants it to be. Who the hell are you to tell him otherwise? If he want's a good room, what right do you have to tell him it is no use, and therefore only needs useless, lousy treatment that wont really do anything useful?

You DO know that it is a myth that shelves of books, CD's, LP's, and similar objects make for usable diffusion? Please don't tell me you actually thought that was a valid treatment for a control room...

I'm just surprised you didn't tell him to put carpet on the walls, and egg crates on the ceiling...



- Stuart -
this project looked to me like someone needed some practical easy advice, ..but i guess not..so it looks like you and robert are better suited for the job.. no need to insult people to feel better about yourself..go ahead and take over here please..be my guest, i'll get back to work, have a great day!

Last edited by RightOnRome; 1 week ago at 01:41 PM..
Old 6 days ago
  #23
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Originally Posted by RightOnRome View Post
no need to insult people to feel better about yourself..
I don’t know about that. It seems to be a successful strategy in current public discourse.
You have a peaceful, media-free day.
Old 6 days ago
  #24
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Quote:
this project looked to me like someone needed some practical easy advice,
And that's what we were giving him! ... Until you came along with the impractical, complicated, unworkable, unusable and very expensive myth of "books on shelves"... Even the cost of buying many hundreds of large books and the large, strong shelves to hold them, is a huge expense, compared to the cost of simple, cheap, proven, scientific, acoustic treatment that actually does work, and which the rest of us were talking about.

And speaking of insulting, all I did was respond in the exact same tone you used, just turned up few notches. As the saying goes: if you can't take the heat, then don't go in the kitchen...

Getting back on track: ac_music, both of your rooms are usable. The problem with the first one (12' x 12') is, of course, the dimensions, and also the closet. If you can take out the closet, then it is a possibility, but it's going to need a lot of treatment to deal with the superimposed or "coincident" modes. The other room (16’7” x 10’9” x 9’) is longer and narrower, but only a bit narrower, and it is also much larger: around 180 ft2, compared to 144 ft2 for the first room. The room volume is also much greater (1,630 ft3, vs. only 1,300 ft3). That's about 25% more air volume and floor area, which is very good. The ratio between dimensions is not ideal, but it's a LOT better than the first room!

So, the better room, acoustically, is the longer one (16’7” x 10’9”). My concern there would be with the doors at the rear: Do you need to use both of those doors? Would it be possible to close off one of those? They are both in the corners, which is where you need to put the bass traps (not book shelves! ). If you do need both of those doors, then there are ways of dealing with that, but if you could close one of the off completely, it would be better.

As I said before, you will need a lot of bass trapping in that room (all small rooms do need that), and the simplest, cheapest way to do that is with common building insulation, made from either fiberglass or mineral wool. It needs to be thick, large, and deep. One common method used in many home studios is simply to buy semi-rigid insulation slabs, and cut them into large triangles (at least 24" on the sides, but 26" is better), then stack those up from the floor to the ceiling, and cover them with some type of attractive fabric. Those are called "superchunk" traps, and if you search for that term on the forum, you'll find many examples of how to do that. Each one will cost you about the same as buying one book (a large hard-cover book, of course), or maybe two books, so it's a lot cheaper than having hundreds of useless books on shelves...

So build superchunks in both front corners, as well as the rear corners if you can. Some people who have doors on the corners mount their superchunks on wheels, like a gobo, that they just wheel into place when they need to do critical listening.

You will probably also need superchunks in some of the other corners, such as the one between the ceiling and the rear wall, and the two between the ceiling and the side walls. Those corners are the best place to put bass traps, because all room modes terminate in the corners, so you get the highest efficiency and effectiveness from placing them there. But they have to be big.

Another way of doing it that is even cheaper, is to make a flat panel from 6" thick insulation, 4' wide and 9' tall, and put it diagonally across the corner. It's not quite as good as a superchunk, but still very effective, and cheaper to make.

Also cover the entire rear wall with 6" of porous insulation.

This initial treatment will damp the room modes, and reduce the "bass build-up", helping to bring down the overall decay times to something more usable. It's not ALL the treatment that you will need, but it is the most important part of the treatment.

You also mentioned putting heavy drapes across the window: That can help too, as long as they are thick and also "bunched up" with lots of folds. That can help a bit with high frequencies, and also flutter echo between the front and rear walls.

So start out with that, do a test with REW, and see how you are doing. Actually, do a test with REW in the empty room, before you do any treatment, then do another test each time you install a piece of treatment, so you can confirm that it worked, and also see what you still need to do for the next step.

- Stuart -
Old 6 days ago
  #25
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RightOnRome's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
And that's what we were giving him! ... Until you came along with the impractical, complicated, unworkable, unusable and very expensive myth of "books on shelves"... Even the cost of buying many hundreds of large books and the large, strong shelves to hold them, is a huge expense, compared to the cost of simple, cheap, proven, scientific, acoustic treatment that actually does work, and which the rest of us were talking about.

And speaking of insulting, all I did was respond in the exact same tone you used, just turned up few notches. As the saying goes: if you can't take the heat, then don't go in the kitchen...

Getting back on track: ac_music, both of your rooms are usable. The problem with the first one (12' x 12') is, of course, the dimensions, and also the closet. If you can take out the closet, then it is a possibility, but it's going to need a lot of treatment to deal with the superimposed or "coincident" modes. The other room (16’7” x 10’9” x 9’) is longer and narrower, but only a bit narrower, and it is also much larger: around 180 ft2, compared to 144 ft2 for the first room. The room volume is also much greater (1,630 ft3, vs. only 1,300 ft3). That's about 25% more air volume and floor area, which is very good. The ratio between dimensions is not ideal, but it's a LOT better than the first room!

So, the better room, acoustically, is the longer one (16’7” x 10’9”). My concern there would be with the doors at the rear: Do you need to use both of those doors? Would it be possible to close off one of those? They are both in the corners, which is where you need to put the bass traps (not book shelves! ). If you do need both of those doors, then there are ways of dealing with that, but if you could close one of the off completely, it would be better.

As I said before, you will need a lot of bass trapping in that room (all small rooms do need that), and the simplest, cheapest way to do that is with common building insulation, made from either fiberglass or mineral wool. It needs to be thick, large, and deep. One common method used in many home studios is simply to buy semi-rigid insulation slabs, and cut them into large triangles (at least 24" on the sides, but 26" is better), then stack those up from the floor to the ceiling, and cover them with some type of attractive fabric. Those are called "superchunk" traps, and if you search for that term on the forum, you'll find many examples of how to do that. Each one will cost you about the same as buying one book (a large hard-cover book, of course), or maybe two books, so it's a lot cheaper than having hundreds of useless books on shelves...

So build superchunks in both front corners, as well as the rear corners if you can. Some people who have doors on the corners mount their superchunks on wheels, like a gobo, that they just wheel into place when they need to do critical listening.

You will probably also need superchunks in some of the other corners, such as the one between the ceiling and the rear wall, and the two between the ceiling and the side walls. Those corners are the best place to put bass traps, because all room modes terminate in the corners, so you get the highest efficiency and effectiveness from placing them there. But they have to be big.

Another way of doing it that is even cheaper, is to make a flat panel from 6" thick insulation, 4' wide and 9' tall, and put it diagonally across the corner. It's not quite as good as a superchunk, but still very effective, and cheaper to make.

Also cover the entire rear wall with 6" of porous insulation.

This initial treatment will damp the room modes, and reduce the "bass build-up", helping to bring down the overall decay times to something more usable. It's not ALL the treatment that you will need, but it is the most important part of the treatment.

You also mentioned putting heavy drapes across the window: That can help too, as long as they are thick and also "bunched up" with lots of folds. That can help a bit with high frequencies, and also flutter echo between the front and rear walls.

So start out with that, do a test with REW, and see how you are doing. Actually, do a test with REW in the empty room, before you do any treatment, then do another test each time you install a piece of treatment, so you can confirm that it worked, and also see what you still need to do for the next step.

- Stuart -
flagged! have a great day!
Old 6 days ago
  #26
Lives for gear
What does “flagged” mean?
Rome seems peeved that his suggestion of bookshelves being acoustically useful got such a negative reaction. Soundman is not attacking Rome personally or reacting to one specific post. The negativity of the reaction, I think, is due to this suggestion being one of the floating misconceptions that lands too often on similar acoustic threads. In a small room, there isn’t much need for diffraction and dispersion, so the bookshelf idea is not on point for the problem.
The other issue is the implementation. Any semi-idiot can understand and execute the idea of a large, very heavy curtain folded as much as possible. And even an imperfect implementation will probably accomplish a large percentage of the result a perfect implementation would achieve. But it takes high mathematic skills and a very clever offsetting arrangement of a large number of books to do any effective diffraction, and in a small room, it won’t achieve anything acoustically useful even if you could design and build it correctly. AND it takes up space better used for effective trapping.
So I think the level of reaction isn’t directly to you or your suggestion, but more because of the history here of the bookshelf herring being dragged across acoustic threads. And I say that as a person who was a rube who believed in in the possible benefit of bookshelves not too long ago (before learning REW and seeing that my artful bookshelf had no positive effect on the room acoustics).
Old 6 days ago
  #27
Lives for gear
 
RightOnRome's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
What does “flagged” mean?
Rome seems peeved that his suggestion of bookshelves being acoustically useful got such a negative reaction. Soundman is not attacking Rome personally or reacting to one specific post. The negativity of the reaction, I think, is due to this suggestion being one of the floating misconceptions that lands too often on similar acoustic threads. In a small room, there isn’t much need for diffraction and dispersion, so the bookshelf idea is not on point for the problem.
The other issue is the implementation. Any semi-idiot can understand and execute the idea of a large, very heavy curtain folded as much as possible. And even an imperfect implementation will probably accomplish a large percentage of the result a perfect implementation would achieve. But it takes high mathematic skills and a very clever offsetting arrangement of a large number of books to do any effective diffraction, and in a small room, it won’t achieve anything acoustically useful even if you could design and build it correctly. AND it takes up space better used for effective trapping.
So I think the level of reaction isn’t directly to you or your suggestion, but more because of the history here of the bookshelf herring being dragged across acoustic threads. And I say that as a person who was a rube who believed in in the possible benefit of bookshelves not too long ago (before learning REW and seeing that my artful bookshelf had no positive effect on the room acoustics).
understood, thank you.. I never thought this was going to be a super serious thing based on the pic..and i wish people would stop assuming that others around here are so stupid .. again thanks for the clarification, it's nice to have reactions that aren't so rude
Old 6 days ago
  #28
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
I never thought this was going to be a super serious thing based on the pic..
Why do you underestimate the OP all the time? What's wrong with his pictures, and why does he not deserve "serious" treatment? He has a good sized room (two of them), he's asking smart questions that indicate he wants to make his room good acoustically, yet you continue to belittle his room and his hopes, based on a couple of photos? Say what?

His room could, in fact, be world-class if he wanted it to be, but even if he is on a very tight budget, it can still be pretty good when treated CORRECTLY, even with inexpensive, low-tech, but acoustically valid treatment, such as building insulation placed strategically in the locations where it will do the most good, and thick folded curtains where suitable, all based on the solid principles of physics, not the baseless, useless, principles of internet myth.

I've noticed that every time somebody gives the OP good advice, you immediately respond with a negative comment, as though you somehow WANT him to fail. I don't understand that. Most people here want to help other succeed in treating their rooms. He has a good room, it can be great, or at least very good, and all he needs is simple, inexpensive treatment, done right. I don't understand why someone would insist on giving advice that would make the room mediocre at best, and more likely terrible, and at very high cost. There's no sense in that.

- Stuart -
Old 6 days ago
  #29
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
What does “flagged” mean?
I think it's a threat of some type. Not sure. And of course, it made me quake in my boots! (not)

Quote:
Rome seems peeved that his suggestion of bookshelves being acoustically useful got such a negative reaction. Soundman is not attacking Rome personally or reacting to one specific post. The negativity of the reaction, I think, is due to this suggestion being one of the floating misconceptions that lands too often on similar acoustic threads. In a small room, there isn’t much need for diffraction and dispersion, so the bookshelf idea is not on point for the problem.
The other issue is the implementation. Any semi-idiot can understand and execute the idea of a large, very heavy curtain folded as much as possible. And even an imperfect implementation will probably accomplish a large percentage of the result a perfect implementation would achieve. But it takes high mathematic skills and a very clever offsetting arrangement of a large number of books to do any effective diffraction, and in a small room, it won’t achieve anything acoustically useful even if you could design and build it correctly. AND it takes up space better used for effective trapping.
So I think the level of reaction isn’t directly to you or your suggestion, but more because of the history here of the bookshelf herring being dragged across acoustic threads. And I say that as a person who was a rube who believed in in the possible benefit of bookshelves not too long ago (before learning REW and seeing that my artful bookshelf had no positive effect on the room acoustics).
Exactly. Spot on with everything you said. You already tried this, and already realize that it does nothing useful at all. Real world experience and actual acoustic tests trump imagination and myths, any day.

Thanks!
Old 6 days ago
  #30
Lives for gear
 
RightOnRome's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Why do you underestimate the OP all the time? What's wrong with his pictures, and why does he not deserve "serious" treatment? He has a good sized room (two of them), he's asking smart questions that indicate he wants to make his room good acoustically, yet you continue to belittle his room and his hopes, based on a couple of photos? Say what?

His room could, in fact, be world-class if he wanted it to be, but even if he is on a very tight budget, it can still be pretty good when treated CORRECTLY, even with inexpensive, low-tech, but acoustically valid treatment, such as building insulation placed strategically in the locations where it will do the most good, and thick folded curtains where suitable, all based on the solid principles of physics, not the baseless, useless, principles of internet myth.

I've noticed that every time somebody gives the OP good advice, you immediately respond with a negative comment, as though you somehow WANT him to fail. I don't understand that. Most people here want to help other succeed in treating their rooms. He has a good room, it can be great, or at least very good, and all he needs is simple, inexpensive treatment, done right. I don't understand why someone would insist on giving advice that would make the room mediocre at best, and more likely terrible, and at very high cost. There's no sense in that.

- Stuart -
its you ....Stuart.....and most of your post that are negative..were done here ..you have serious issues ..carry on without me please, leave it alone and give him advice ..good day
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