The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
Building a studio on 2 levels
Old 4th March 2019
  #61
Gear Head
 
youridebruijn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Looking good as far as leaves go.
Great thanks for all the help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
The issue with floating floors is that doing it right is more complicated than this and a slab on grade is well damped as-is (like thousands of hands on a bell) by the subbase (soil beneath slab). If you are targeting higher levels of isolation, you can cut the slab (with approval of structural engineer) or do a properly floated slab. This will depend on what kind of subbase you have...when was this building built? There are some caveats here and you hope that your subbase is just compacted soil with no insulation.

But in any case here is the issue- in order for a floor to be floated in a way that is not detrimental, the mass-spring system needs to be tuned to a suitable infrasonic frequency. If you have a relatively lightweight floor assembly the live load from people and stuff in the room is going to change the tuning or more likely short circuit the springs (compress them all the way). If you have say a 4" concrete slab that is properly floated it will weigh 50lbs psf, this way the affect of people and gear on the floor is much less significant to the tuning and not likely to short circuit the springs. Also the slab itself would be rebar/mesh reinforced and help the distribute weight to all the springs.
Yeah, thinking about the floor was my next step. I know floating (concrete) floor isnt that good idea but drew it just as a placeholder. I think it might be way to complicated for me, and the friend who's helping me, to do it properly.

Building is from 1980 I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Products like U-boats and other dampening based systems might provide a slight increase in structural borne sound transmission- but a whole wood frame on top of them is a large resonant system that will negatively affect the rooms acoustics and can create an audible band resonance that also negatively effects isolation. A better idea than that would be an underlayment before putting a pergo style floor on top. And a better idea than that would be to keep the concrete, and use Iso-mounts on subwoofers and bass systems (or dual-opposed subs) and possibly a massive, properly tuned drum riser.
Yeah I think you said that before. Also, doesn't sound natural for me but that doesn't mean I don't believe you Isomounts and tuned drumriser sound like a plan! Thanks again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
All that said, it's likely that as-is the bare slab will not be the weakest link from an isolation perspective. The HVAC system, door seals and overall tightness of construction will have to be very good before the slab is your weakest link. The nice thing with isolating flanking sources is you can do it later and as needed.

True indeed, I'll get a pretty good tightness on doors, walls etc. I'm sure but yeah the hvac system, i'dont know. I have time to test it though.
Old 4th March 2019
  #62
Gear Head
 
youridebruijn's Avatar
 

Well. No way back now. I signed the papers today Doing exact measurements this or next week. Ill get the keys in april/may. Need to be open in september, or if possible earlier. (haven't cancelled my current lease yet )

I'm thinking about 2 (if possible 3) studio/booths downstairs and only 1 (if possible 2) upstairs. (or making them a bit bigger)
Old 4th March 2019
  #63
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by youridebruijn View Post
Building is from 1980 I think.
That's good, not likely the slab is insulated. Do you have a general sense of what normal concrete dirtwork is like in your area? In places with a lot of water they will do crushed stone instead of tamped soil...the best subbase from a slab damping perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by youridebruijn View Post
Yeah I think you said that before. Also, doesn't sound natural for me but that doesn't mean I don't believe you Isomounts and tuned drumriser sound like a plan! Thanks again.
Many things in acoustics aren't intuitive. But look at it this way, if you knock on the floor like you did a door- the concrete will make very little sound. A wood floor will make quite a bit more. That's because the concrete is massive and well damped- this is ideal because it means that acoustic energy can't get it to resonante very much. Throwing carpet on a wood deck will dampen it some, but not nearly as much as the concrete. And we have bass to deal with here which is a lot more energy in total then knocking.
Old 4th March 2019
  #64
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by youridebruijn View Post
Well. No way back now. I signed the papers today Doing exact measurements this or next week. Ill get the keys in april/may. Need to be open in september, or if possible earlier. (haven't cancelled my current lease yet )

Also, I'm thinking about 2 studio/booth upstairs and only 2 downstairs, and making them a bit bigger.
Heb je een kruipruimte in dat pand?
Old 5th March 2019
  #65
Gear Head
 
youridebruijn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
Heb je een kruipruimte in dat pand?
Volgens mij niet en anders maar beperkt. Sowieso niet onder het hele pand. Hoezo? Neem aan dat je dat niet zou willen toch?
Old 5th March 2019
  #66
Gear Head
 
youridebruijn's Avatar
 

Okay. So I think I have figured out the wall and floor for downstairs.

Now we get to the fun part; upstairs, where there's a wooden floor.

Any Idea's to isolate that in the best way from downstairs? Like to hear your thoughts on this challenge.
Old 6th March 2019
  #67
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Now we get to the fun part; upstairs, where there's a wooden floor.

Any Idea's to isolate that in the best way from downstairs? Like to hear your thoughts on this challenge.
The CEILING in the room downstairs will be decoupled from the FLOOR upstairs, in exactly the same way: that ceiling is built as stud frame that rests ONLY on your inner-leaf walls, without touching anything else.

That takes care of isolating the room downstairs from the one upstairs, but isolating the one upstairs from the rest of the world is a different story. That's why you'll see so many recommendations to NOT put a studio on an upper floor... because it's so hard (and expensive) to isolate that from the world.

First, you should identify how much isolation you need for that room, in decibels.... and also determine of there will be any impact noise in that room. Based on that, we can help you look at the options... but be prepared, because this is way harder if you want high levels of isolation, or if there is going to be impact noise!

- Stuart -
Old 6th March 2019
  #68
Lives for gear
 
EvilRoy's Avatar
Re>HVAC - Split AC system, reduces wall/ceiling penetration down to a couple of copper pipes.
Old 6th March 2019
  #69
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
Re>HVAC - Split AC system, reduces wall/ceiling penetration down to a couple of copper pipes.
Only for the "H" and "AC" parts of HVAC... but not for the "V"... That is still the same: large ducts....
Old 6th March 2019
  #70
Lives for gear
 
EvilRoy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Only for the "H" and "AC" parts of HVAC... but not for the "V"... That is still the same: large ducts....
Um.... what?

My recommendation is to avoid large ducts and use a split system.
Old 6th March 2019
  #71
Lives for gear
 

Split systems do not provide fresh air into the room, nor do they remove stale air from the room... so you still need the ducts. All that a split system does, is to cool the air inside the room, or heat it. So it only does the "H" (Heating) and the "AC" (air conditioning), but not the "V" (ventilation). The Ventilation is still done using ducts, and they need to be dimensioned correctly for the flow rate and flow velocity needed in each room, thus the silencers are still needed, and still have to be large. You also need a fan in that case, to move the air through the ducts and the room, so you do still need to check that your static pressure is within the range that the fan can handle.

Quote:
My recommendation is to avoid large ducts
You can't avoid large ducts in a decently isolated studio. Sorry.
Old 6th March 2019
  #72
Lives for gear
 
EvilRoy's Avatar
I open the door occasionally.
Old 6th March 2019
  #73
Lives for gear
Use it--The wood floor. Have the upper level be the "Live" area. The lower level is the dead area.
Old 6th March 2019
  #74
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
I open the door occasionally.
In an acoustically isolated studio, that achieve nothing at all. In order for the air to move, there needs to be a pressure difference between two points. Opening the door does not create a pressure difference. The air just stays where it is...

Not to mention that opening the door trashes your isolation and changes the acoustic response of the room...

Even if the air did move, it's still not an option: Every time you open the door, you would get sudden wild swings in temperature and humidity, which is not good for the musical instruments, the musicians, the equipment, and some mics. Many instruments and some types of mic are sensitive to changes in temperature and/or humidity. For a serious tracking session, you'd need to be re-tuning the instruments all the time, and there would be slight changes in the response of the mics...

Not to mention the musicians... it's not pleasant to be in a small tracking room with no ventilation, when there's a bunch of sweaty musicians jamming hard...

Serious studios have ducts to bring in fresh air, and to exhaust the stale air. It isn't viable to have a studio with no ventilation system.
Old 6th March 2019
  #75
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Any Idea's to isolate that in the best way from downstairs? Like to hear your thoughts on this challenge.
Adding to what I said previously about this, I would suggest that you only put your vocal booths upstairs, not full rehearsal rooms. That makes the job a lot simpler, since you won't need as much isolation, and there won't be any impact noise. Keep all your noisy stuff downstairs, on the concrete slab, where high isolation is feasible, and put the quieter stuff upstairs, on the wood floor, where high isolation is not going to happen easily (or cheaply).
Old 6th March 2019
  #76
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by youridebruijn View Post
Volgens mij niet en anders maar beperkt. Sowieso niet onder het hele pand. Hoezo? Neem aan dat je dat niet zou willen toch?
I would like to know the exact specs of the floor.
It's easy to say that a floor is not a problem but I would like to see calculations. I would even suggest a test; I have seen industrial floors of concrete designed to suspend the weight of forklifttrucks resonate like a pitchfork at somewhere around 1 kHz when high power tweeters where in endurance test.
If you have a space under the floor the effect of dampening by sand (which by itself might be overvalued) is not there, making things worse.

And you have to understand isolation is a matter of balances; weak spots define your total isolation.
Old 6th March 2019
  #77
Lives for gear
 
EvilRoy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
In an acoustically isolated studio, that achieve nothing at all. In order for the air to move, there needs to be a pressure difference between two points. Opening the door does not create a pressure difference. The air just stays where it is...

Not to mention that opening the door trashes your isolation and changes the acoustic response of the room...

Even if the air did move, it's still not an option: Every time you open the door, you would get sudden wild swings in temperature and humidity, which is not good for the musical instruments, the musicians, the equipment, and some mics. Many instruments and some types of mic are sensitive to changes in temperature and/or humidity. For a serious tracking session, you'd need to be re-tuning the instruments all the time, and there would be slight changes in the response of the mics...

Not to mention the musicians... it's not pleasant to be in a small tracking room with no ventilation, when there's a bunch of sweaty musicians jamming hard...

Serious studios have ducts to bring in fresh air, and to exhaust the stale air. It isn't viable to have a studio with no ventilation system.
And yet, it doesn’t seem to be a problem for the studios that use them. I wonder why not?
Old 6th March 2019
  #78
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Only for the "H" and "AC" parts of HVAC... but not for the "V"... That is still the same: large ducts....
To be fair, a split system with active ventilation via HRV/ERV can use smaller (typically 4") ducts for the ventilation (per ASHRAE 62.1-2016). And then smaller baffle boxes etc to go with them (requirements change from ACH to CFM per occupant, with occupancy averaged over the day). Another potential benefit to splits + HRV/ERV is that multiple smaller ventilators can be used so that isolation zones don't have shared ducts, and occupancy sensors can be used to turn them on to increase system efficiency (this isn't actually to code yet, so install it after inspection ).

While there are obviously pros and cons to both systems, there is a lot to like about having constant energy recovered ventilation while the room is occupied, and then having heat/ac as a completely separate system per room when considering the workflow of a studio. The LG multi-F 12k and smaller wall units run at 19dB in the lowest fan speed and have wifi control.

That all said, for 4-6 rooms, splits plus ERV/HRV's would be expensive for the OP's use.
Old 6th March 2019
  #79
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
And yet, it doesn’t seem to be a problem for the studios that use them. I wonder why not?
Like I said: it's not an option for serious studios.
Old 6th March 2019
  #80
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg View Post
I have seen industrial floors of concrete designed to suspend the weight of forklifttrucks resonate like a pitchfork at somewhere around 1 kHz when high power tweeters where in endurance test.
Curious how this was measured, with an accelerometer? Was this a slab on grade?
Old 6th March 2019
  #81
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
To be fair, a split system with active ventilation via HRV/ERV can use smaller (typically 4") ducts for the ventilation
Yep! Meaning that you still need ducts....

Quote:
And then smaller baffle boxes etc to go with them (requirements change from ACH to CFM per occupant, with occupancy averaged over the day).
Yep! Meaning that you still need silencer boxes...

But the insertion loss attained depends on the design of the boxes and the amount of acoustic isolation needed, not so much the diameter of the ducts (although that is a factor, of course).

A 4" hole in the wall is just as detrimental to isolation as a 10" hole. Even a 1" hole is already pretty bad... The silencer takes care of that, of course, and a silencer designed for a room needing 60 dB of isolation is not going to be very different for a 4" duct or an 8" duct. The insertion loss needed has a large impact on the size of the silencer, not just the size of the duct.

Then there's the issue of the air velocity at the register: with small ducts, that can be high. The silencer box can take care of that too, if designed properly.

Quote:
That all said, for 4-6 rooms, splits plus ERV/HRV's would be expensive for the OP's use.
The OP is indeed talking about 4 or 5 rooms, all of which need HVAC. It is certainly possible to have five separate mini-splits for that, one in each room, but it's an awful lot cheaper to have just one central AHU (with HRV or ERV if you want...), to handle all of that, with sensors and a system controller to control the flow into each room, based on usage. For a studio with just one or two rooms, then it's probably cheaper to go with individual units, but for five rooms, a single central AHU is going to be cheaper. And that's regardless of how the fresh air / stale air issue is handled: it will be similar in both cases. One single AHU with one single HRV would be a hell of a lot cheaper (and far more efficient) than a whole bunch of separate ones, and there would only be minor differences in the duct work. Each room is going to need one silencer for the supply duct and one for the exhaust duct in any case, so there's already ten silencers (assuming 5 rooms). Adding two more for the external AHU (with it's attached HRV) is not a big deal.
Old 6th March 2019
  #82
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
Like I said: it's not an option for serious studios.
I figure the dividing line for things like this is less to do with seriousness, which can be hard to define, and more to do with if the place is strictly owner-user or not. A place could get some serious work done, and have some weird things that have to be done if the owner is always there for every part of every session.

If there are other people in there, you really have to idiot proof your whole HVAC system, including the ventilation (along with everything else). I have had my heat left to 90, AC left to 50, windows left open etc. There is a reason commercial spaces limit access to HVAC, windows, use automatic door closers and so on. Not a bad idea here to wire subwoofers so there is a relay that shuts them off when the door to the room is open...some people monitor at STUPID high levels. I have a guy who will throw Ozone on the master and smash the crap out of everything just so he can damage his hearing while 'mixing'...
Old 6th March 2019
  #83
Local jazz legend Peter Sprague has his "Spragueland" studio in Encinitas, CA. It's two story with small rooms with video connections. The results are rather sterile sounding to me, no room sound or interaction that is needed for jazz ensembles.
Old 6th March 2019
  #84
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
Curious how this was measured, with an accelerometer? Was this a slab on grade?
You did't have to measure this, you could hear it and feel it .

It was a second floor.
The testcabin had double walls about 150 cm apart, double doors, a nice ceiling and nothing was done with the floor.
Old 6th March 2019
  #85
Gear Head
 
youridebruijn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
The CEILING in the room downstairs will be decoupled from the FLOOR upstairs, in exactly the same way: that ceiling is built as stud frame that rests ONLY on your inner-leaf walls, without touching anything else.
Yes already drew it like that, thanks. How much room is recommend for the spaces between the walls? Like 5cm or 25 cm? Or is there a way to calculate it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
That takes care of isolating the room downstairs from the one upstairs, but isolating the one upstairs from the rest of the world is a different story. That's why you'll see so many recommendations to NOT put a studio on an upper floor... because it's so hard (and expensive) to isolate that from the world.
yeah I know, well there wont be any full blown band rehearsel or recording just music teaching. But I'm hoping isolation will be good enough that we can use the booths to produce electronicmusic.

I made the same design from downstairs to upstairs

double drywall as ceiling
2 layers rockwool
air gap
2 layers rockwool
woodenfloor
OSB

Upper studio's wont be directly about the downstairs studio, hope that'll help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman2020 View Post
First, you should identify how much isolation you need for that room, in decibels.... and also determine of there will be any impact noise in that room. Based on that, we can help you look at the options... but be prepared, because this is way harder if you want high levels of isolation, or if there is going to be impact noise!

- Stuart -
Impact noise will be limited. But I figure that there will be bass from active monitors.
Old 6th March 2019
  #86
Gear Head
 
youridebruijn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilRoy View Post
Um.... what?

My recommendation is to avoid large ducts and use a split system.
I checked the current system: We use a 10cm pipe system with an seperate AC (copper pipes) on the current studio's, it's isolating the sound well enough and moves enough m3 so I figure if we build it the same way it will still do.
Old 6th March 2019
  #87
Gear Head
 
youridebruijn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
I figure the dividing line for things like this is less to do with seriousness, which can be hard to define, and more to do with if the place is strictly owner-user or not. A place could get some serious work done, and have some weird things that have to be done if the owner is always there for every part of every session.
I will only be there for 3 days a week, place will be open for 7 days a week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
If there are other people in there, you really have to idiot proof your whole HVAC system, including the ventilation (along with everything else). I have had my heat left to 90, AC left to 50, windows left open etc. There is a reason commercial spaces limit access to HVAC, windows, use automatic door closers and so on. Not a bad idea here to wire subwoofers so there is a relay that shuts them off when the door to the room is open...some people monitor at STUPID high levels. I have a guy who will throw Ozone on the master and smash the crap out of everything just so he can damage his hearing while 'mixing'...
True, we're with a team of about 12 and not everybody is as responsible as I would like but I do select the people I work with myself. But yehah, people leave stuff on and such (light ac, amp, pa's) I even had somebody not closing the front door one time, that's why there's 1 person present evreny night responsible for closing and shutting down everyday so it happens properly.
Old 12th March 2019
  #88
Gear Head
 
youridebruijn's Avatar
 

I'll be updating the design in the coming weeks and starting the build end april. Ill keep this thread fed with questions, photo's and more stuff.

Update: March 12

- Changed the design to 2 rooms downstairs, and 2 upstairs made them bit bigger too, 3,5x4m, and decided to only do acoustic drums and (small) bandsessions when no (other) lessons are planned.

- The floor is solid concrete no crawlspaces anywhere. I'll be testing the 1 studio with no added floors first before thinking any other solution.

- The current state of the (ceiling/walls/floor) is so bad that I got permission to buildor remove anything I want as long as I remove everything again when I end the lease. Which might be 10 years like the last place I rented. So that's looking good for experimenting with maybe some heavier walls.
Old 13th March 2019
  #89
Gear Maniac
 

Heavier walls makes it even more important to give that floor a good look.
Old 13th May 2019
  #90
Gear Head
 
youridebruijn's Avatar
 

Update may 13th:

It's turning out great. Ill get some photo's of the build uploaded asap.

Thanks for all the advice wouldnt have been possible without you guys.

Back soon

Update may 18th:
Photo's ->
(I'm actually 1 week further than this, studio 3 (the one in the back is allmost ready for paint, only 1 wall and the ceiling need the 2nd layer drywall) It's already down about 40/50db
Attached Thumbnails
Building a studio on 2 levels-day-1.jpg   Building a studio on 2 levels-day-4-removal-.jpg   Building a studio on 2 levels-day-5-rockwool-.jpg   Building a studio on 2 levels-day-7-outer-wall-.jpg   Building a studio on 2 levels-day-8-studio-3-.jpg  

Building a studio on 2 levels-day-9-studio-2-.jpg   Building a studio on 2 levels-day-11-studio-1-.jpg   Building a studio on 2 levels-day-14-corridor-wall-.jpg  
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Forum Jump
Forum Jump