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3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions? Studio Monitors
Old 5 days ago
  #1
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3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?

I think this will contribute the forum because I will post a whole lot of details and explanations and questions as well and all with nice pictures. Not just some random little explanation.

For the sake of future people who want to build their studio at home for little money, I ask the gurus here to answer the questions and so everybody can see and read everything at one place and also see the 3D illustrations I made. I am still modeling it so screenshots might look lame now but final renders will be posted later during the day or maybe tomorrow.

So here we go I will write what I know so far and what I've learned and ask questions and you guys can tell me if I am wrong since as my username states, I am a noob. If you are a noob and you think I just got too much into it, think twice. All of this is very important if you want to have decent sound. Do not get scared but instead join the discussion please and ask.

1. Image 1: How big should a vocals recording studio be at least? I have room without panels 55m3 and with panels it comes down to 43m3. In some versions of my design might go to 39m3. Is that okay?

(I have learned that small vocal booth with small dimensions - stupid idea, low frequencies make standing waves, sounds horrible!! Better treat your larger room. I was dumb, I made a booth out of foam only no mineral wool and realized how stupid I was haha)

2. Image 2 Room dimension without sound absorbing panels are in the ratio 472 length 374 width and 311 height. Are they any good? Ratios are important from what I have learned here.

(I get a whole lot of green colors in those "room mode calculators" that you can google if you are a noob like me and don't know what it is. Those calculators will tell you if your room ratio is good or not.)

3. Image 3 Do we calculate the actual wall ratios or the inner ratios after we have applied the mineral wool panels onto the walls?

4. image 4 Should we cover the entire room in mineral wool panels for vocal recording or leave at least a little bit of the wall open?

5. So I have read 4 inch air gap between the wall and the mineral wool that should also be 4 inch. So... Can I let myself go and have 2 inch air gap but 6 inch wool instead? How would that affect the absorbtion?

6. image 6 What if the wooden frames are actually deep 24 cm while my mineral wool and the airgap only 20. Is it okay that those wooden frames extrude 4 cm more towards the inner part of the room?

I know it was stupid i bought Ikea bookshelves for this so I couldn't choose the depth. I hate it when people start explaining stuff like this with text so I made a picture for this specific problem. Will this damage the sound? Should I move the wool just forward and make it even with the frame? Will that reduce the volume of the room and then>> that is bad? Right?

7. image 7 and image 7a Since Ikea bookshelves have their shape, I can't really place them in the corners properly. There is literally a triangle of empty space on both sides between the bookshelves and the wall. Is that bad?


8. Bass traps in the corners, should they be thicker than 15 cm wool?

9. image 9 should we maybe stuff more wool behind those bass traps?

10. placing acoustic foam over the mineral wool panels? Is that okay? Should such tings be done right in front of a microphone? It could negate the high frequencies too much maybe?!

(tip for noobs like me who are reading things and wondering what the hell am I saying: mineral wool absorbs everything, acoustic foam only high frequencies if it is not very thick, like 40 cm or something)

11. image 11 Where to put diffusers?

12. On the rear wall, there is a window in the middle and the wall is thinner. How will this influence the acoustics? Should I put something there? Please check image

13. On the left wall and the front wall, there are doors, what to do about it? Please check image

Other information for noobs like me, things I have managed to discover. Gurus may correct me if I am wrong:

- you don't need a small vocal booth
- treat your room
- don't buy expensive foam and panels, build your own. Simple wooden frame and some mineral wool
-capture bass with those panels but just thicker panels at the corners
-you can cover BASS traps with thin plastic but not broadband panels

I once again beg gurus here to take a look at the renderings and images and share their knowledge, which we crave so much in situations like these

Thank you...
Attached Thumbnails
3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-image-2.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-image-3.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-image-4.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-image-6.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-image-7.jpg  

3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-image-7a.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-image-9.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-image-11.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-image-12.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-image-13.jpg  

3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-image-1.jpg  
Old 5 days ago
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oh finally yes my post has worked. Yes in case you are wondering, I am turning my living room into a studio haha I look forward to your replies.
Old 5 days ago
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Really? No one? Come on guys... please reply, I'm spending my last money on this thing :D
Old 4 days ago
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobInAudio View Post
Really? No one? Come on guys... please reply, I'm spending my last money on this thing :D
Hi there!

What was your question?

To be honest I think you scare people off by asking at least 50 different question which each need long answers. I'll pick one.

Quote:
2. Image 2 Room dimension without sound absorbing panels are in the ratio 472 length 374 width and 311 height. Are they any good?...
Yes fairly good. And you have a nice ceiling hight!

When adding absorbent panels the "acoustical" dimensions of the room actually increases. Room modes are shifted down in frequency a little.
Strange isn't it! If you add a lot of absorption you don't see any room modes in the WaterFall type measurement.

I guess you've seen GS using REW software here. Go get a measuring mic (like Umik-1) and start your acoustical measurement journey.

Good Luck
Old 4 days ago
  #5
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Thanks a lot!!!!!!! That makes one important question less! I am super thankful!!

So for all the noobs like me:

1. The room is big enough
2. Ratios I've posted are fairly good and a nice ceiling hight!
3. Ratios of the room without absorbing panels are to be calculated, absorption panels add a little bit of increase to the "acoustic dimensions" of the room. (quite the opposite of what I've assumed)

We still got 10 questions down to go :D

The reason I asked so many questions is because those little details are probably what every noob has to deal. So we can have all explanations and illustrations in one place.

That is why I made it in 3D so they don't have to read too much into stuff. :D Tomorrow I will have nice realistic renders of the studio with v-ray and better lightning. You can all use my illustrations and I will upload the 3d model for showcasing and maybe some video explanations of all the details. I will upload a 3ds max file as well so you can move stuff around the way you want and in blender for those who don't support piracy :D

I hope some other gurus drop their wisdom on the other questions asked.

Sincerely and thank you so much for this answer!
Old 3 days ago
  #6
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1. Really no definite answers for that, but around 100square feet as a minimum, before treatment would be a suggestion. Sound sees rigid boundaries, just calculate rooms off of solid walls.

2. Ratios are not too terribly important, just avoid bad ones. No matter what, you need tons of treatment.

3. See question 1

4. thats not a straight forward question. It depens on lots of variables. In a tiny room, most likely yes. In a larger room, depends. The important part would be to use treatment that can absorb down to around 80hz in a vocal booth. Then decide if you want the ambience the room provides or if you want dry vocals. Theres no right or wrong in live rooms.

5. Ummm... minimum is 4" fiber/4"gap, or 8" fiber, BUT, material and thickness is determined by GFR and target frequency.

6. Depends on purpose and location, but increasing airgap or fiber to fill the whole frame would be smarter.

7. Ehh... not "bad", if it holds fiber of appropriate thickness/GFR, but corners are GREAT places to put thick treatment for attacking modes, make sure you use them to your advantage.

8. Honestly, yes. See 7.

9. Yup

10. There is nothing wrong with acoustic foam if it is used in an appropriate thickness (Which it rarely is). Placing it over another porous absorber offers little benefit over using just more of what its placed over. Foam is just not very efficient from a cost vs performance aspect.

11. Diffusion isnt really used in small rooms. In a larger room, its used to scatter reflections away from the LP to acheive your desired ISD gap and to keep HF energy in the room without absorbing it and making the room too dead.

12. Depends, but a thin window will allow some LF energy to escape the room. Measure with REW to see whats needed.

13. Treat them, the best you can for their location.

Extra stuff

The corner may not be a good location for your gear/LP. Test with REW to determine optimal locations.
Old 3 days ago
  #7
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Waow Jason thank you so much for clarifying all of these points!!
I think we made a great post here.

I will now do proper research on REW GFR and ISD gap since I have no clue how to go about it and I will post it then here. I already found some nice articles to read into.

After done everything properly I will post entire process on here as well so everyone can have it all short at one place.
I will post upload 3d file online and upload 3ds max and blender project files as well as realistic vray renders so anyone can use it for whatever reason they might need a 3D studio models for.

I realized I am addicted to sound now. I never cared much about it before but I got a very silent mic, rhode nt1 and a steinberg u22 audiointerface and when i first heard it it was soooo much better than my 30 euro mic before! I felt soo nice and I started developing this addiction to nice sounds. So playing some instrument in my room on a better microphone wasn't fun anymore, I realized I will build a booth but then again it sounded like c.... So then I realized well I'll me damned I am going to get rid of my living room, I will design it and make it look so weird and elegant with nice lights and what not and all of that just to fit in with clear sounds. I don't feel okay if I listen to my sound and sit in a living room type of space. I realized atmosphere has to be good! So I soon started drawing and I ended up with a whole lot of money being spent on acoustic treatment and atmosphere in the room to suit it. hahahhaha so I look forward to this so much and I can't get enough of clear nice audio so I guess that is audiophile :S I never knew what this feels like and if anyone felt such urge before.
Old 3 days ago
  #8
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If you are really this passionate, then i highly recommend that you find copies of the following books and read them a few times.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:/...eEbCODHBUxU8nE
https://www.google.com/url?q=https:/...0CNIgQbVx9y7pH
Old 1 day ago
  #9
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Thank you Jason, I ordered them already...

Great that this forum allows external links.

Here are some more renders better looking.
Attached Thumbnails
3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-render-333.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-render-222.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-untitled.jpg  
Old 1 day ago
  #10
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Hello Jason,

sorry I bother you again.. I have researched GFR and target frequencies.

Apparently this calculator is too complicated to use for me. I am somewhat lost. But before I even begin this, I would have to measure my room with Room EQ Wizard, right? But for that, everyone says I need some special microphone?!?

Sadly I literally spent my last cash on these things and is there no way to go around this? Do I really have to buy this special microphone for EQ room measurments, can't I just use my rhode nt1?

hmm :( It would be extremely dumb buying 15 cm wool panels for the entire room just to realize I did something wrong here and that 100 bucks mic could have saved me. I hope I am not too annoying with the questions...
Old 1 day ago
  #11
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haha first I thought I won't bother with it since I am not a professional but then I went out of my apartment for a walk and gave it a thought...

Actually this is very very important!!! Room EQ wizard is very important because what if room bounces frequencies that I barely absorb and yet you absorb the frequencies that are not that bad on the mic?! This would horribly ruin the sound even though a lot was invested in the panels and stuff!!

SO I realized there is no way around it I have to do it. I just found an article that had some instructions how to use a regular mic for room EQ measurments and while it is not a perfect solution if it is a nice realistic mic that doesnt modify the sound much just like my rhode nt1 is, then there are couple of tricks I can do to do at least somewhat a decent job.

After doing this and building everything IMPORTANT TO KNOW is all my panels will be mobile so I can easily move them from one place to another or i can push them all little bit inward or outward to do some final tweaking. I don't want to do some giant mistakes though for example buying too thick rockwool for sidewalls.... AS for the bass from what Ive understood nothing is too thick, no matter what people write, people keep saying put thicker thicker stuff into corners thickest as possible...

I will now do proper room EQ measurments.

by the time I sort this all out, I will create a new topic with full explanation for every detail out there and let myself go and even make couple of videos explaining everything. As a noob these things are quite hard to calculate and find my way around. So I hope it will be helpful everyone


Once again thank you Jason! you are the man!
Old 1 day ago
  #12
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My advice for now is slow down. Wait for the books and read them. You cant design a room before you know the basics and expect it to work correctly. The best studio design advice I've read is by Andre Vare, "Good studio building is 90% design, and 10% construction"
Heed those words. Treating a room correctly is expensive, but redoing treatment because of poor design is twice as expensive.
Old 1 day ago
  #13
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Ohhh Jason thank you so much for an advice... Your advice really pushed me in a right direction but I am soo into this now, can't stop, can't slow down.
God bless this forum

I think I have some OCD.


I realized NT1 is not suited to be used as measuring device no matter what that article said.

I just sold my motorbike and ordered these two things:

I just ordered Beyerdynamic MM-1 Electret thats around 200 usd I think
aand
2x Presonus Eris E8 Active Monitors

I also ordered couple of fancy foams and led lights just for the sake of decorations

by the time they arrive that is in 3-4 days I will reserach wayy wayy deeper into everything you've told me.


Can't stop, won't stop yeahh :D ... I got into some audiophile frenzy... I can't describe this vibe, I'm literally not sleeping for days. I'm literally reading into this 24/7, my girlfriend doesn't talk to me for 2 days.

Gonna build that studio!! :D :D :D

Attached Thumbnails
3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-orders...-kkk.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-orders-5.jpg   3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-order-44.jpg  
Old 1 day ago
  #14
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I wonder if one of these would do any good? hmmm
*slowly moves his mouse to checkout*
I guess this means I am single from tomorrow on

Gotta get those dBs in place

Maybe Andre Vare said that we should take time to design...

But DMX said:

"Give a dog a bone
Leave a dog alone
Let a dog roam
And he'll find his way home"

Let us take a moment and appreciate the wise words of a great leader of men and women, Mr. DMX.
Attached Thumbnails
3D studio design, is it any good? Suggestions?-maybe.jpg  
Old 1 day ago
  #15
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Dmx doesnt design studios for a living.
Old 17 hours ago
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobInAudio View Post
Can't stop, won't stop yeahh :D ... I got into some audiophile frenzy... I can't describe this vibe, I'm literally not sleeping for days. I'm literally reading into this 24/7, my girlfriend doesn't talk to me for 2 days.

Gonna build that studio!! :D :D :D
I honestly cannot tell whether you're joking here... but if you're not, then you need to slow down otherwise this isn't going to end well.
Old 17 hours ago
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobInAudio View Post
Maybe Andre Vare said that we should take time to design...
I will make it clear: spend 90% of your time on design.
Here is a freebie while you wait for Everest and Pohlman and Gervais. It is 29 years old and worth much more than what BBC charges for it (free). It is geared to professional studio design but the principles presented are still valid. Physics does not change. Did I mention it is free?

Andre
Attached Files

Last edited by avare; 16 hours ago at 01:25 PM..
Old 15 hours ago
  #18
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@avare thanks! I am already reading into it. It is around 140 pages. I value your advice and regret what I said earlier, >> That salesman really tricked me about some topics. This book the end it has terms definitions all listed and shortly explained what each term and its meaning. That is a life savior!


@Skol303 I am not kidding friend... I can't stop, won't stop. I became addicted to this, I won't stop until I get a perfect studio sounds . I will get an extra job if It means more expenses. I'm goin all in, ALL IN. Can't describe it but this vibe won't let me sleep. I woke up 3 am last night, kpet reading about this

Ordered a whole lot of gear

JASON diverted me from making a huge mistake, ordering rockwool before doing testings and measurings!! Big thanks to Jason

Gonna make that studio
Old 15 hours ago
  #19
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ONce I am done with this studio, I will change my nickname to something else other than NoobInAudio
Old 15 hours ago
  #20
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also to build real studio, I will have to do some real infrastructure changes, this isn't my building so >> not allowed. But my dad has a house somewhere in a village <<< I am graduating this year and then >>> going there with some trucks, wood, panels, gear and building a real studio in nature! It is going to rock.

I will keep posting renders videos and photos of how it all goes. I am going to learn on this studio now I am going to make.
Old 12 hours ago
  #21
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It has not been mentioned yet, but your knowing to do renderings is fantastic/

Regarding the length of Rose, yes it is a short document. It will be the most difficult one to read because all the ideas are new. After Rose, Everest and Pohlman and Gervais will much easier because they are building on a theme introduced by Rose.

Enjoy!

Andre
Old 11 hours ago
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
It has not been mentioned yet, but your knowing to do renderings is fantastic/

Regarding the length of Rose, yes it is a short document. It will be the most difficult one to read because all the ideas are new. After Rose, Everest and Pohlman and Gervais will much easier because they are building on a theme introduced by Rose.

Enjoy!

Andre
Thanks a lot! ! ! Yes I can make them renders even more realistic.
For renders I usually work with 3ds max and vray.

I will make sure I render out every detail of the studio in 3D and I will upload renders, files and project files all ready for just click and interactively explore + render as you wish part however you wish so all of you can use them for commercial and non commercial purposes in your animation videos or illustrations and what not.

Yes I am reading into these panels A1 and A2 types now with perforated covers. Page 94.
I don't want to ask dumb questions or make inaccurate 3D models before researching properly into this.
Old 9 hours ago
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avare View Post
It has not been mentioned yet, but your knowing to do renderings is fantastic/

Regarding the length of Rose, yes it is a short document. It will be the most difficult one to read because all the ideas are new. After Rose, Everest and Pohlman and Gervais will much easier because they are building on a theme introduced by Rose.

Enjoy!

Andre
Dear Andre,

I have read the book to the page number 100. I have been reading ever since you sent it. I skipped only some parts that were not related to me or I could not change them.

I have one question though. On the page 97 it said that I can put a 0.5 or 20 percent perforated hardboard cover over my panel instead of fabric????? Is this true? Wouldn't that reflect a whole lot of high frequencies???
Why cover 80% of the panel to begin with and not allow it to absorb as much as it can?


This is extremely important for me because of many reasons:
1. estethics since fabrics get dirty cant wipe them
2. it would be AWESOME to have that option because Ikea supplied me with hardboard covers for these bookshelves that were supposed to go on the back side. They are beautiful. If I put first fabric to contain the wool and not allow it to leave and then >>> perforated hardboard cover to close the panel from the front, would that be okay?


I am so excited about this
Old 9 hours ago
  #24
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avare's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoobInAudio View Post
I will make sure I render out every detail of the studio ...

Yes I am reading into these panels A1 and A2 types now with perforated covers. Page 94.
I don't want to ask dumb questions or make inaccurate 3D models before researching properly into this.
As I am certain you noticed from the designs of some of the absorbers the devil is in the details. Your renders will help a lot assisting you.

Before you get too excited with A1 and A2 have a look at the A10 and A11, detailed in BBC RD 1992/11 and RD1992/10. Both are attached. I think you can start to see all the acoustics, and research, involved.

Have fun!
Attached Files
File Type: pdf RD 1992-10.pdf (1.38 MB, 5 views) File Type: pdf RD 1992-11.pdf (562.6 KB, 2 views)
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